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General religion

Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict?

I would. I have thought this since I first questioned my faith at the age of... the moment I was told that I had to have “faith”. This was around 8 years old.
It just made no sense at all to expect an ALL POWERFUL being to be so horribly bad at communicating.

It made no sense. And I never could force it to.

This “god” was supposed to have the skill to program DNA... but it couldn’t communicate a biscuit recipe.
It made no sense.
It makes no sense.

If a god exists, not one of us - ever - should have to argue about it. It should be able to settle any argument before it starts.
But that’s not what we see.


Yet we have the opposite.

I would posit that we have “the absence,” because there is no entity that sows discord either.
There’s no entity either way. Nothing to sow understanding, nothing to sow discord; just the wind whistling past the rotating surface of the unguided planet.
 
Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict?

I would. I have thought this since I first questioned my faith at the age of... the moment I was told that I had to have “faith”. This was around 8 years old.
It just made no sense at all to expect an ALL POWERFUL being to be so horribly bad at communicating.

It made no sense. And I never could force it to.

This “god” was supposed to have the skill to program DNA... but it couldn’t communicate a biscuit recipe.
It made no sense.
It makes no sense.

If a god exists, not one of us - ever - should have to argue about it. It should be able to settle any argument before it starts.
But that’s not what we see.


Yet we have the opposite.

I would posit that we have “the absence,” because there is no entity that sows discord either.
There’s no entity either way. Nothing to sow understanding, nothing to sow discord; just the wind whistling past the rotating surface of the unguided planet.

I dunno. I'm glad of the reality of the benefits of being good to one another, and not letting others be awful to you, or others who wish not of it and commit to not, to such an extent themselves.

That speaks powerfully to me that if there is something intelligent out there, it might have given us a world where it could be seen by anything, the something of which happens to include us. All we have to do is do it, reach for more and work to make the consequences less or none, but not defer them as has been the recent madness.
 
Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict?

I would. I have thought this since I first questioned my faith at the age of... the moment I was told that I had to have “faith”. This was around 8 years old.
It just made no sense at all to expect an ALL POWERFUL being to be so horribly bad at communicating.

It made no sense. And I never could force it to.

This “god” was supposed to have the skill to program DNA... but it couldn’t communicate a biscuit recipe.
It made no sense.
It makes no sense.

If a god exists, not one of us - ever - should have to argue about it. It should be able to settle any argument before it starts.
But that’s not what we see.


Yet we have the opposite.

I would posit that we have “the absence,” because there is no entity that sows discord either.
There’s no entity either way. Nothing to sow understanding, nothing to sow discord; just the wind whistling past the rotating surface of the unguided planet.

These are excellent points. I also began to have doubts about what I had been told to believe when I was about 7 or 8. Unfortunately, because my father kept telling me that one day god would explain why he sent people to hell forever simply for not believing, was enough of an answer to keep me in line until I was about 18. But, maybe it was a good thing that I believed most of the nonsense until I was 18. My childhood and teenage years would have been horrible if I had told my parents that their god was evil and there was no way the stories I had been taught has a child could be real. Luckily, I finally had the courage to do my own thinking. That eventually freed me from the cruel religious dogma I had been taught was the truth.

I never blamed my parents. They were simply victims of brainwashing.
 
I dunno. I'm glad of the reality of the benefits of being good to one another, and not letting others be awful to you, or others who wish not of it and commit to not, to such an extent themselves.

That speaks powerfully to me that if there is something intelligent out there, it might have given us a world where it could be seen by anything, the something of which happens to include us. All we have to do is do it, reach for more and work to make the consequences less or none, but not defer them as has been the recent madness.

I don’t understand. Can you rephrase?

Humans give the benefit of feedback to each other on their actions. The lack of communication by a god vs the “after death” feedback threat does not obviate the lack of communication.
 
I dunno. I'm glad of the reality of the benefits of being good to one another, and not letting others be awful to you, or others who wish not of it and commit to not, to such an extent themselves.

That speaks powerfully to me that if there is something intelligent out there, it might have given us a world where it could be seen by anything, the something of which happens to include us. All we have to do is do it, reach for more and work to make the consequences less or none, but not defer them as has been the recent madness.

I don’t understand. Can you rephrase?

Humans give the benefit of feedback to each other on their actions. The lack of communication by a god vs the “after death” feedback threat does not obviate the lack of communication.

So, I create universe's full of life and living acting entities all the time. I do so in what may be considered reckless abandon in fact for the denizens of the universes I create. I rarely if ever make any channel by which I could communicate I to the universes I create.

Oftentimes, the reality of the situation is that I wish to see if the parameters of the simulation are such that the denizens of that simulation will eventually hold a behavioral model that solves some problem.

This is common practice, to see if some parameter of a simulation allows emergence of certain behavioral traits. Oftentimes these are traits I myself cant be arsed to describe coherently or vigorously.

With the universe itself, there is always only the text.

But within the universes I wantonly create perhaps as a "bad" god, there is generally some shape within it that can be observed through the impacts on the entities in it that will allow eventual convergence around a solution.

