Exposure to socialism increases the proclivity to cheat?

[Trausti]

A study:

From 1961 to 1989, the Berlin Wall divided one nation into two distinct political regimes. We exploited this natural experiment to investigate whether the socio-political context impacts individual honesty. Using an abstract die-rolling task, we found evidence that East Germans who were exposed to socialism cheat more than West Germans who were exposed to capitalism.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2457000

Seems plausible. Other variables may be at play.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Or it means that capitalists are better at cheating and don't get caught as often.

 

[Petrel]

Or it means that what the East Germans were exposed to wasn't socialism, but a foreign occupation following a lost war, which left behind immense damage and loss of productivity, and the rulers imposed on - not elected by - them was discriminative, incompetent, brutal and dishonest, so that the only way anyone could get anything done was by deception.

 

[Derec]

Or it means that what the East Germans were exposed to wasn't socialism, but a foreign occupation following a lost war, which left behind immense damage and loss of productivity, and the rulers imposed on - not elected by - them was discriminative, incompetent, brutal and dishonest, so that the only way anyone could get anything done was by deception.

Funny how the country that won the selfsame war and was occupying (until 1949) and dominating DDR had the same problems with lack of productivity and most Soviet citizens also could only get stuff done by deception (or paying of bribes).
On the other hand, West Germany experienced the Wirtschaftswunder (lit. economic miracle) and generally enjoyed high levels of economic growth and prosperity. Yet they had lost the same war (obviously since Germany wasn't divided until they lost it) and were occupied until 1949 as well.
so yeah, I'll go with the socialism hypothesis rather than the lost war hypothesis.

 

[barbos]

I thought socialism is what they have is Sweden. DDR and Soviet Union was totalitarianism.

 

[Petrel]

Funny how the country that won the selfsame war and was occupying (until 1949) and dominating DDR had the same problems with lack of productivity and most Soviet citizens also could only get stuff done by deception (or paying of bribes).

There was nothing funny about either dictatorship. A lot of people died so that a few could have power and money and revenge and secret plots and ... whatever they desired. Sociopathy, not socialism. Socialism grows out of co-operation; dictatorship results from violence.

so yeah, I'll go with the socialism hypothesis rather than the lost war hypothesis.

Easier than learning the concepts, I suppose.

 

[barbos]

By the way, Merkel is from east Germany

 

[dystopian]

Or it means that what the East Germans were exposed to wasn't socialism, but a foreign occupation following a lost war, which left behind immense damage and loss of productivity, and the rulers imposed on - not elected by - them was discriminative, incompetent, brutal and dishonest, so that the only way anyone could get anything done was by deception.

This. If you ask me, this thread should be moved to pseudoscience as I really don´t see how they could possible conclude that people with an east-german family background cheating more at abstract tasks has fuck-all to do with socialism versus capitalism. Me thinks the researcer´s bias is showing (which should be obvious by the language they use in the abstract). The only thing they´ve supposedly demonstrated is that east germans cheat more.

 

[Togo]

And the explicitly state that they're not testing 'socialism' but rather 'actual socialism' (i.e. totalitarian communism), on page 2.

The differences are small but measureable, and there is no real attempt to link the results to socialism/market economy, as opposed to democracy/dictatorship. Add to that the point that the entire experiment was conducted in the context of an interaction with the federal government for identity papers, and the totalitarian nature of the former regime seems by far the more powerful factor.

 

[Derec]

I thought socialism is what they have is Sweden. DDR and Soviet Union was totalitarianism.

Wrong. Socialism is an economic system where the state controls (almost) all means of production. In communist ideology, socialism is seen as the intermediary step toward a full communist society (which is to be stateless).
Sweden has "capitalism lite", i.e. a capitalists system with high levels of regulation, taxation and government spending. It is different from US system only in degree, not kind, unlike actual socialist systems.

 

[Derec]

There was nothing funny about either dictatorship.

The socialist dictatorships weren't funny but your misconceptions about them kind of are.

A lot of people died so that a few could have power and money and revenge and secret plots and ... whatever they desired. Sociopathy, not socialism. Socialism grows out of co-operation; dictatorship results from violence.

