For the Love of God

[Ramaraksha]

Whenever i hear of people saying that the love God, I think how is that possible? We have no idea if he or she or it even exists! No one has a clue what he, she, or it even looks like, no idea where He lives, what he wants - we have zero information. So how is that possible to love something that we have no information about - ah, it is the idea of God that they love and what is that idea?

Assume you are a nerdy-looking guy, don't have a great job, have a few friends but there are others who don't care for you, will cross the street just to avoid saying hi, women who take one look at you and turn you down for dates, the parties that you don't get invited to. And then suddenly a life change - you win the big lottery, now rich beyond your dreams. Suddenly you find new friends, suddenly you are the most loved guy - those guys who used to cross the street to avoid you? Well they are doing the opposite now, crossing the street just to say hi. Your dating life has improved by leaps and bounds, you are invited to all sorts of parties and get togethers!

Unless you are a total dummy you know that all this "love", your new found popularity is not for you as a person but for your wallet. This "love" for God is all about what God can do for them - the eternal easy life in Heaven - enjoy the easy good life that awaits them and so the tail-wagging begins. Pathetic!

 

[another1]

it is the idea of God that they love and what is that idea?

The idea of love is what people love when it comes to any kind of love - not just love for God. It is psychological. The idea is enough for everything, isn't it?

Assume you are a nerdy-looking guy, don't have a great job, have a few friends but there are others who don't care for you, will cross the street just to avoid saying hi, women who take one look at you and turn you down for dates, the parties that you don't get invited to. And then suddenly a life change - you win the big lottery, now rich beyond your dreams. Suddenly you find new friends, suddenly you are the most loved guy...

That exact thing happened to me, but it wasn't the lottery. All I did was join a Church and give God control over my life. Ever since, life has been so much better. Good luck and more opportunities for success. Women want to sleep with me and I get lots of free stuff. I do love it. I love what makes that possible. Why wouldn't I?

This "love" for God is all about what God can do for them - the eternal easy life in Heaven - enjoy the easy good life that awaits them and so the tail-wagging begins

Fact of life. If you break things down, there is no difference when relating that to all things in life. Thirsty = drink some fluid. Hungry = eat some sandwiches. Wanting to have cool stuff = working hard to make money for someone, so you can have a little money to buy cool stuff.

We're "tail wagging" every second of the day, for every ounce of oxygen we inhale, but when something like God threatens our imagined sense of independence (or whatever) we sometimes get pissy and act like there is no God. Life is going to make us whores any way we look at it, so why not have a decent pimp? If we're trying to be reasonable, there should be no need to debate what must be done - unless we just want to feel better out ourselves, which essentially is why we ever love anything at all.

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

The idea of love is what people love when it comes to any kind of love - not just love for God. It is psychological. The idea is enough for everything, isn't it?

That exact thing happened to me, but it wasn't the lottery. All I did was join a Church and give God control over my life. Ever since, life has been so much better. Good luck and more opportunities for success. Women want to sleep with me and I get lots of free stuff. I do love it. I love what makes that possible. Why wouldn't I?

For some reason I'm visualising a shampoo advert.
Other people manage this without religion: how do they do it? Self-belief, inner sense of confidence, perhaps they meet the right people, sometimes a shock can bring it out. Many many methods and approaches are possible.

Fact of life. If you break things down, there is no difference when relating that to all things in life. Thirsty = drink some fluid. Hungry = eat some sandwiches. Wanting to have cool stuff = working hard to make money for someone, so you can have a little money to buy cool stuff.

We're "tail wagging" every second of the day, for every ounce of oxygen we inhale, but when something like God threatens our imagined sense of independence (or whatever) we sometimes get pissy and act like there is no God. Life is going to make us whores any way we look at it, so why not have a decent pimp? If we're trying to be reasonable, there should be no need to debate what must be done - unless we just want to feel better out ourselves, which essentially is why we ever love anything at all.

