Extensive Review of Book on UCLA, Discrimination, Bias

[maxparrish]

Tim Groseclose has confirmed that he is one of America’s leading conservative commentators with the publication of Cheating: An Insider’s Report on the Use of Race in Admissions at UCLA. It may seem an odd role for Groseclose, for six years the Marvin Hoffenberg Chair of American Politics at UCLA and a quantitative social scientist whose innovations are widely recognized (see the list of publications on his website). He has achieved academic plaudits while openly declaring his Rush Limbaugh-listening and other rightwing proclivities.

To fully appreciate Cheating, we should start by discussing Left Turn, Groseclose’s earlier popular work about liberal media bias. Such critiques (as well as exposées of race preference in academia) are legion, but he devises formal models to measure the extent of bias or discrimination that enables all sorts of instructive comparisons. He establishes PQ measurements (political bias) of counties, cities, politicians, and media outlets. His website even contains instructions on how to calculate your own PQ.

Among his provocative comparisons, Groseclose argues that one of the most conservative areas in America, a gun-toting Mormon locale (which, coincidentally, Edward Banfield studied in his now 60-year-old classic, The Moral Basis of a Backward Society), is by his analysis less conservative than the Beltway is liberal. Using Groseclose’s framework, we can see that a leftist politician could perceive herself as less leftist than she actually is, especially after we have compared her with a Tea Party Republican who is less conservative than she thinks. Given their environments, the media, and colleagues, extreme liberals can come to regard themselves as centrists.

Besides PQ, Groseclose had developed (in a coauthored article) SQ, a slant quotient, which measures media bias by its selection and use of think-tank research. In Left Turn Groseclose approximates the actual effect of the SQ of media on attitudes and ultimately voting patterns. (For a readable assessment of his methodology see the review by Joshua Lerner in Commentary, November 2011.) Again, the conclusions are not surprising, but the ability to make comparisons is fascinating, as are his careful considerations of the effects of the media on voting.

http://www.libertylawsite.org/2014/08/13/injustice-by-the-numbers/

Apparently, in the article, one of his many findings of his work, is that the victims of Discrimination at UCLA are actually Asians. With identical scores and grades, blacks are twice as likely to be accepted as an Asian.

 

[untermensche]

It is bad that some poor Asians may suffer.

But we cannot throw away the black communities as if they are so much trash.

What is your solution to help black communities caught in cycles of poverty?

Ending the drug war would be a good start.

 

[maxparrish]

I don't believe there is a solution, other than maybe providing a negative income tax that raises 100 percent of all persons above a defined poverty level, regardless if they work or want to work. But I fear that is not a real solution as such folk often make poor choices (e.g. gambling, drugs, addictions ) that impoverishes them anyway.

The reality is that there will always be an underclass of untrainables (e.g. 20 percent of those who apply for military service and are rejected as untrainable). In a modern economy that "20" percent are, at best, suitable as Gamma's. But as unskilled physical labor is mainly not needed in a modern economy (or if needed done by illegals or recent immigrants) then millions of many blacks and Latinos, as well as poor whites, must be housed, fed, medically treated. So how do we do it?

I think something like an adult home, an orphanage for gammas, might be useful. We could build rural group barracks for millions, construct mess halls, provide durable clothing, some recreation opportunity, and a cash allowance. They could come and go as they please, but report back to the home every night so they don't get into trouble. By my estimate, 60 million persons of all ages could live in these indigent homes...letting the remainder of productive society and communities alone, unaffected by their often anti-social and self-destructive behavior.

Take California. 8 million folk could be transported to Southern California arid rural regions, Nevada, Western Utah, Arizona, Alaska etc. One of the advantages of rural relocation is it increases the difficulty to exit into the stable and productive communities; but they could have day passes and take buses to surrounding areas.

One aspect of my idea might be controversial - it would be of benefit to mandate birth control and, for the pregnant, abortions. Doing so would slowly reduce the number of unattrainables in future generations, producing a more intelligent and talented population. Welfare costs would shrink and people would have the self-esteem from doing truly productive work and independence.

 

[untermensche]

You wouldn't go into the black neighborhoods and find the best minds available and make all efforts to make higher education available to them?

 

[ZiprHead]

"Class-based preferences as a colorblind form of raising Black admissions is yet another smokescreen: While wealthy African Americans gained admissions at a 38 percent rate, poor North Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) gained admissions at a 23 percent rate."

Is it class-based or is it just a matter of giving US citizens priority over foreigners?

 

[maxparrish]

No. I would more likely find the best minds regardless of color, and make every effort to make a higher education available.

 

[untermensche]

No. I would more likely find the best minds regardless of color, and make every effort to make a higher education available.

How does that help with the cycle of poverty in black neighborhoods?

 

[ZiprHead]

No. I would more likely find the best minds regardless of color, and make every effort to make a higher education available.

That's your opinion based upon your point of view, not really an answer to the question.

Colleges and universities traditionally give advantage to in-state students as opposed to out of state. Could this be another example of this?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is bad that some poor Asians may suffer.

But we cannot throw away the black communities as if they are so much trash.

