Europe is racist

[DrZoidberg]

Unless you all missed this, we had EU elections this Sunday. Apparently I live on a racist continent. It certainly came as a surprise to me. It's not like Sweden is a shining example to the rest. Our nationalists did better than ever. Got 10% of the votes. Which is absurd considering that they have no coherent platform or opinions other than blaming everything on immigrants.

Feels weird that the continent that hosted the main events for both WWI and WW2, invented, Nazism, fascism, nationalism, patriotism hasn't learned anything from those wars. Or history in general. Nothing at all.

And it's not just a thing about calling these people fascists or nazis. Hungary's Fidesz (in power) are openly fascist. They've draughted special laws targetting Jews and Gypsies. Yes, really. Golden Dawn in Greece, got 9.4% of the vote in the European election are openly Neo-Nazi. Their leader read from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in parliament. The French Front National got a staggering 25% of the vote. They're also very fascist indeed, albeit not openly so.

It's clearly a strong European trend, and it's terrifying. I have no idea where it came from? Things seemed to go so well. But it doesn't seem like it's going any time soon.

The most baffling thing about these parties is that they're so incredibly stupid. They blame everything on immigrants. Only offer simplistic solutions (that won't work in a million years) to every problem. When interviewed on TV or radio they're literally speechless. It's obvious to anybody watching that they haven't thought through their position once, and are completely stumped on what to say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ross-europe-in-snub-to-austerity-9434069.html

Does anybody have any theories wtf happened here? I have some speculations, but I'm right now pretty baffled. So I'm open to any ideas you guys might have?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

IIRC, the turnout in the EU elections averaged around 40%. Given that extremist elements can turn out large percentages of their supporters, the fewer number of non-crazies who bother to show up to the polls, the greater the influence of the fringe candidates.

Also, when you get places like Greece and Spain where the economies are in the toilet and lots of people don't have any jobs or money, the voters can say "Well, the policies we've pursued over the past few decades were poorly thought out and now we're reaping the consequences of our bad decisions so we're going to go through some tough times because of what we did" or they can say "I don't have a job but that Muslim guy down the road owns a store. It's his and all the other immigrants' fault that I'm poor! Goddamned towel-heads!!!!". Many make a decision to go with the latter.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But even so, these numbers are pretty extreme. I mean... all nationalist parties are totally and absolutely insane. Completely bonkers. Not only do you have to be unemployed and poor, but an idiot.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But even so, these numbers are pretty extreme. I mean... all nationalist parties are totally and absolutely insane. Completely bonkers. Not only do you have to be unemployed and poor, but an idiot.

Well, the world's never had itself a shortage of idiots. When those idiots are motivated to vote and the non-idiots are too bourgeois to participate, the opinions of the idiots matter and the opinions of the non-idiots don't matter.

 

[funinspace]

But even so, these numbers are pretty extreme. I mean... all nationalist parties are totally and absolutely insane. Completely bonkers. Not only do you have to be unemployed and poor, but an idiot.

Well, the world's never had itself a shortage of idiots. When those idiots are motivated to vote and the non-idiots are too bourgeois to participate, the opinions of the idiots matter and the opinions of the non-idiots don't matter.

Yup. Additionally, when economies suck, some of the people will simply be voting for those against the whole system. French youth unemployment rate is still around 25%, even with France targeting subsidies for hiring people under 25.

The EU construct is part of what ails Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. And those anti-EU parties are feeding off of that resentment. Even if leaving the EU would be worse than the current situation, that sometimes doesn't hinder people from choosing the worse path. Immigrants are always an easy target to demonize. People generally seem to gravitate towards simplistic answers. Our Repugs do play that old tired song often and our tea partying Repug faction lap it up. Not that either US political party really offers more than simpleton fair as they do the same old song and dance...

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I thought Europe was this enlightened civilized Nirvana that the US should aspire to be more like.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All you need to be is a fan of football to know there are a minority of racists in Europe. Some West Ham United fans (or maybe better labeled as Hooligans) chanting Hitler is coming after you in a game against Tottenham (which is owned by a Jewish person), ironic seeing that West Ham United is in London which didn't fair well during WWII. Italians mocking Balotelli's color (he is black) in practices for the national team... he plays for Italy!!! Any number of issues in Eastern Europe where racism is more prevalent. Rubin Kazan in the past year just finally signed a black player, much to the distaste of one of their big fan clubs.

It is disturbing how Nazism torn Europe a new one, but some people didn't apparently get the memo.

I thought Europe was this enlightened civilized Nirvana that the US should aspire to be more like.

Meanwhile in Strawmantopia.