Feel down in the dumps? Join an organisation the head of which treats you like a whore. Although strictly speaking you don't need a church for that. I'm a bit bewildered though as to how being treated like a whore can help you build lasting confidence and happiness. The idea of handing over control can be liberating but may not give the results one expects, for example if I am freezing cold and stuck in the middle of the countryside with no shelter I could urinate in my trousers to bring warmth.

An imaginary entity threatens our imagined sense of independence? We get angry and then pretend that an imaginary entity isn't in fact imaginary? No I can't say that I've ever experienced such a thing.
Judging by the OT and the Quran I'm not sure that 'decent' is a word that springs readily to mind.

 

[another1]

Feel down in the dumps? Join an organisation the head of which treats you like a whore. Although strictly speaking you don't need a church for that.

What I was saying Jason is that people are already whores before they join an organization that treats them like whores. They at least receive a reasonable payment for the 24/7 penetration they're going to feel, when the organization is (in my experience) a Christian Church. Yes they can get their payment in many ways but reasonable people look around and consider how much effort they are willing to put into their whore costumes, and where they want to turn their tricks. Since we're all dirty hookers in the most sincere way, and you agree with that fact, why should we have this forced intercourse without receiving the most payment available? Why put extra thought into it? Extra physical effort? It all comes down to simple common sense and I think you agree.

An imaginary entity threatens our imagined sense of independence? We get angry and then pretend that an imaginary entity isn't in fact imaginary?

Is it really imaginary? Sometimes it is more at work in the lives of resistors, than in the lives of people who readily accept reality. Reality being brothels everywhere you look, and someone always trying to insert something into your body or take something out. Always someone wanting you to do something you don't want to do, to the point that you actually begin believing that you want to. They prefabricate these choices and make the lists long, so that you'll think you actually had a choice. But it still equated to a penis inside you at the end of the day. They hold you down and put things into you all your life. Seriously Jason how imagined is this situation? I think you know what I meant, and I think you somewhat agree.

 

[Ramaraksha]

We're "tail wagging" every second of the day, for every ounce of oxygen we inhale, but when something like God threatens our imagined sense of independence (or whatever) we sometimes get pissy and act like there is no God. Life is going to make us whores any way we look at it, so why not have a decent pimp? If we're trying to be reasonable, there should be no need to debate what must be done - unless we just want to feel better out ourselves, which essentially is why we ever love anything at all.

imagined? There is as much evidence for God as it is for the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman.

Acting like there is no God puts the onus on us - we take responsibility for what we have done, we must correct it, set things right - not think that some deity will take pity on us and let us go without doing the right thing. It is comforting to think there is a nice being looking down on us and a bit frightening to think that we are all alone. Must have happened to you some time ago when you were told that there is no Santa - the thought of Santa bringing gifts was comforting wasn't it? Made you happy?

 

[humbleman]

Sometimes I read and listen from people who mock of religious dudes calling them names.

By my own experience, I have noticed that religious people are very happy people.

Last religious person I have met is a doctor. A good doctor. An excellent doctor, and he believes in the biblical god.

Why other people insult them? I guess jealousy, because religious people are happy while the critics always insult and insult for something that at the end of the day is not even their business... ha ha ha ha...

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

Sometimes I read and listen from people who mock of religious dudes calling them names.

By my own experience, I have noticed that religious people are very happy people.

Last religious person I have met is a doctor. A good doctor. An excellent doctor, and he believes in the biblical god.

Why other people insult them? I guess jealousy, because religious people are happy while the critics always insult and insult for something that at the end of the day is not even their business... ha ha ha ha...

