• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

Indeed lol, however these things can be tested (to both posts above) e.g. Dan's theory of the Annunaki based on Dr. Sitichins translation, who happened to be the "one and only" to read the related Sumerian texts, has been found at fault by Dr. Michael Heiser.


(Just eaten and all of a sudden Im very sleepy)
 
Indeed lol, however these things can be tested (to both posts above) e.g. Dan's theory of the Annunaki based on Dr. Sitichins translation, who happened to be the "one and only" to read the related Sumerian texts, has been found at fault by Dr. Michael Heiser.


(Just eaten and all of a sudden Im very sleepy)
If we can test them, that requires non-hearsay resources to test them against.

How would you 'test' the stories of Jesus' healing miracles, say? Against what?
 
Indeed lol, however these things can be tested (to both posts above) e.g. Dan's theory of the Annunaki based on Dr. Sitichins translation, who happened to be the "one and only" to read the related Sumerian texts, has been found at fault by Dr. Michael Heiser.


(Just eaten and all of a sudden Im very sleepy)
If we can test them, that requires non-hearsay resources to test them against.

How would you 'test' the stories of Jesus' healing miracles, say? Against what?

It is actually quite easy. Persuade Biblegod to show up and demonstrate that he can perform supernatural acts under controlled circumstances. It would be incredibly easy for the god of the Bible to do.
 
But in genrral, the reason we disallow 'the hearsay thing' in courts of law is hecause aftrr years upon years of trying various ways to test truth claims, everyone pretty much agrees that 'the hearsay thing' does not work often enough to be trustworthy. Everyone agrees to this, right up until they realize that the best evidence they have for a cherished belief is hearsay...at best.

Well yes, more so when the witness just brings it up out-of-the-blue about what he or she heard someone say ... without any previous investigation (or some record to present), prior to that day in court.


I mean, you would not pay a $45000 tax bill you only have rumors that you owe...
Or buy a bridge on friend of a friend of a friend's tale it's for sale.
But when the hearsay is your superstition...

Sure. So, what evidence have you encountered by following up the hearsay in the biblical acvounts? Stuff that will stand up to scrutiny?

And if you have that, why defend the hearsay?

In the viewpoint I mean: Someone takes note of the "rumours" as you put it, that says so-and-so lived in the old house on a particular street for example, and with a little investigation finds out that there is indications that the rumours are true by visiting the place.
 
... snip ...

In the viewpoint I mean: Someone takes note of the "rumours" as you put it, that says so-and-so lived in the old house on a particular street for example, and with a little investigation finds out that there is indications that the rumours are true by visiting the place.
But it is the evidence that is turned up by the investigation that is convincing that they lived in the old house, not the 'rumour".

The gospels give us four 'rumours' (that often contradict each other) of miracles. And then there is nothing else available that we can investigate to determine if any of them are factual... at least, all other sources we can check to determine if there is any truth to the 'rumours' have turned up nothing that can support them and, in a few cases, would contradict some of the claims.

ETA:
At least with Von Daniken, there is the monoliths around the world, Nazca lines, and amazing ancient stone work we can look at. :)
 
Last edited:
But it is the evidence that is turned up by the investigation that is convincing that they lived in the old house, not the 'rumour".

The scenario previously was: that it was a rumour ... before someone decided to act on it and investigate.

The gospels give us four 'rumours' (that often contradict each other) of miracles. And then there is nothing else available that we can investigate to determine if any of them are factual.

The Gospels don't contradict each other, they are different from each other but all say the same Messianic message, which is the importance imo. If they were actually four identical gospels then that would be more questionable obviously. (Besides , Its not like the analogy of a courtroom, where a case gets closed but this would need further delving into.)
 
But in genrral, the reason we disallow 'the hearsay thing' in courts of law is hecause aftrr years upon years of trying various ways to test truth claims, everyone pretty much agrees that 'the hearsay thing' does not work often enough to be trustworthy. Everyone agrees to this, right up until they realize that the best evidence they have for a cherished belief is hearsay...at best.

Well yes, more so when the witness just brings it up out-of-the-blue about what he or she heard someone say ... without any previous investigation (or some record to present), prior to that day in court.
so, if i understand you... i still have to say that unattributed anecdotes are hearsay eitherduring the investigation or the trial. Which leaves us with...what evidence have you found based on your investigation of the gospels?
I mean, you would not pay a $45000 tax bill you only have rumors that you owe...
Or buy a bridge on friend of a friend of a friend's tale it's for sale.
But when the hearsay is your superstition...