The problems that we see on a broad and social basis allow a philosophical convergence on a model for understanding ethical behavior.

Many things are capable of reaching the convergence point assuming a universe with rules like ours since darwinistic entities will eventually become capable of holding, recording, reading, communicating and testing information, and then the question is just how long before they pick up ethics rather than contining with social darwinism.

I could run this universe a thousand times and I will guarantee I will get bizarre and far flung answers as to what life I get but I am pretty much certain that descent with modification and filtered by natural selection will occur and eventually turn out individuals capable of in-vivo modification with communication and filtered generally with non-catastrophic testing that recognize the differences of implications between those two strategies.

If your goal is generalized yet entirely absurd problem solvers, creating a universe like this one would yield many interesting results.

If there is a god though with such goals, the after death feedback threat is a lie of lying men. There is no available knowledge of after death. Only the knowledge of a universe in which there are real benefits to us for being good to each other. And that should be reason enough to be so good.

I don't believe much about god, but I think that if there is one, the wouldn't make something work well for ourselves AND others, and then judge us negatively for doing that.
 
Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict? Yet we have the opposite.

God's word is clear and concise enough for me.
 
Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict? Yet we have the opposite.

God's word is clear and concise enough for me.

Yet other theists don't agree with your interpretation of bible theology. Jews don't agree with Christians, Christians don't agree amongst themselves, neither agree with Mohammad, while Hinduism is altogether different....
 
Within the previous religion topic of Christianity, those others were the prophets or annointed.

I just had a discussion with god and he told me that both the Christians and Muslims are full of shit - that he hadn't communicated with either. He said that he gave his real message to Gautama Buddha.

Now the question would be, how could you objectively determine which, if any, were trustworthy?

I see your point! Will have to ponder on it for a bit. Your communication with a god seems quite "convincing."

I can't see his point.

Why do we need to come up with some new formula for objectively determining if what we hear is rationally coherent or implicitly reasonable? Humans communicate with one another all the time and we don't live in a perpetual state of confusion wondering whether the other person is objectively 'full of shit'.

If billions of human beings throughout history have all unanimously corroborated the sensory experience/evidence that a Higher Power exists, we don't need some unique epistemic investigatory method to objectively critique that claim...just in case every single one of those people was 'full of shit'

If someone tells me God gave His 'real' message to Buddha and never to anyone else, I'll treat that claim the same as I would if an atheist told me there is no God.

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Within the previous religion topic of Christianity, those others were the prophets or annointed.

I just had a discussion with god and he told me that both the Christians and Muslims are full of shit - that he hadn't communicated with either. He said that he gave his real message to Gautama Buddha.

Now the question would be, how could you objectively determine which, if any, were trustworthy?

I see your point! Will have to ponder on it for a bit. Your communication with a god seems quite "convincing."

I can't see his point.

Why do we need to come up with some new formula for objectively determining if what we hear is rationally coherent or implicitly reasonable? Humans communicate with one another all the time and we don't live in a perpetual state of confusion wondering whether the other person is objectively 'full of shit'.

If billions of human beings throughout history have all unanimously corroborated the sensory experience/evidence that a Higher Power exists, we don't need some unique epistemic investigatory method to objectively critique that claim...just in case every single one of those people was 'full of shit'

If someone tells me God gave His 'real' message to Buddha and never to anyone else, I'll treat that claim the same as I would if an atheist told me there is no God.
Interesting take. So you take all religions who claim to have revelations from god have actually had revelations from god? God really did reveal to Pope Urban II that he should kill Muslims who occupied the Holy Lands so as to retake the territory? God really did reveal to militant Muslims that they should force infidels to convert, pay a tax, or kill them? God really did reveal to the Aztec that they must make human sacrifices? Etc. etc.

Or do you really believe that whatever your particular concept of god is, is what everyone of all other religions "really" believe? - - If so, it is obvious that you haven't ever discussed religion with those in non-abrahamic religions or even in some specific Christian sects.
 
For me, the multiplicity and discordance of the faith traditions are the strongest indications that all religion is illusory. The common denominator is man's imagination, tempered by the power structures, legends, taboos, and various cultural traditions that obtained where each faith developed. How many centuries before all these flamboyantly weird scriptures are just stories?

(2120 CE) "And the Oscar for best original song goes to...It's Hard Out Here for a Priest!"
 
God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

God has never communicated with me. Not once. Your assertion that he has done so is untrue.

I have never needed God for anything. And I cannot imagine a scenario where I would need to turn to an imaginary sky-friend for help. Feel free to explain what time you are referring to when we will come to realize that we need God? Is this meant to be a veiled threat? Toe the line and bow before God, or else ...?

Polite reminder - there is a fine line between preaching and discussion. Please be mindful.
 
God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

We are told by others that God did that. We have not heard it from God. Always those who speak of behalf of their version of God...never God.

I believe those who don't believe, is less likely to. Those "others" communicated with God, should be sufficient enough imo.