And Christianity is not a religion but a relationship.

Easier than learning the concepts, I suppose.

I am very familiar with the concepts comrade. I think it is you who is lacking.
By the way, you have not responded to my point about comparison of DDR and USSR on one hand and West and East Germany on the other, and how that is disastrous to your hypothesis.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I thought socialism is what they have is Sweden. DDR and Soviet Union was totalitarianism.

Wrong. Socialism is an economic system where the state controls (almost) all means of production.

Man, someone needs to get into a time machine and let Eugene Debs know that! That way he can change his party's platform to include that.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I thought socialism is what they have is Sweden. DDR and Soviet Union was totalitarianism.

This is a big misconception that has been growing. Sweden does have a great safety net. However, there are many many for profit companies in Sweden. One of my best friends works for one. The people there are very industrial and entrepreneurial. Sorry for the aside, but wanted to correct the misunderstanding.

 

[Togo]

I thought socialism is what they have is Sweden. DDR and Soviet Union was totalitarianism.

Wrong. Socialism is an economic system where the state controls (almost) all means of production.

Derec is wrong. What he describes is indeed totalitarianism. It is not socialism as it is understood by modern socialists, which in Europe are commonplace, mainstream, and at odds with your claim.

 

[dismal]

So, if we changed the title of the thread to "exposure to leftist themed big government causes people to cheat" I assume everyone would be agreed.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Wrong. Socialism is an economic system where the state controls (almost) all means of production.

Derec is wrong. What he describes is indeed totalitarianism. It is not socialism as it is understood by modern socialists, which in Europe are commonplace, mainstream, and at odds with your claim.

False. You are using Bill O'Reilly's definition of socialism. Socialism is where the means of production are owned by the workers (or the state during transition). Europe is better described as "social democrats". They have a system that attempts to capture the good parts of capitalism but mitigates the bad parts higher safety nets, programs for the poor, taxes on the rich, and etc.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Derec is wrong. What he describes is indeed totalitarianism. It is not socialism as it is understood by modern socialists, which in Europe are commonplace, mainstream, and at odds with your claim.

False. You are using Bill O'Reilly's definition of socialism. Socialism is where the means of production are owned by the workers (or the state during transition). Europe is better described as "social democrats". They have a system that attempts to capture the good parts of capitalism but mitigates the bad parts higher safety nets, programs for the poor, taxes on the rich, and etc.

I believe socialism is about the workers having a larger piece of the production. It wasn't about removing management entirely. Needed both cogs for a company to work, but only one of the cogs didn't have to worry about dying during production. Hence the desire to change the system, make it safer and offer the workers a larger share of the production.

So, if we changed the title of the thread to "exposure to leftist themed big government causes people to cheat" I assume everyone would be agreed.

East Germany wasn't under a leftist ideology, so no.

 

[dismal]

So, if we changed the title of the thread to "exposure to leftist themed big government causes people to cheat" I assume everyone would be agreed.

East Germany wasn't under a leftist ideology, so no.

The things people say.

I googled up "east german propaganda" and on a single wikipedia page found this:

The purpose of propaganda in the German Democratic Republic was to maintain the Soviet ideology of socialism.

The information on the posters was used to convince the German people that the institutions of the Soviet Union would perpetuate a peaceful socialist society.

The German Democratic Republic created pamphlets to promote a socialist and peaceful way of life to those living in Western Germany.

Speeches were made in order to persuade the people to fall in line with the socialist movement and the leaders of the Soviet Union.

These speeches, along with the propaganda aforementioned helped to convince the German people that socialism and the German Democratic Republic would remain intact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_German_Cold_War_Propaganda

 

[Derec]

I believe socialism is about the workers having a larger piece of the production.

And you would be wrong.

East Germany wasn't under a leftist ideology, so no.

Of course they were. East Germany was ruled by SED or Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands or Socialist Unity Party of Germany which was formed by merging of SPD (social democrats) and KPD (communists). It's motto was Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt Euch! (Proletarians of all countries, unite). If all that isn't a "leftist ideology" I wonder what you would consider as such.

 

[ksen]

Socialism is an economic system where the state controls (almost) all means of production.

No.