 

[dismal]

All you need to be is a fan of football to know there are a minority of racists in Europe. Some West Ham United fans (or maybe better labeled as Hooligans) chanting Hitler is coming after you in a game against Tottenham (which is owned by a Jewish person), ironic seeing that West Ham United is in London which didn't fair well during WWII. Italians mocking Balotelli's color (he is black) in practices for the national team... he plays for Italy!!! Any number of issues in Eastern Europe where racism is more prevalent. Rubin Kazan in the past year just finally signed a black player, much to the distaste of one of their big fan clubs.

There was also a recent banana throwing incident in Spain with Dani Alves. They seem to operate at a different level of social acceptability on these things than we do.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All you need to be is a fan of football to know there are a minority of racists in Europe. Some West Ham United fans (or maybe better labeled as Hooligans) chanting Hitler is coming after you in a game against Tottenham (which is owned by a Jewish person), ironic seeing that West Ham United is in London which didn't fair well during WWII. Italians mocking Balotelli's color (he is black) in practices for the national team... he plays for Italy!!! Any number of issues in Eastern Europe where racism is more prevalent. Rubin Kazan in the past year just finally signed a black player, much to the distaste of one of their big fan clubs.

There was also a recent banana throwing incident in Spain with Dani Alves. They seem to operate at a different level of social acceptability on these things than we do.

The US has race issues, but it is typically unheard of in the stadiums. In Europe, this sort of stuff isn't very uncommon, though I wouldn't say it was very common.

 

[Jokodo]

Unless you all missed this, we had EU elections this Sunday. Apparently I live on a racist continent. It certainly came as a surprise to me. It's not like Sweden is a shining example to the rest. Our nationalists did better than ever. Got 10% of the votes. Which is absurd considering that they have no coherent platform or opinions other than blaming everything on immigrants.

Feels weird that the continent that hosted the main events for both WWI and WW2, invented, Nazism, fascism, nationalism, patriotism hasn't learned anything from those wars. Or history in general. Nothing at all.

And it's not just a thing about calling these people fascists or nazis. Hungary's Fidesz (in power) are openly fascist. They've draughted special laws targetting Jews and Gypsies. Yes, really. Golden Dawn in Greece, got 9.4% of the vote in the European election are openly Neo-Nazi. Their leader read from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in parliament. <snip>

Golden Dawn is terrifying as such, but their result is actually fairly reassuring. They had been edging on 20% in the polls at some point, and got less than 10%. That's 10% too much for a party that doesn't even try to hide that it's Nazis, but they're not on the upsurge at the moment. As a whole, the country is moving left, not right.

I find the 20% and more for FPÖ, FN, or UKIP in some of the more prosperous countries more worrying.

 

[J842P]

Unless you all missed this, we had EU elections this Sunday. Apparently I live on a racist continent. It certainly came as a surprise to me. It's not like Sweden is a shining example to the rest. Our nationalists did better than ever. Got 10% of the votes. Which is absurd considering that they have no coherent platform or opinions other than blaming everything on immigrants.

Feels weird that the continent that hosted the main events for both WWI and WW2, invented, Nazism, fascism, nationalism, patriotism hasn't learned anything from those wars. Or history in general. Nothing at all.

And it's not just a thing about calling these people fascists or nazis. Hungary's Fidesz (in power) are openly fascist. They've draughted special laws targetting Jews and Gypsies. Yes, really. Golden Dawn in Greece, got 9.4% of the vote in the European election are openly Neo-Nazi. Their leader read from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in parliament. The French Front National got a staggering 25% of the vote. They're also very fascist indeed, albeit not openly so.

It's clearly a strong European trend, and it's terrifying. I have no idea where it came from? Things seemed to go so well. But it doesn't seem like it's going any time soon.

The most baffling thing about these parties is that they're so incredibly stupid. They blame everything on immigrants. Only offer simplistic solutions (that won't work in a million years) to every problem. When interviewed on TV or radio they're literally speechless. It's obvious to anybody watching that they haven't thought through their position once, and are completely stumped on what to say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ross-europe-in-snub-to-austerity-9434069.html

Does anybody have any theories wtf happened here? I have some speculations, but I'm right now pretty baffled. So I'm open to any ideas you guys might have?

I've said it before on these (well, on past) boards. I'm never more aware of being Latin American than when I go to Spain.

Honestly, you must be living in a bubble to think that Europe doesn't have racist tendencies. For god's sake, it seems like every other month some African footballer has to endure bananas being thrown at him.