Sufficient for who? And to accomplish what purpose? Who communicated with God? What is the evidence that this communication happened? Do you have enough evidence to demonstrate that these people even existed, much less that they communicated with a creature from outside the natural universe; a creature that cloned itself in human form so it could then have the clone sacrificed to itself, and thus bring itself to forgive humans who it had created broken to begin with? Is that the god you are talking about? (Yes, I know; it doesn't make any sense when it say it plainly, without the mystery and ritual that is typically used to cover up a nonsensical story.)
 
There is a difference between seeking truth and creating truth. In other words:

And a difference between genuinely seeking and not.


Testing ,Studying, 1, 2, 3,.

Tell me how I can go about testing for God. Lay it out, 1, 2, 3 - a step-by-step process I can use to test for God's existence, and a course of study to figure out it's characteristics, just like you said. And please explain what distinguishes the "genuine" seeker from the "non-genuine" kind?

I know you won't do any of this, because what you "know" about God would comfortably fit on the head of a small pin, with room to spare. Preaching is easy, doing the work is hard.
 
Genuine seeking:
1. Read Bible.
2. Believe Bible.
3. "Genuinely seek" by reading and believing the Bible some more.

Numbers 1 and 2 are reversible, and probably that's the more usual procedure in "genuinely seeking". And #1 is replaceable with "listen to preachers" in many cases.
 
Genuine seeking:
1. Read Bible.
2. Believe Bible.
3. "Genuinely seek" by reading and believing the Bible some more.

Numbers 1 and 2 are reversible, and probably that's the more usual procedure in "genuinely seeking". And #1 is replaceable with "listen to preachers" in many cases.

I think it is more:
1.. Accept that the Bible is true.
2.. Read the Bible to learn that truth.
3.. Glory in the knowledge.
 
God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

We are told by others that God did that. We have not heard it from God. Always those who speak of behalf of their version of God...never God.

Yeah. There's zero connection between God and the Bible. Anybody can write a book and claim it's the perfect and inerrent word of God. Which explains why so many have and a lot of them are mutually exclusive.

Anybody sure that the Bible is the direct word of God is gullible to an extreme degree.
 
God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

We are told by others that God did that. We have not heard it from God. Always those who speak of behalf of their version of God...never God.

Yeah. There's zero connection between God and the Bible. Anybody can write a book and claim it's the perfect and inerrent word of God. Which explains why so many have and a lot of them are mutually exclusive.

Anybody sure that the Bible is the direct word of God is gullible to an extreme degree.

Which is exactly why I made that post in the thread. People can create books, and any human utterance can be a lie.

If you want to look at the one thing humans can't fake, forge, or bend, the one eternal and unerring truth, you have to look at science, physics, and the behavior of the world itself. You don't get that from reading books and believing the words of men, you get that from doing experiments and doubting the words of men to the extent that you test and verify what you've been told.

If there is prayer, it is not begging an imaginary friend for handouts, it is in fact doubting everything you know as vigorously as you know how; if there is meditation with God, it is sitting in contemplation attempting to pull a sensible model for the data out of the chaos of your own human madness.
 
A 2020 analogy.
1. Trump speaks for me. He's defending the kind of America I want to live in.
(Uh, you do know he has children caged -- literally caged -- down on the border? He's pardoned war criminals? He sided with Putin over US intel? He paid hush money to the woman he was banging while Melania was preggers? He says fuck, shit, and son of a bitch in public? He's a covid super-spreader?)
2. The Bible is true. It speaks to me. It is God's message to humans, and it gives us a righteous plan for our lives.
(Uh, you do realize that in the Bible, God commits and orders genocide, over and over; wants the following people executed: brides who can't prove their virginity, sassy sons, and anyone who teaches a new religion; justifies owning slaves and beating them to the point of death; and in the NT, where God supposedly turns into a love deity, his son teaches about a hell of never-ending torment, which most of humanity deserves and will receive?)
 
Wouldn't you expect dialogue that comes from the Creator of the Universe to be clear, concise and completely unambiguous so as to avoid confusion, division or conflict? Yet we have the opposite.

God's word is clear and concise enough for me.

Yet other theists don't agree with your interpretation of bible theology. Jews don't agree with Christians, Christians don't agree amongst themselves, neither agree with Mohammad, while Hinduism is altogether different....

God's Word - clear enough for me and my personal relationship with God. :)

Human theology - :confused:
(Transubstantiation, Infralapsarianism, Supralapsarianism, Soteriology, Triune nature of God, Christology, Original Sin, Once Saved Always Saved, YEC, Scriptura Sola, Should you cover your head or NOT cover your head, Should you call God by name - Jehovah - or never use God's holy name....?)

Yes, there are many many doctrinal and hermeneutic differences in theology, but if you take Islam, Judaism and Christianity and put them side-by-side, they are practically one single religion in comparison to atheism.

I simply don't agree that humans 'ought' to all have the exact same interpretation of scripture or that their failure to do so is God's fault.

BTW - CS Lewis thought that Hinduism was closer to Christianity than Islam.
 
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