End the Israeli occupation??

[Arctish]

One of the sticking points is the deep dishonesty of Zionists and their apologists who refuse to admit that the Palestinians acknowledged Israel's right to exist a generation ago.

As for Abbas--he wants 67 borders, right of return to full effect and no acceptance of Israel's right to exist. That's not a meaningful offer.

Not true.

Abbas wants 1967 borders to be the starting point for negotiated land swaps, Right of Return in principle with a token return of elderly refugees, and was the principal Palestinian diplomat involved in the PLO's formal recognition of Israel.

1) Continuing to repeat the claim that they acknowledged Israel doesn't make it so. They said they would, they didn't actually do so.

2) Abbas has rejected land swaps.

3) For Abbas to attempt to negotiate an agreement that involved a token right of return would be treason. And where's the claim he's trying this??? The only thing I've heard on this is that he doesn't consider it something that he can negotiate, but rather a decision for the people. (And they're certainly not going to budge on it given how much propaganda they have been subjected to that it's their winning move.)

You know, for a few minutes there I was actually composing a rebuttal with links to the diplomatic groundwork preceding the Oslo Accords, the formal handshake between Rabin and Arafat, the latest offer regarding a symbolic return of a handful of Palestinian refugees in exchange for a statement acknowledging the legitimacy of their right to do so, etc. But then I thought, why bother? You never give any indication that you've read any of the articles I've shown you about the Oslo Accords, not even the Accords themselves, and you don't care about actual events. And besides, all of this is off topic.

You asked how it was possible for the Occupation to end. The answer is obvious, but that doesn't mean you'll admit it exists.

 

[Will Wiley]

One way is for us all to boycott Israel. We can end the occupation. we can do it!!
https://bdsmovement.net/

In 2005, Palestinian civil society issued a call for a campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights. A truly global movement against Israeli Apartheid is rapidly emerging in response to this call.

If everyone who was opposed to the occupation boycotted Israel it would end very quickly

 

[untermensche]

You know, for a few minutes there I was actually composing a rebuttal with links to the diplomatic groundwork preceding the Oslo Accords, the formal handshake between Rabin and Arafat, the latest offer regarding a symbolic return of a handful of Palestinian refugees in exchange for a statement acknowledging the legitimacy of their right to do so, etc. But then I thought, why bother? You never give any indication that you've read any of the articles I've shown you about the Oslo Accords, not even the Accords themselves, and you don't care about actual events. And besides, all of this is off topic.

You asked how it was possible for the Occupation to end. The answer is obvious, but that doesn't mean you'll admit it exists.

It is just a way to prevent negotiation anyway.

Commanding the other party to think the proper thoughts before you will negotiate with them is just a way to pretend you want to negotiate.

Recognition is part of the negotiating process. Parties negotiate in the middle of active wars where they are killing each other. If they can do that they can negotiate if a few ideas are not settled.

Recognition is not some immediate need to begin negotiations.

It is a position only an idiot can take seriously. If you are meeting with another party you obviously recognize them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The US had an indigenous population it didn't like either.

And claimed it was just protecting itself from terrorism as it carried out genocide.

Maybe we should start referring to Gaza as the "Palestinian Reservation."


Except of course, Israel would never let them build casinos.

Casinos don't shoot rockets, Israel would have no problem with it.

Hamas, though, would totally wouldn't accept them, though.

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One of the sticking points is the deep dishonesty of Zionists and their apologists who refuse to admit that the Palestinians acknowledged Israel's right to exist a generation ago.

As for Abbas--he wants 67 borders, right of return to full effect and no acceptance of Israel's right to exist. That's not a meaningful offer.

Not true.

Abbas wants 1967 borders to be the starting point for negotiated land swaps, Right of Return in principle with a token return of elderly refugees, and was the principal Palestinian diplomat involved in the PLO's formal recognition of Israel.

1) Continuing to repeat the claim that they acknowledged Israel doesn't make it so. They said they would, they didn't actually do so.

2) Abbas has rejected land swaps.

3) For Abbas to attempt to negotiate an agreement that involved a token right of return would be treason. And where's the claim he's trying this??? The only thing I've heard on this is that he doesn't consider it something that he can negotiate, but rather a decision for the people. (And they're certainly not going to budge on it given how much propaganda they have been subjected to that it's their winning move.)

You know, for a few minutes there I was actually composing a rebuttal with links to the diplomatic groundwork preceding the Oslo Accords, the formal handshake between Rabin and Arafat, the latest offer regarding a symbolic return of a handful of Palestinian refugees in exchange for a statement acknowledging the legitimacy of their right to do so, etc. But then I thought, why bother? You never give any indication that you've read any of the articles I've shown you about the Oslo Accords, not even the Accords themselves, and you don't care about actual events. And besides, all of this is off topic.