 

[dystopian]

Unless you all missed this, we had EU elections this Sunday. Apparently I live on a racist continent. It certainly came as a surprise to me. It's not like Sweden is a shining example to the rest. Our nationalists did better than ever. Got 10% of the votes. Which is absurd considering that they have no coherent platform or opinions other than blaming everything on immigrants.

I don't see how you can conclude that "Europe" is racist based on the elections. 10% of Swedish people voting nationalist does not make Sweden racist; it doesn't even necessarily make 10% of Swedish people racists depending on why they voted nationalist.

Keep in mind that while yes, nationalist parties did, overall, quite well in the EU elections; they still make up a relatively small minority. One can therefore hardly say that "Europe" is racist. One can merely say that some of them are. Others have also pointed out the low voter turnout: extremists, such as the nationalists, will tend to vote because they feel strongly about it, while the people who don't give a shit stay home. So it isn't even that 10% of Swedish (or European, or whatever) people voted for racists, it's that 10% of 30-40% of Swedish people voted for racists.

Feels weird that the continent that hosted the main events for both WWI and WW2, invented, Nazism, fascism, nationalism, patriotism hasn't learned anything from those wars. Or history in general. Nothing at all.

And it's not just a thing about calling these people fascists or nazis. Hungary's Fidesz (in power) are openly fascist. They've draughted special laws targetting Jews and Gypsies. Yes, really. Golden Dawn in Greece, got 9.4% of the vote in the European election are openly Neo-Nazi. Their leader read from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in parliament. The French Front National got a staggering 25% of the vote. They're also very fascist indeed, albeit not openly so.

It's clearly a strong European trend, and it's terrifying. I have no idea where it came from? Things seemed to go so well. But it doesn't seem like it's going any time soon.

While I don't think the existence of these parties, or the relatively few votes they *actually* got in reality once you get past the deceptive numbers and negativity bias, means that "Europe" is racist; I do agree that their continued existence is troubling. However, I don't think it's particularly hard to explain why these parties can exist to begin with. The way most European democracies work means that small parties can exist and get a big enough percentage of the votes to get actual seats. The viability of fringe parties is a fundamental problem with the style of European democracy, but also at the same time evidence of its democratic strength. Only a democracy in which *every* group can come in and participate in the governmental process can be called a true democracy. If it were harder for new and small groups to get past the election threshold, we'd end up with a broken two or three party system without any hope of real change.

The most baffling thing about these parties is that they're so incredibly stupid. They blame everything on immigrants. Only offer simplistic solutions (that won't work in a million years) to every problem. When interviewed on TV or radio they're literally speechless. It's obvious to anybody watching that they haven't thought through their position once, and are completely stumped on what to say.

Unfortunately, there's no shortage of stupid people with the ability to vote.

The real problem the EU faces isn't racism... but *populism*. A lot of these parties aren't so much racist as they are adept at fanning the flames and appealing to people's "gut". When I look at Geert Wilders here; it's very obvious that that's what he's good at and what gives him the popularity he has: He knows just the way in which he has to yell and kick up dust in order to appeal to his base. When he says harsh things about muslims, europe, polish people, or whatever; his electorate's response is "Look, he's the only politician who just says what we're all thinking!" (it's not, of course, what we're all thinking). They see him as a politician who says what he thinks, and who isn't afraid of taking on the "elites" in the Hague. In reality, he rarely if ever enters actual debates with other politicians (no doubt because he knows he'd lose); he and his party never come up with actual solutions or viable proposals; everything they do in politics is done for publicity.

Take for instance the infamous "head rag tax" he suggested; this was a 'supposedly' serious proposal by the party a few years back to institute a law that said anyone wearing a muslim headscarf would have to pay an annual fee. Naturally this led to a lot of media attention. As a practiced politician though, Wilders knew perfectly well that for starters there was a zero chance of him getting the majority needed to push it through and that even if he did, the Dutch constitution would forbid it. So when it obviously got dismissed as racist nonsense, he could then throw his hands up and claim his opponents were demonizing him (another favorite tactic of his). He gets double the publicity, and his supporters eat it all up. The problem there isn't racism; though it's a contributing factor; the problem is populism. Without populist politicians who know how to whip them into a frenzy so they can get re-elected, racists/nationalists would never have a banner to unite behind.

 

[Turambar]

Let me give you my very anecdotal point of view regarding the EU, racism and the elections. I am a Latin American with an European passport, living and working in rural Germany for 2 and a half years now. I got the passport through my ancestry, my father being Austrian. I speak almost perfect German and know the local customs and culture quite well, but to Germans I do look foreign, or at least, “Southern European” as the Germans like to call us dark haired people. Add to that that my wife is Japanese and we have two kids: You can start to have an idea how out of place we are.