Sure. So, what evidence have you encountered by following up the hearsay in the biblical acvounts? Stuff that will stand up to scrutiny?

And if you have that, why defend the hearsay?

In the viewpoint I mean: Someone takes note of the "rumours" as you put it, that says so-and-so lived in the old house on a particular street for example, and with a little investigation finds out that there is indications that the rumours are true by visiting the place.
.

No.
The 'rumor' is that when Dad was a kid, back in Hometown, Old Man McMurdy used to live at 1313 Mockingbird Lane, and had traveled the orient, and while there he befriended an al-Tor'In. The torin came back to live with him and every Halloween it breathed fire at the trick-or-treaters.

That's the rumor. And my investigation shows that there is a Mockingbird lane, and an abandoned house at 1313. Records show that it was owned by a Mister Alvin MacMurdeen.

So, is that evidence of the al-Tor'In?
Halloween fire breathing?
Orient travel?
 
There is no hope that you are going to get through to a cockatoo

Yes, I'm well aware. Again, that was the point of using the type. To bludgeon, not merely "get through." What's needed is a cudgel.

For the sake of convivial discussion and polite society, it is worth noting that one does not need to "get through" to the cockatoo in order to have an interesting conversation. One can use the cockatoo as a foil - a prompt - for a discussion that has actual substance and informs the scores of other people listening to the conversation who are not cockatoos, but who have perhaps only heard cockatoos up until now.


I think it's okay, and indeed easier to be civil, when one thinks of the cockatoo as a plot-device rather than an adversary.
 
But it is the evidence that is turned up by the investigation that is convincing that they lived in the old house, not the 'rumour".
Yes and it is the hearsay tale in the gospels that spurred investigation. Romans were damned anal about keeping records and there was no confirmation of the hearsay tales found. For example there is no record (other than in the gospels) of the sun going out, the earth splitting open, and corpses rising from the graves and wandering the streets. Surely such extarodinary events would have merited some mention in Roman records and even in the records of the Jewish civil leadership in Jerusalem. This indicates that the hearsay tales have no merit.
 
There is no hope that you are going to get through to a cockatoo

Yes, I'm well aware. Again, that was the point of using the type. To bludgeon, not merely "get through." What's needed is a cudgel.

For the sake of convivial discussion and polite society, it is worth noting that one does not need to "get through" to the cockatoo in order to have an interesting conversation. One can use the cockatoo as a foil - a prompt - for a discussion that has actual substance and informs the scores of other people listening to the conversation who are not cockatoos, but who have perhaps only heard cockatoos up until now.


I think it's okay, and indeed easier to be civil, when one thinks of the cockatoo as a plot-device rather than an adversary.

Thank you for pointing that out. When I talk about cockatoos, I do not mean to imply that any of the posters in this thread have the cognitive abilities of a bird. Rather, I am comparing their posting style with the way cockatoos often act and communicate, as I find remarkable similarities between the two.
 
There is no hope that you are going to get through to a cockatoo

Yes, I'm well aware. Again, that was the point of using the type. To bludgeon, not merely "get through." What's needed is a cudgel.

For the sake of convivial discussion and polite society, it is worth noting that one does not need to "get through" to the cockatoo in order to have an interesting conversation. One can use the cockatoo as a foil - a prompt - for a discussion that has actual substance and informs the scores of other people listening to the conversation who are not cockatoos, but who have perhaps only heard cockatoos up until now.


I think it's okay, and indeed easier to be civil, when one thinks of the cockatoo as a plot-device rather than an adversary.

Uh huh. And when the Cockatoo just keeps regurgitating already disproved sophistry over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, perhaps it's time for a figurative smack to the head. Your mileage may vary.
 
Also according to Lumpy:
1. If I write a story and someone makes 10 copies of it, the story now has 11 credible sources.
2. Hearsay from anonymous strangers on the street constitute better evidence than the sworn testimony of known individuals.
and so on.
That is what you are up against.

I don't agree with this. Lumpenproletariat's assessment of credible evidence begins with not knowing who wrote the original story. If we know you wrote it, it's not anonymous.