You asked how it was possible for the Occupation to end. The answer is obvious, but that doesn't mean you'll admit it exists.

You're interpreting things with rose-colored glasses.

You're mistaking them saying they would accept Israel's existence with actually doing so. It was a hollow promise, not an act.

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One way is for us all to boycott Israel. We can end the occupation. we can do it!!
https://bdsmovement.net/

In 2005, Palestinian civil society issued a call for a campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights. A truly global movement against Israeli Apartheid is rapidly emerging in response to this call.

If everyone who was opposed to the occupation boycotted Israel it would end very quickly

BDS? The guys recently convicted of Holocaust denial?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They've ALREADY accepted the existence of Israel. The EXISTENCE of Israel is a fact they already know they cannot change, and it's not like they're pretending it doesn't exist for some reason.

What they're declined to acknowledge was "Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State" which at this point is basically irrelevant to the negotiations.

And this is Abbas we're talking about, not Haniyeh. Establishing 1967 border has been his basic position since day 1.

One of the sticking points is their unwillingness to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist.

They already did that in the 90s. Abbas has explicitly done this several times.

Irrelevant anyway since NO country anywhere on Earth actually has a right to exist, and that's not what recognition means. Which, incidentally, is why Israel has never once recognized Palestine's right to exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the sticking points is their unwillingness to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist.

They already did that in the 90s. Abbas has explicitly done this several times.

Irrelevant anyway since NO country anywhere on Earth actually has a right to exist, and that's not what recognition means. Which, incidentally, is why Israel has never once recognized Palestine's right to exist.

He's repeatedly said that they will acknowledge the right of Israel to exist but they don't actually do anything.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

And them admitting they don't:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=433

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They already did that in the 90s. Abbas has explicitly done this several times.

Irrelevant anyway since NO country anywhere on Earth actually has a right to exist, and that's not what recognition means. Which, incidentally, is why Israel has never once recognized Palestine's right to exist.

He's repeatedly said that they will acknowledge the right of Israel to exist but they don't actually do anything.

What do you need to "do" to recognize someone's right to exist? If you SAY you do, then you do, that's LITERALLY how that works.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

Article says:
The current demand by the Quartet, US, Russia, UN and the European Union, is that Hamas recognise Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But even if the Quartet were to more properly insist on recognition of Israel’s ‘right to existence’, Hamas is a political party and not a State and thus in no position to exercise any kind of legal recognition at all. Assuming, therefore, that the demand is instead being made for political reasons, we must question why it is made without any reciprocal demands by Israel.

Furthermore:
Arafat long ago acknowledged, as head of the PLO, the ‘right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security’.

So what does the current demand from Israel and the EU actually mean? Is it a real issue?

Since the European Union’s demand that Hamas recognise Israel has no basis in international law, and in the absence of any reciprocal demands on Israel, we can only conclude that the EU, knowingly or not, is seeking to impose a one-sided political agenda that is counter-productive in finding a just peace.

You don't even read your own links, do you?

And them admitting they don't:

"Them?" That's Palestine Media Watch, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine propaganda website. That isn't "them" admitting that they don't (google search turns up about a dozen sources that say they do) that's a Zionist website CLAIMING they don't without a direct quote corroborating it.

Again: READ YOUR OWN FUCKING LINKS once in a while.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He's repeatedly said that they will acknowledge the right of Israel to exist but they don't actually do anything.

What do you need to "do" to recognize someone's right to exist? If you SAY you do, then you do, that's LITERALLY how that works.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

Article says:
The current demand by the Quartet, US, Russia, UN and the European Union, is that Hamas recognise Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But even if the Quartet were to more properly insist on recognition of Israel’s ‘right to existence’, Hamas is a political party and not a State and thus in no position to exercise any kind of legal recognition at all. Assuming, therefore, that the demand is instead being made for political reasons, we must question why it is made without any reciprocal demands by Israel.

Furthermore:
Arafat long ago acknowledged, as head of the PLO, the ‘right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security’.

So what does the current demand from Israel and the EU actually mean? Is it a real issue?

Since the European Union’s demand that Hamas recognise Israel has no basis in international law, and in the absence of any reciprocal demands on Israel, we can only conclude that the EU, knowingly or not, is seeking to impose a one-sided political agenda that is counter-productive in finding a just peace.

You don't even read your own links, do you?