Happiness is a good thing, I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different. Happiness comes in many forms, sometimes its in subtley taking the mickey. If this is one of the ways in which I find happiness then it is one of the ways in which I find happiness. But there are a huge number of things that make me happy, and this is just one of them. Could be a small dog barking at a bee. Could be a child's laughter. Could be a wonderful painting. Quite frequently it is a piece of music or an incredible natural environment. Or an amazing piece of machinery. Or some fantastic film. Or something delicious to eat. But continual happiness I don't see as normal or possible. But its more to do with when what is being pushed is that the only way to be truly happy is to believe in the same god. This takes the form of a MO or an agenda, a message to be spread. I don't do this (spread my happiness agenda) because I respect the reasons others have to be happy and also because I think it can rely on a delicate balance...but I respect my own right to subtley take the mickey out of them where I see an agenda is being pushed. It is your right to assume its about jealousy but from my POV I don't feel jealous. I would, however, like them to see the fun and humour inherent in their own position. Last 'religious' person I met had dumped Christianity and adopted Buddhism. A good person. An excellent person, and he no longer believes in the biblical god.

 

[Learner]

imagined? There is as much evidence for God as it is for the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman.

Where are the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman evangelists? Are there no congregations , not even legends.... is it that there are zilch people that ever believed in them?

These must therefore be what you rightly call "fairy tales".

 

[another1]

Acting like there is no God puts the onus on us - we take responsibility for what we have done, we must correct it, set things right - not think that some deity will take pity on us and let us go without doing the right thing.

Sometimes that attitude goes against reason. Life is full of imaginary things that have even more impact than real ones. In the end of life it won't matter what was real or not. And you should consider how much sense it makes to swat at an invisible fly. Other people will see you swatting and think there is a fly there. Then you've done the opposite of what you should have done. If there is an invisible fly in the room I just watch people smack their necks and laugh at them. No use telling them the fly is invisible because that just makes more invisible flies come. They are sneaky and it is a real shame. The situation.

It is comforting to think there is a nice being looking down on us and a bit frightening to think that we are all alone. Must have happened to you some time ago when you were told that there is no Santa

Santa cartoons and advertisements still run every year. Coca Cola and whatnot. Santa is still very real in my life. I doesn't matter if he is made up. Everything is made up, even the fact that everything is made up. So please explain why it makes sense to condemn Santa for being unreal. It's not his fault. Isn't it easier to hum a Christmas Carol, than try to tune it out? That is a very simple way of putting things, and it bugs even me to see someone say that but it is very true. I'd argue that you CAN'T tune them out. Trying to do it could drive someone insane, which would leave them worse off than they were to begin with.

the thought of Santa bringing gifts was comforting wasn't it? Made you happy?

It does make me happy to receive gifts. Santa's inexistence doesn't make the gifts unreal. That would suck. When it comes to Santa, we may be dealing with a situation where it is just too late. Too much energy has been put into making him real in the minds of Children. Child minds are very powerful. They have a lot of influence on reality. Yep too late. Forget about it.

By my own experience, I have noticed that religious people are very happy people

Yeah it always pissed me off to see people hypnotized into a state of constant joy. Back when I was constantly lost in thought and miserable I hated on them big time. I was way too concerned with what is real or unreal. Then I thought hmm maybe what is real, is only real, because of repetitious thought that builds things over time, and even colors were once fake. A residue builds up like a public pool full of skin cells. When you drain it out there is enough skin matter there to make an entire person. It crawls off like a worm and hides somewhere. It sneaks back in and bam another person is swimming in the pool.

Happiness comes in many forms, sometimes its in subtly taking the mickey.

Maybe we take the mickey the moment we wake up in the morning and assume we're awake. Mickeys taken after that are double mickeys, and by the end of the day we're in triple mickey territory.

It is your right to assume its about jealousy but from my POV I don't feel jealous

I too get frustrated with happy people who want to spread their happiness. Ew get away from me with your nonsense. It seems corny and weak to me. Like... wow this person has no idea what is going on in reality. They could never know what I need. Why are they trying to explain God's love? It does get me mad but I take it easy on them because happy people don't know any better. Happiness does something to the brain that makes a person behave in ways that enrage unhappy people. That is more like astute observance of ignorance, than jealously. But if I'm unhappy, and they're happy, who is really the stupid one? For all their ignorance, they are unknowingly wise beyond my understanding of the situation, and that gives a lot of purpose and meaning to whatever corny, unreal thing they believe.