Lumpenproletariat's formula:
1. If someone claims he's in contact with a disembodied individual who was once a human being but gives no time frame or details about where or when that person lived we have (1) credible source.
2. If someone else (or some group of people, but we have no idea who) writes a story placing this figure into a historical setting (like Margaret Mitchell did with Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler) and 3 other people (or groups, none of whom we know) plagiarize and slightly alter the story while adding a B29 bomber and a nuclear weapon to the American Civil War), we have 4(5) credible sources.
 
so, if i understand you... i still have to say that unattributed anecdotes are hearsay eitherduring the investigation or the trial. Which leaves us with...what evidence have you found based on your investigation of the gospels?

Well, I don't really call them "hearsay",.. as if it were something that's said, suddenly comes up in court ... as it does give a misleading or unfair impression, since "hearsay" is to be ignored as the court analogy goes. Theists argue that these Gospels are reports, documented texts that has more substance than mere "hearsay" where scholars, theologians and anyone else study and still investigate (outside court, in the court analogy).

In the viewpoint I mean: Someone takes note of the "rumours" as you put it, that says so-and-so lived in the old house on a particular street for example, and with a little investigation finds out that there is indications that the rumours are true by visiting the place.
.
No.
The 'rumor' is that when Dad was a kid, back in Hometown, Old Man McMurdy used to live at 1313 Mockingbird Lane, and had traveled the orient, and while there he befriended an al-Tor'In. The torin came back to live with him and every Halloween it breathed fire at the trick-or-treaters.

That's the rumor. And my investigation shows that there is a Mockingbird lane, and an abandoned house at 1313. Records show that it was owned by a Mister Alvin MacMurdeen.

So, is that evidence of the al-Tor'In?
Halloween fire breathing?
Orient travel?

There are all kinds of rumours that get said - as with my example and yours above. Some turn out to be true and some don't obviously.
 
But it is the evidence that is turned up by the investigation that is convincing that they lived in the old house, not the 'rumour".
Yes and it is the hearsay tale in the gospels that spurred investigation. Romans were damned anal about keeping records and there was no confirmation of the hearsay tales found. For example there is no record (other than in the gospels) of the sun going out, the earth splitting open, and corpses rising from the graves and wandering the streets. Surely such extarodinary events would have merited some mention in Roman records and even in the records of the Jewish civil leadership in Jerusalem. This indicates that the hearsay tales have no merit.

I suppose I would wonder; if the the below would also be considered as rumours, if these reports were from 2 thousand years ago ? Worth the investigation I suspect for those interested:

Multiple police units raced to an address in Restalrig following reports a man who was “possibly” in possession of a firearm.

Police were called out to the scene in Restalrig Road at around 4.55 on Monday where an extensive search was carried out.

At least three police cars (I mean chariots) attended the incident, with eyewitness reports of armed officers present.

A social housing provider has received reports of a man on a motorbike exposing himself to children around the Rivers Estate in Redhill.


Perhaps with a little imagination for the effect ... replace police with roman soldiers :D.
 
Last edited:
But it is the evidence that is turned up by the investigation that is convincing that they lived in the old house, not the 'rumour".
Yes and it is the hearsay tale in the gospels that spurred investigation. Romans were damned anal about keeping records and there was no confirmation of the hearsay tales found. For example there is no record (other than in the gospels) of the sun going out, the earth splitting open, and corpses rising from the graves and wandering the streets. Surely such extarodinary events would have merited some mention in Roman records and even in the records of the Jewish civil leadership in Jerusalem. This indicates that the hearsay tales have no merit.

I suppose I would wonder; if the the below would also be considered as rumours, if these reports were from 2 thousand years ago ? Worth the investigation I suspect for those interested:

Multiple police units raced to an address in Restalrig following reports a man who was “possibly” in possession of a firearm.

Police were called out to the scene in Restalrig Road at around 4.55 on Monday where an extensive search was carried out.

At least three police cars (I mean chariots) attended the incident, with eyewitness reports of armed officers present.

A social housing provider has received reports of a man on a motorbike exposing himself to children around the Rivers Estate in Redhill.


Perhaps with a little imagination for the effect ... replace police with roman soldiers :D.