And them admitting they don't:

"Them?" That's Palestine Media Watch, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine propaganda website. That isn't "them" admitting that they don't (google search turns up about a dozen sources that say they do) that's a Zionist website CLAIMING they don't without a direct quote corroborating it.

Again: READ YOUR OWN FUCKING LINKS once in a while.

You realize that was what the terrorists said about it?

If they actually accepted the existence of Israel they wouldn't be trying to claim it's irrelevant.

 

[Will Wiley]

You realize that was what the terrorists said about it?

If they actually accepted the existence of Israel they wouldn't be trying to claim it's irrelevant.

Israel are the terrorists. Which is why we should all boycott Israel. We can end the criminal actions of the state of Israel if we boycott Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS Movement) is a global campaign attempting to increase economic and political pressure on Israel to comply with the stated goals of the movement: the end of Israel's occupation and colonization of Palestinian land and the Golan Heights, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.

The campaign is organised and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.[1] The campaign was started on 9 July 2005 by over 170 Palestinian non-governmental organizations in support of the Palestinian cause for boycott, divestment and international sanctions against Israel. Citing a body of UN resolutions and specifically echoing the anti-apartheid campaigns against white minority rule in apartheid era South Africa,[2] the BDS campaign called for "various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law".[3]

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What do you need to "do" to recognize someone's right to exist? If you SAY you do, then you do, that's LITERALLY how that works.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

Article says:
The current demand by the Quartet, US, Russia, UN and the European Union, is that Hamas recognise Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But even if the Quartet were to more properly insist on recognition of Israel’s ‘right to existence’, Hamas is a political party and not a State and thus in no position to exercise any kind of legal recognition at all. Assuming, therefore, that the demand is instead being made for political reasons, we must question why it is made without any reciprocal demands by Israel.

Furthermore:
Arafat long ago acknowledged, as head of the PLO, the ‘right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security’.

So what does the current demand from Israel and the EU actually mean? Is it a real issue?

Since the European Union’s demand that Hamas recognise Israel has no basis in international law, and in the absence of any reciprocal demands on Israel, we can only conclude that the EU, knowingly or not, is seeking to impose a one-sided political agenda that is counter-productive in finding a just peace.

You don't even read your own links, do you?

And them admitting they don't:

"Them?" That's Palestine Media Watch, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine propaganda website. That isn't "them" admitting that they don't (google search turns up about a dozen sources that say they do) that's a Zionist website CLAIMING they don't without a direct quote corroborating it.

Again: READ YOUR OWN FUCKING LINKS once in a while.

You realize that was what the terrorists Palestinians said about it?

You spelled it wrong again. Fixed it for you.

If they actually accepted the existence of Israel they wouldn't be trying to claim it's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because their GOVERNMENT already accepted it. Hamas can no more recognize Israel's "right to exist" than the Tea Party can open an embassy in Beijing. OTOH, China refusing to negotiate with the United States BECAUSE of the lack of a Tea Party Embassy would give us a really clear picture of their intentions.

 

[untermensche]

When does Israel recognize the right of Palestinians to have a state?

When does it stop torturing them and give them their rights?

When does it stop claiming resistance to oppression is terrorism?

 

[whichphilosophy]

What do you need to "do" to recognize someone's right to exist? If you SAY you do, then you do, that's LITERALLY how that works.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

Article says:
The current demand by the Quartet, US, Russia, UN and the European Union, is that Hamas recognise Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But even if the Quartet were to more properly insist on recognition of Israel’s ‘right to existence’, Hamas is a political party and not a State and thus in no position to exercise any kind of legal recognition at all. Assuming, therefore, that the demand is instead being made for political reasons, we must question why it is made without any reciprocal demands by Israel.

Furthermore:
Arafat long ago acknowledged, as head of the PLO, the ‘right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security’.

So what does the current demand from Israel and the EU actually mean? Is it a real issue?

Since the European Union’s demand that Hamas recognise Israel has no basis in international law, and in the absence of any reciprocal demands on Israel, we can only conclude that the EU, knowingly or not, is seeking to impose a one-sided political agenda that is counter-productive in finding a just peace.

You don't even read your own links, do you?

And them admitting they don't:

"Them?" That's Palestine Media Watch, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine propaganda website. That isn't "them" admitting that they don't (google search turns up about a dozen sources that say they do) that's a Zionist website CLAIMING they don't without a direct quote corroborating it.

Again: READ YOUR OWN FUCKING LINKS once in a while.

You realize that was what the terrorists Palestinians said about it?

You spelled it wrong again. Fixed it for you.