 

[Hermit]

Whenever i hear of people saying that the love God, I think how is that possible?

"God" doesn't enter into it any more. It's been a threadbare cliché for a long time now. The precise meaning is "Just fucking do/stop doing it already". No more, no less.

 

[Juma]

Sometimes that attitude goes against reason. Life is full of imaginary things that have even more impact than real ones. In the end of life it won't matter what was real or not. And you should consider how much sense it makes to swat at an invisible fly. Other people will see you swatting and think there is a fly there. Then you've done the opposite of what you should have done. If there is an invisible fly in the room I just watch people smack their necks and laugh at them. No use telling them the fly is invisible because that just makes more invisible flies come. They are sneaky and it is a real shame. The situation.



Santa cartoons and advertisements still run every year. Coca Cola and whatnot. Santa is still very real in my life. I doesn't matter if he is made up. Everything is made up, even the fact that everything is made up. So please explain why it makes sense to condemn Santa for being unreal. It's not his fault. Isn't it easier to hum a Christmas Carol, than try to tune it out? That is a very simple way of putting things, and it bugs even me to see someone say that but it is very true. I'd argue that you CAN'T tune them out. Trying to do it could drive someone insane, which would leave them worse off than they were to begin with.

the thought of Santa bringing gifts was comforting wasn't it? Made you happy?

It does make me happy to receive gifts. Santa's inexistence doesn't make the gifts unreal. That would suck. When it comes to Santa, we may be dealing with a situation where it is just too late. Too much energy has been put into making him real in the minds of Children. Child minds are very powerful. They have a lot of influence on reality. Yep too late. Forget about it.

By my own experience, I have noticed that religious people are very happy people

Yeah it always pissed me off to see people hypnotized into a state of constant joy. Back when I was constantly lost in thought and miserable I hated on them big time. I was way too concerned with what is real or unreal. Then I thought hmm maybe what is real, is only real, because of repetitious thought that builds things over time, and even colors were once fake. A residue builds up like a public pool full of skin cells. When you drain it out there is enough skin matter there to make an entire person. It crawls off like a worm and hides somewhere. It sneaks back in and bam another person is swimming in the pool.

Happiness comes in many forms, sometimes its in subtly taking the mickey.

Maybe we take the mickey the moment we wake up in the morning and assume we're awake. Mickeys taken after that are double mickeys, and by the end of the day we're in triple mickey territory.

It is your right to assume its about jealousy but from my POV I don't feel jealous

I too get frustrated with happy people who want to spread their happiness. Ew get away from me with your nonsense. It seems corny and weak to me. Like... wow this person has no idea what is going on in reality. They could never know what I need. Why are they trying to explain God's love? It does get me mad but I take it easy on them because happy people don't know any better. Happiness does something to the brain that makes a person behave in ways that enrage unhappy people. That is more like astute observance of ignorance, than jealously. But if I'm unhappy, and they're happy, who is really the stupid one? For all their ignorance, they are unknowingly wise beyond my understanding of the situation, and that gives a lot of purpose and meaning to whatever corny, unreal thing they believe.

So it is wise to beliege in a ”corny unreal” that condemn homosexuals etc just because it makes you cosy? Hell no..

 

[Juma]

imagined? There is as much evidence for God as it is for the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman.

Where are the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman evangelists? Are there no congregations , not even legends.... is it that there are zilch people that ever believed in them?

These must therefore be what you rightly call "fairy tales".

Come on man. That there are evangelists and believers is no indication it being true. Even you must realize that?

 

[OLDMAN]

At the end of the day does the truth matter to you? If so, then you have a responsibility to present it. Wishing, pretending, ignoring reality won't get you to the truth. Not even close.