You really see an equivalence in being noteworthy of "... the sun going out, the earth splitting open, and corpses rising from the graves and wandering the streets..." and a routine police response? Personally, I believe that if the sun went dark, Washington D.C. experienced a catastrophic earthquake, and the buried in Arlington cemetery rose and walked through the streets then today's cronoclers would certainly take note and that people in another two thousand years would be quite aware of the event... sorta like real events like Rome burning during Nero's reign was noted by cronoclers so that we know about it today.
 
You would still call those reports of witnesses in the quote as "hearsay" regardless. Besides I'm sure you know but not agree with the biblical theme .. after Jesus its now all in the waiting no direct interaction as it was then in the OT, e.g. its Satan's world now, as the biblical saying goes.
 
Well, I don't really call them "hearsay",..
Are you pretending that they are eyewitness accounts?
as if it were something that's said, suddenly comes up in court ... as it does give a misleading or unfair impression, since "hearsay" is to be ignored as the court analogy goes.
It's 'hearsay' if it's not from a participant or observer, but a 'report' that someone gives about what they heard happened, but did not see.

Paul identifies himself and writes in first person. And some of his books are 'pseudographical' which is a fancy way of saying 'fraud.'
The other gospels are not written as eyewitness accounts, and names are not given. At BEST they are hearsay accounts of something that happened to someone else. OR, they're made-up shit that never happened.
Theists argue that these Gospels are reports, documented texts that has more substance than mere "hearsay"
You just don't like the term 'hearsay.'
I was in a car accident three years ago. I can tell you all about my experiences as the Honda was rear-ended and glass rained down upon me like jagged glitter. Not hearsay. Not because the event has substance, but because I was there.
I saw a car accident two years ago. I can tell you about the truck hitting the Volkswagon like a redneck stomping a beer can. Amazing that the driver survived. Not hearsay. Not because the event has substance, but because I was there.
My son was in an accident 1 year ago. There is substance to the story but anything _I_ told you would be hearsay, a report of what he told me of his experiences. Doesn't make it any less of a fact, but it is not eyewitness testimony.

There are all kinds of rumours that get said - as with my example and yours above. Some turn out to be true and some don't obviously.
But the question is not 'turns out to be true,' the question was about the weight of hearsay as evidence.

You would not accept really poorly supported claims and wild tales if you were not predisposed to accept the conclusions. And you like the court analogy until it turns against your story.
 
Well the point of all this is consistency. Routine things happen all the time. Extraordinary things happen quite rarely and impossible things never happen. That's how we consistently interpret the world around us. And it's how we determine what probably happened in history.

In a big city someone gets killed by being shot nearly every day. In the same big city someone gets killed by getting struck by lightning about once every 30 years. In the same big city someone gets killed by being the victim of an actual vampire zero times in forever. Detectives don't begin their investigation by trying to exclude vampires from the list of suspects (except on TV).

There's no reason to believe the world worked differently 2000 years ago than it does today. There is every reason to believe that in a time of near universal illiteracy people were more likely to believe in a fountain of youth, magical fruits, vampires, demons and healing pools troubled by angels. They were more likely to accept tales of physics-defying activities performed by supernatural agents. Many believed that diseases were the results of demons living inside human beings.

The popular acceptance of extraordinary tales from such periods of inability to fact-check is to be expected. Even in this age of nearly universal access to the Internet and copious means for fact-checking insane hoaxes and downright lies still abound and gain wide acceptance.

Nobody ever did the extraordinary things written in these myths about Jesus any more than Perseus slew a medusa or Prometheus sacrificed his liver (and grew it back) every day for giving fire to humans. These stories filled many purposes during more superstitious times, but all of them should be recognized for what they are today.
 
The origin of Christ belief is the historical evidence, not the believer's imagination.

Dead people don't rise up from the grave and wander around in the streets, or fly off into the sky under their own power. This has been explained to you in depth and I am not going to repeat myself again. And it is dishonest to pretend that you don't understand what the word supernatural means, or how historians evaluate historical records.

I don't think you realize. Christians are unwilling to distinguish between the God of their imagination (brain generated God that runs stuff in their head) and a real God.