What is your solution to help black communities caught in cycles of poverty?

Ending the drug war would be a good start.

Yes, ending the drug war would be a good start.

The second thing I would do is end affirmative action. So long as we pretend discrimination is the cause of the problem the real issues will not be addressed.

The third thing I would do is a vast improvement to sex education. Not only about contraception but the effects of early childbearing, not only on the parent but on the child. Included in this would be parenting classes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You wouldn't go into the black neighborhoods and find the best minds available and make all efforts to make higher education available to them?

Affirmative action has no effect on the number of blacks that go to college--those that will go to college will go anyway, just to different schools.

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

 

[untermensche]

You wouldn't go into the black neighborhoods and find the best minds available and make all efforts to make higher education available to them?

Affirmative action has no effect on the number of blacks that go to college--those that will go to college will go anyway, just to different schools.

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

All you're saying is that the effort is not big enough.

We need to do more.

 

[dismal]

It is bad that some poor Asians may suffer.

I believe I have the answer.

We start thinking of "Asians" as "White". (Like the media does when they say Apple or Google does not hire enough minorities.)

White people are not hurt by being disadvantaged in admissions so the problem goes away.

To keep things fair we (I speak for all white people here) will trade the MENA people for the Asians, since they are already lobbying not to be called "White".

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...icans-of-middle-eastern-north-african-descent

 

[laughing dog]

You wouldn't go into the black neighborhoods and find the best minds available and make all efforts to make higher education available to them?

Affirmative action has no effect on the number of blacks that go to college--those that will go to college will go anyway, just to different schools.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

A conclusion based on unsubstantiated premises.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Affirmative action has no effect on the number of blacks that go to college--those that will go to college will go anyway, just to different schools.

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

All you're saying is that the effort is not big enough.

We need to do more.

So you're saying the solution to finding yourself in a hole is to dig even more?

AA harms blacks in college, yet you want more of it. The problem is that admission to an elite school doesn't give you what it takes to actually succeed in that school.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Affirmative action has no effect on the number of blacks that go to college--those that will go to college will go anyway, just to different schools.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

A conclusion based on unsubstantiated premises.

We've seen what happens in California when the voters put a stop to the discrimination.

The number of blacks in school remained about the same but they were going to lower tier schools--and graduating rather than dropping out.

 

[untermensche]

All you're saying is that the effort is not big enough.

We need to do more.

So you're saying the solution to finding yourself in a hole is to dig even more?

AA harms blacks in college, yet you want more of it. The problem is that admission to an elite school doesn't give you what it takes to actually succeed in that school.

The current policy, according to you, harms blacks.

So we need to make a better effort. We need to do MORE.

We are not going to just give up.

 

[laughing dog]

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

A conclusion based on unsubstantiated premises.

We've seen what happens in California when the voters put a stop to the discrimination.

The number of blacks in school remained about the same but they were going to lower tier schools--and graduating rather than dropping out.

If "we" saw this, then you ought to be able to produce the evidence. Still waiting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you're saying the solution to finding yourself in a hole is to dig even more?

AA harms blacks in college, yet you want more of it. The problem is that admission to an elite school doesn't give you what it takes to actually succeed in that school.

The current policy, according to you, harms blacks.

So we need to make a better effort. We need to do MORE.

We are not going to just give up.

Doing more means more harm.

You could make an argument that we should do something different, doing more of a bad thing certainly isn't the answer.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

What it does effect is the number that actually graduate--it lowers that number.

Do you have any disinterested evidence to support this claim?

Thus by abolishing it you will see *MORE* degreed blacks.

A conclusion based on unsubstantiated premises.

We've seen what happens in California when the voters put a stop to the discrimination.

The number of blacks in school remained about the same but they were going to lower tier schools--and graduating rather than dropping out.

If "we" saw this, then you ought to be able to produce the evidence. Still waiting.

It's come up on here before, you're just trying to distract from the truth.

 

[fromderinside]

The number of blacks in school remained about the same but they were going to lower tier schools--and graduating rather than dropping out.

Talk about a hurricane fart. This thread qualifies. 3.8% of student population are blacks attending UCLA (one of the elite schools) whilst they are about 8% of California population. 40% of student population are Asians attending whilst Asians makeup less than 4% of California population. The problem is at the both elite schools and at the lower tier (state universities and state colleges) schools.

The fact that black students are graduating at state colleges implies to me that blacks can do the job. Its probably not a valid conclusion to draw that blacks are less capable than Asians. Culture and bias can be illuminated as they have been for centuries. We've just not found a way to be fair nor just. We punish cultures that don't emphasize education and we reward too much cultures that do. We punish cultures we feel are inferior and we reward too much cultures we admire.

Since education is the roadway to success we need to be fair about providing access. We demonstrably aren't. SAT, etc, reflect success in the marketplace (professional and business positions). Since blacks are poorly represented such scores don't reflect black success. Look at the skewed black and Hispanic success stories we are looking at the direction standards should be moved.

 

[laughing dog]

It's come up on here before, you're just trying to distract from the truth.

Still waiting for the evidence for your claim after two of your replies. If anyone is distracting from the truth, the evidence points to you.