 

[whollygoats]

imagined? There is as much evidence for God as it is for the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman.

Where are the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman evangelists? Are there no congregations , not even legends.... is it that there are zilch people that ever believed in them?

These must therefore be what you rightly call "fairy tales".

Come on man. That there are evangelists and believers is no indication it being true. Even you must realize that?

Besides, in my day, every smoke shop, news stand, or pharmacy that could stack DC or Marvel comics on their racks was an evangelist for Superman, Batman, Spiderman and more!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

imagined? There is as much evidence for God as it is for the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman.

Where are the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Superman or Spiderman evangelists? Are there no congregations , not even legends.... is it that there are zilch people that ever believed in them?

These must therefore be what you rightly call "fairy tales".

Come on man. That there are evangelists and believers is no indication it being true. Even you must realize that?

Someone is splitting woo hair.

 

[another1]

At the end of the day does the truth matter to you? If so, then you have a responsibility to present it. Wishing, pretending, ignoring reality won't get you to the truth. Not even close.

I give my brain rewards and help me immensely in life. I expose myself to situations that propel me socially and financially. Romantically and so on. At the end of the day that does help me immensely. And as for truth and presenting it responsibly, I can admit to being selfish and human - and behave that way because reason shows that there is no choice in the matter. Wishing there was a choice and aspiring to be a better human is where ignoring reality comes in. But I do agree that it is a good way to think, if you're willing to lose out in life in many, many ways. In 250 years it may even make a difference, but by atheist thinking, that wouldn't matter at all. Tough decision that requires humility and high reasoning.

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

Sometimes that attitude goes against reason. Life is full of imaginary things that have even more impact than real ones. In the end of life it won't matter what was real or not. And you should consider how much sense it makes to swat at an invisible fly. Other people will see you swatting and think there is a fly there. Then you've done the opposite of what you should have done. If there is an invisible fly in the room I just watch people smack their necks and laugh at them. No use telling them the fly is invisible because that just makes more invisible flies come. They are sneaky and it is a real shame. The situation.

I too get frustrated with happy people who want to spread their happiness. Ew get away from me with your nonsense. It seems corny and weak to me. Like... wow this person has no idea what is going on in reality. They could never know what I need. Why are they trying to explain God's love? It does get me mad but I take it easy on them because happy people don't know any better. Happiness does something to the brain that makes a person behave in ways that enrage unhappy people. That is more like astute observance of ignorance, than jealously. But if I'm unhappy, and they're happy, who is really the stupid one? For all their ignorance, they are unknowingly wise beyond my understanding of the situation, and that gives a lot of purpose and meaning to whatever corny, unreal thing they believe.

The god that you believe in - there isn't anything that we can put our fingers on collectively and say "Yes, this is sound". I find it a little odd that you think that people swatting imaginary flies are "funny" (and "sneaky", I really have no idea what you were getting at here). How is believing that a non-existent being is somehow real - and worshipping it - any different from this? I fail to see the distinction. If anything yours is "funnier" because of the claims made for what it has done/continues to do.

Its not the happiness per se, its the agenda. There's a push there, a "hey, you should try this". Its not just "I'm happy", there's a ton of accompanying baggage. For what its worth its not a bad thing to be aware if it is your beliefs that are the source of your happiness. Beliefs have a funny habit of changing through one's life. If there is a reliance on batting certain thoughts and theories away, or special pleading, or appeals to logic/illogic, just be aware that you may get to a point that you find it a greater struggle than it had been before to justify. This isn't about the devil or being tested - these are just mechanisms used to keep people - the followers - in check...to me, for example, they are all imaginary. I'm not "evil" or "mistaken" or "pretending" or "angry" or "misled" or any of a thousand other words used to describe people who don't adhere to religion. It is good to be aware of why such approaches and techniques are used.