You're not describing Christ-believers who take the miracle acts of Jesus in the Gospels as basic. Believing something from the 1st-century documents reporting it as actual events has nothing to do with the believer's imagination. Even if the reports are false, it's not the believer's imagination which produced it, but an external source reporting it, like the documents which report historical events, which accounts might be true or fictional. But even if it's fictional, even wacked-out, it's not the believer's imagination which produced it, or their brain or imaginary God. The origin of it is the 1st-century documents, not later believers, anymore than the historian's knowledge originates from his imagination or brain.

The basic miracle acts of Jesus are not a product of anyone's imagination later, since the time they were recorded in those 1st-century accounts. Even if those events are fictitious, they are not generated in any later believer's brain or imagination, but are an input from the real world, from evidence, like other reported facts of history.


They give their brain God free reign.

No, the Christ-believer yields to the reported events in those 1st-century documents. These don't originate from the brain of the believers today. If anything, they have to SUPPRESS their "brain God" at times and put in its place the "real God" who is revealed in those events. The believer today is not free to set his "brain God" loose to "make up shit" coming from his/her imagination, but has to conform to the reported events which really happened, or which the evidence says happened, regardless what one's imagination might prefer to have happened.


What does this mean? They have full blown hallucinatory scenarios, in which people die, raise from the dead, etc.

No, they're not hallucinating it, because they derive it from the reported events in the 1st century, i.e., from the documents or evidence of the events. When you believe someone else's written account of what happened you are not hallucinating those happenings, even if what's reported is dubious.


They attribute this to God... instead of the entertainment center of their brain . . .

How could you attribute to their brain something which existed before their brain existed? If you want to "attribute" this to anything, it's to the writers of the 1st-century documents who report the events, or to the sources those writers used.

You could attribute later theology to the brain of the theologian centuries later, but not the belief in the miracle acts of Jesus, which existed first, before the theologian. There's a proper term we have for reports from documents written near the time of the alleged events, which is "EVIDENCE" -- not imagination or the brain, regardless whether it's entertaining to someone.

. . . entertainment center of their brain (which is quite overdeveloped in the majority of Christians).

So it's a prefrontal lobotomy they need?


They need to be killed off.

But that wouldn't eliminate the real culprit, which is the reported miracles of Jesus, in the evidence. To remove that nuisance you have to round up all the ancient manuscripts and burn them. Once you eliminate all the sources we have for this one unique reported event in history, then you'll finally make us all safe -- or at least future humans will be saved from these subversive notions, because the evidence will have been eradicated. So that's the solution? Eliminate evidence from the past of anything you want not to have happened? to make the world better?


Make the world a good place for intellectually honest people.

And probably also plant new evidence, of events you wish had happened instead. Rewrite history by replacing the existing evidence with new scenarios which would be more wholesome for people to believe.


Just say "we're sending you to your maker".

Killing them? No, that doesn't remove the real problem, which is the ancient documents reporting the events you want not to have happened. It's those documents causing the current problem of people believing Jesus did those miracle acts. What's troubling you is that people base their belief on evidence, and since you can't stop them from believing evidence, your best solution is to remove the evidence itself. Have it all destroyed, and then you can claim it's from their imagination rather than from real events which happened.


They always come up with an excuse though . . .

But that will finally stop happening once you've eliminated all the evidence, by eradicating all those ancient manuscripts and depriving the believers of the original source of their problem, which is the evidence of what happened in the 1st century. Once that nuisance is removed, there's nothing driving them to come with more excuses for continuing to hold these inconvenient beliefs. Wiping out history, or at least that one part of it, is your best hope of fixing the world to your liking.


. . . come up with an excuse though (their brain God knows... even if they don't... the clock is ticking).

But instead of killing them, which is politically incorrect, just have President Trump create factory jobs to put them in, to keep them out of mischief.

Problem solved!
 
.... snip ....

But the question is not 'turns out to be true,' the question was about the weight of hearsay as evidence.

You would not accept really poorly supported claims and wild tales if you were not predisposed to accept the conclusions.
That is the bootstrap logic of the religious. The wild tales are told in order to convince people that Jesus was indeed a god since only a god could do such things. The wild tales are then believable to them because Jesus, being a god, can do such stuff.

It's sorta like two people cooperating to reach something hanging fifteen feet above the ground. One stands on the other's shoulders but still can't reach it. The person on bottom tells the one on his shoulders to just stay where he is and the one on bottom will climb up and stand on his shoulders.
 
Back
Top Bottom