Nonetheless, I have to say that, on defense of my hosts, we have felt very little discrimination towards us. We live in a small rural town and at the beginning we did get some “intense stares”, but staring at strangers is Germany's national pastime, and while it tends to make newcomers uncomfortable, soon you realize that this is done more out of curiosity than hostility. (On the other hand, my sons have told me about some nasty comments made by other kids, but nothing too serious (yet).These isolated incidents get me thinking though, because kids usually learn racial slurs from adults. )

So how do I interpret the latest election results? Well, I think that people are getting fed up of traditional European politicians and I do not blame them. The guys from the main parties that I see on TV talk in a way that it seems they only want to appeal to other politicians . How on earth are they going to get voters like that? I work at a small company but I think it is a nice microcosm of German society. Out of approximately 100 employees we have about 10 managers, 20 technicians and chemists at the lab and the rest are manufacturing, warehouse and service workers. As you go down the organizational tree soon you realize that despite the fact that all of them received the same public education (Most are ethnic Germans that were born in the region) , some people simply are happy with a day job, a nice little house and the Bundesliga football matches on the weekend. They do not care about what happens in the Ukraine, Egypt or Sierra Leone nor do they follow the markets, the economy, science news or the arts. I'm OK with it, everyone is different and I respect that. But it gets me thinking: Despite all the talk we hear about Western Europe being the utopia of what a human society can achieve in terms of social equality, evolution has made us in such away that there will always be large numbers of persons in any group that do not want to save the world, invent mew things or become leaders. And they have the right to do so!

But when I see the traditional politicians.... Oh boy, they talk nonsense, use terms 50% of the population never uses and worst of all, they are dishonest in their speeches. Nobody says: “Look here is the deal, you guys are having way too few kids and we need to keep this steam engine rolling so all of us (but mostly me of course) can keep on living a good life, specially when we get old. So, we have decided to take advantage of some poor, uneducated people willing to work for little money under the pretext of “humanitarian help” . Yes they come from a society totally different from ours and they will have trouble adapting but fuck it, we will put them in your neighborhood (not ours) and when something bad happens (like your teenager son getting his ass kicked because he stared at pretty Jasmin in front of Ahmed) we will blame you for being so dumb and ignorant, unlike us the elite who (thanks to your taxes) travel around the world and become cosmopolitan enough to learn how to navigate inter-culturally”

And they wonder why the average Joe (or average “Hans”) is starting to listen to racist nut-jobs.... At least THEY ARE HONEST, that is why.

So IMHO, the fault is not of the local people nor the immigrants, the fault is of the arrogant traditional politicians who under the disguise of “progressive thinking” invite trouble and sell their ideas through a dishonest discourse. Immigration has been badly mismanaged. My wife and I are college educated and well traveled so we are adapting, but how can we demand that some poor peasant from Anatolia gets transplanted to Frankfurt and functions in German (or any other Western European) society? So what do these immigrants do? They gather of course. They live close to each other, protect each other and console each other. Soon you have “ghettos”. For most urban Americans this is no big deal. American urban society is used to this. Their world is an ever changing world: The average American moves many times from one neighborhood to another (or another city or state) in his life. The average German usually only moves once or twice (When he leaves the parents' house and when she/he marries). The traditional European politicians want to make Europe more like the USA (which is totally cool), but they are not honest about their intentions and invent all kinds of bullshit which eventually hit the fan because even Bundesliga fans are not that stupid.

 

[dx713]

No they aren't honest.
At least not here with Front National. They single out journalists who manage to own a flat in Paris as "sold out" while Marine Le Pen has been living in wealth since birth. They intimidate them openly.
They expand their base by saying they are pushing away racists and neo-nazies while in practice, it just mean not letting journalists hear or publish the racist talk and having neo-nazies officially resign from their former movement when they rise in the FN ranks.
They appeal to the working poor by appearing less corrupt than the mainstream parties while they are the first to creatively interpret the laws.

But you're right in that they appear honest and down to earth. When the mainstream politicians talk about abstract theories and vague principles, the FN name and describe the everyday problems that people live through. Their solutions might be simplistic solutions that will never work, but for the average extreme-right voter, at least, they are tackling the problem, while it seems the mainstream politicians don't even see the problem.

Also, your analysis on the kind who vote for them is on the point here too. It's striking to see that on the polls after the EU elections, 70% of voters said they voted on European issues (30% on national issues), while the proportion is reversed for FN voters (and their main domestic issue being immigration reeks nicely of racism).