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

At the end of the day does the truth matter to you? If so, then you have a responsibility to present it. Wishing, pretending, ignoring reality won't get you to the truth. Not even close.

I give my brain rewards and help me immensely in life. I expose myself to situations that propel me socially and financially. Romantically and so on. At the end of the day that does help me immensely. And as for truth and presenting it responsibly, I can admit to being selfish and human - and behave that way because reason shows that there is no choice in the matter. Wishing there was a choice and aspiring to be a better human is where ignoring reality comes in. But I do agree that it is a good way to think, if you're willing to lose out in life in many, many ways. In 250 years it may even make a difference, but by atheist thinking, that wouldn't matter at all. Tough decision that requires humility and high reasoning.

I'm not sure what you are saying with your first sentence.

Where is this "losing out in life" stuff coming from exactly? I can understand that you are happy, I believe you. At the moment its strong for you but sometimes something can happen which causes it to fall away. True, this can happen regardless of the source of happiness, but if the source is embedded in your life at many levels it may have a greater impact when it fails to make you happy. I'm not saying that this is going to happen to you specifically- I'm saying that the possibility exists for us all regardless of the form and strength it has. You seem to be struggling to understand how someone who doesn't believe what you do can be happy. There are - as has been mentioned already - many sources and noone can say with any certainty that one is more valid or valuable than any other. What works for one may not for another. It may even be a mistake to attempt to define exactly what is making you happy AND why it is making you happy; it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to analyse something to such an extent that you may arrive at an explanation that doesn't satisfy you, doesn't quite grasp the nature of the moment and, hey presto, it can evaporate and leave you with a sense of loss.

 

[another1]

Where is this "losing out in life" stuff coming from exactly?

You're already aware how much you can miss out on, all the way to an awkward 80% Christian populated funeral. And everything before that. You're American right? Yeah most people you know are pretending to love God. That is very frustrating. It makes me want to grab people and shake the God out of them. Wow I'm sorry you have to deal with that all day. I know of only one solution, and trying to give it doesn't mean I don't understand. I understand what you mean. And nah.

You seem to be struggling to understand how someone who doesn't believe what you do can be happy.

I'm sure people pretending they don't struggle with God can be happy but the struggle itself can be a huge depression. Then there is the void that can't possibly be filled without totally lying to yourself. The sinking darkness that comes when we become adults and start to age can't be avoided, and the only way to deal with it is through distraction. A potent distractor can take a lifetime to find and by then it is too late anyway. That can cause the blues. Then the reality that everyone else is in a trance, oh man what a bummer. There really is no choice and it doesn't matter anyway, if nobody else understands. To know just a handfull of people you think understand just makes the whole party miserable. Forever. Incompleteness, frustration, suffering that builds with each pointless day and an anticlimactic end - when Christians read a few good words about you and then forget you ever lived. An intense feeling of falling every other moment, when reality passes through you without taking you with it. There is no use to fight unless you like to suffer. Some start to believe that suffering is the only source for feeling. They may be right. Reality is based on convincing yourself that things that are not there, are there. There would be no reality at all, if we instinctually couldn't do this. FULLY enjoying reality requires presto same trick.

it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to analyse something to such an extent that you may arrive at an explanation that doesn't satisfy you, doesn't quite grasp the nature of the moment and, hey presto, it can evaporate and leave you with a sense of loss.

Yeah I agree, and that is kinda what I was talking about. We're all stuck, going nowhere. We're dying. When we die we'll be so self deluded and pathetic. It is just a matter of what we delude ourselves with, and how it rhymes with our culture and what we want to have. Not to sound like a downer or anything, but all in all there is no use fighting. We should cling to the strongest rock we are whipped by in these rapids. And then convince ourselves we're doing something meaningful until we are dead. So considering all that you can agree now I'm sure.

 

[Jason the Rationalist]

another1, I can't really follow where you are going with this but I wish you luck. I'm not American, no, not that I can see how that has any bearing on anything being discussed.