If they actually accepted the existence of Israel they wouldn't be trying to claim it's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because their GOVERNMENT already accepted it. Hamas can no more recognize Israel's "right to exist" than the Tea Party can open an embassy in Beijing. OTOH, China refusing to negotiate with the United States BECAUSE of the lack of a Tea Party Embassy would give us a really clear picture of their intentions.

There have been indications for some time that Hamas would consider recognizing Israel but vague wording about recognizing the right of coexistence but without giving up the rights over Palestinian lands held for generations.

See one report here, but there are others from different sides of the spectrum.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...e-leadership-hamas-divided.html#ixzz45RNCeipK

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There have been indications for some time that Hamas would consider recognizing Israel but vague wording about recognizing the right of coexistence but without giving up the rights over Palestinian lands held for generations.

Cool story, bro.

But Hamas is not the Palestinian Authority. Hamas is a political party WITHIN the Palestinian authority. Political parties cannot, by definition, recognize the existence of (or rights thereof) of another country. They can only recommend that their government do or not do so as part of their political platform.

And while Hamas considers Israel to be illegitimate, the Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel and affirms its right to exist. It's a dead horse, and Israel continues to beat it for political reasons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you need to "do" to recognize someone's right to exist? If you SAY you do, then you do, that's LITERALLY how that works.

Here's the terrorists basically admitting the lack:

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-right-exist-it-real-issue/6833

Article says:
The current demand by the Quartet, US, Russia, UN and the European Union, is that Hamas recognise Israel’s ‘right to exist’. But even if the Quartet were to more properly insist on recognition of Israel’s ‘right to existence’, Hamas is a political party and not a State and thus in no position to exercise any kind of legal recognition at all. Assuming, therefore, that the demand is instead being made for political reasons, we must question why it is made without any reciprocal demands by Israel.

Furthermore:
Arafat long ago acknowledged, as head of the PLO, the ‘right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security’.

So what does the current demand from Israel and the EU actually mean? Is it a real issue?

Since the European Union’s demand that Hamas recognise Israel has no basis in international law, and in the absence of any reciprocal demands on Israel, we can only conclude that the EU, knowingly or not, is seeking to impose a one-sided political agenda that is counter-productive in finding a just peace.

You don't even read your own links, do you?

And them admitting they don't:

"Them?" That's Palestine Media Watch, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine propaganda website. That isn't "them" admitting that they don't (google search turns up about a dozen sources that say they do) that's a Zionist website CLAIMING they don't without a direct quote corroborating it.

Again: READ YOUR OWN FUCKING LINKS once in a while.

You realize that was what the terrorists Palestinians said about it?

You spelled it wrong again. Fixed it for you.

If they actually accepted the existence of Israel they wouldn't be trying to claim it's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because their GOVERNMENT already accepted it. Hamas can no more recognize Israel's "right to exist" than the Tea Party can open an embassy in Beijing. OTOH, China refusing to negotiate with the United States BECAUSE of the lack of a Tea Party Embassy would give us a really clear picture of their intentions.

What does Hamas have to do with it? And your edit isn't valid--the page I linked is basically a terrorist PR organ. What I'm saying is that if they're defending not recognizing Israel it clearly means the government does not recognize Israel. They would have no reason to defend it otherwise.

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When does Israel recognize the right of Palestinians to have a state?

When does it stop torturing them and give them their rights?

When does it stop claiming resistance to oppression is terrorism?

Israel will recognize a Palestinian state when it agrees to be peaceful. This is the fundamental stumbling block for "peace" over there--the Palestinian government is unwilling to make a meaningful peace agreement because that would mean settling for less than conquering Israel.

And when you aim at civilians it's terrorism no matter how right or wrong your cause is.

 

[untermensche]

When does Israel recognize the right of Palestinians to have a state?

When does it stop torturing them and give them their rights?

When does it stop claiming resistance to oppression is terrorism?

Israel will recognize a Palestinian state when it agrees to be peaceful.

When will Israel agree to be peaceful?

You have absolutely NOTHING but double standards.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What does Hamas have to do with it?

Read the page and find out for yourself.

And your edit isn't valid--the page I linked is basically a terrorist Palestinian PR organ.

Fixed it again. You might need to adjust your spellchecker.

What I'm saying is that if they're defending not recognizing Israel it clearly means the government does not recognize Israel.

Electronic Intafada is not the government of Palestine. Neither, incidentally, is Hamas. Whether EITHER of them recognize Israel or not is immaterial since non-governments do not have the capacity to recognize or not-recognize governments.

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Israel will recognize a Palestinian state when it agrees to be peaceful.

They've already agreed to that.

And when you aim at civilians it's terrorism no matter how right or wrong your cause is.