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Germany Says ‘Nein’ to Greece Bailout Request

What sort of logic drives you to conclude that's what I was saying? I was addressing the stat you tossed out that Greece government spending is 58% of GDP as if it actually meant anything.

It means precisely what it says: the percent of GDP that is government spending.

58% is a high number. More than half of the economy.

If someone is attempting to argue the problem with Greece's economy is "not enough government spending" then they would need to explain why 58% is not enough when other countries spend far less and manage to have far healthier economies.

Not to mention if Keynesianism deficit spending worked for shit they'd have to be one of the most prosperous countries on earth.

Except Greece wasn't engaging in Keynesian deficit spending. They were engaging in let's let the wealthy loot the country. There's a difference.

Not to Keynes. Maybe you need to go back and read the scripture.

In any case if you think their actual problem is the wealthy are looting all the government spending it sounds like "austerity" is not their problem and more government spending would be about as effective as pissing into a bucket with a big hole in the bottom.
 
http://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8098941/greece-reform-deal

You can read the six page memo for yourself. But the key reforms promised here mostly relate to the tax code and tax administration. Before the financial crisis, Greece was essentially running a European-style level of public spending with an American-style level of tax collection. The area where Greece's new left-wing government and Greece's European partners have the most room for common ground is on trying to raise Greek tax revenue. This is where Syriza's reform promises are most specific and enthusiastic.

Syriza also promises to crack down on several dimensions of corruption, including promises to reduce civil service spending on things other than wages and pensions. For a flavor of what this means, even as the Greek stock exchange boomed on the news of the deal, shares in Greece's number one office furniture company tanked.

Things might start looking up for Greece now.
 
Is it just me, or is there just no way the Greeks are ever going to be able to repay all that debt anyway? Isn't this four month extension just delaying the inevitable default? Or is it just an indirect means to prop up whatever fragile confidence lenders might have in the Greek government?
The extension is not delay to debt repayment, it's an extension to receiving more aid with strings attached. The Greek need the money, but they oppose the conditions that require them to maintain a relatively high budget surplus. The actual repayment hasn't even started yet, and most likely the already-lenient conditions will likely be softened after negotiations anyway, even though Germany and its ilk are playing tough.
 
I think you are operating on some false premises. As far as I can recall there has never been a country that achieved prosperity by incurring massive debts to hand over free stuff to its citizens. Greece government spending as a percent of GDP is about 58%. Very high.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/...-10-en&_csp_=068e923eb1ecbbc65ba8f85d03f6f60d

Denmark, Finland, France, Sweden and Belgium spend more per GDP than Greece does and that doesn't seem to be a problem. So government spending as a percentage of GDP may not be as important as you think it is.

What "free stuff" are you talking about and who is it being handed over to?
The problem was that Greek revenue wasn't proportional to the spending. As you see in this chart, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, France and Belgium are all also near the top, but Greece is far behind.
 
Agreed, and that's one of the main problems Syriza was elected to fix.
 
So according to those who were against the terms of the 2010 bailout, the following would've been true:

The question that comes to my mind reading this is that if pace of the fiscal adjustment had been slower, then the deficits would have had to be higher and that would have implied that Greece would have needed additional loans from somewhere. Of course, Wren-Lewis recognizes this and says that "it would have made sense for some institution like the IMF to provide loans to the government to allow it to eliminate deficits gradually."

But would it?

The IMF was facing immense criticism at the time for its loans to Greece - which were the largest it has ever made. Some members of the IMF argued at the time that its resources should have been used to pay for HIV medication in Africa where thousands were dying rather than a bailout of Greece, where, given the scale of the problems, the money would have almost certainly been lost. Brazil for its part abstained in 2013 when a further loan was proposed. As Peter Spiegel, journalist at the Financial Times, noted in a later article:

"Developing countries have long been uncomfortable about the outsized fund resources being devoted to the eurozone crisis, with Brazil voicing concern that an organisation aimed at helping poorer countries is being used to shore up some of the world’s largest economies."

In the end, the IMF was only able to secure agreement for the Greek bailout to prevent a breakdown of the global financial system resulting from a disorderly Greek default and not to ease the pace of adjustment. So in the absence of a friendly lender it really is hard to say that there was any alternative to what was tabled. And what was tabled was better than nothing.

The IMF has since recognized flaws in its assumptions about the impact of austerity on Greece but that acknowledgement has merely reinforced some of its members' view that no money should have been disbursed at all.

http://brahmanstream.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/greece-simple-maceconomic-guide.html?m=1

So Greece should've been given more money? Or perhaps it shouldn't have been given a bailout at all in 2010, and the money used for something else instead.
 
So Greece should've been given more money? Or perhaps it shouldn't have been given a bailout at all in 2010, and the money used for something else instead.
Not be bailed out before the Long Term Refinancing? I doubt it. They had to "firewall" the debts first.
Can you imagine the mess if the foreign banks actually had to be responsible for the loans they made?
 
So according to those who were against the terms of the 2010 bailout, the following would've been true:

The question that comes to my mind reading this is that if pace of the fiscal adjustment had been slower, then the deficits would have had to be higher and that would have implied that Greece would have needed additional loans from somewhere. Of course, Wren-Lewis recognizes this and says that "it would have made sense for some institution like the IMF to provide loans to the government to allow it to eliminate deficits gradually."

But would it?

The IMF was facing immense criticism at the time for its loans to Greece - which were the largest it has ever made. Some members of the IMF argued at the time that its resources should have been used to pay for HIV medication in Africa where thousands were dying rather than a bailout of Greece, where, given the scale of the problems, the money would have almost certainly been lost. Brazil for its part abstained in 2013 when a further loan was proposed. As Peter Spiegel, journalist at the Financial Times, noted in a later article:

"Developing countries have long been uncomfortable about the outsized fund resources being devoted to the eurozone crisis, with Brazil voicing concern that an organisation aimed at helping poorer countries is being used to shore up some of the world’s largest economies."

In the end, the IMF was only able to secure agreement for the Greek bailout to prevent a breakdown of the global financial system resulting from a disorderly Greek default and not to ease the pace of adjustment. So in the absence of a friendly lender it really is hard to say that there was any alternative to what was tabled. And what was tabled was better than nothing.

The IMF has since recognized flaws in its assumptions about the impact of austerity on Greece but that acknowledgement has merely reinforced some of its members' view that no money should have been disbursed at all.

http://brahmanstream.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/greece-simple-maceconomic-guide.html?m=1

So Greece should've been given more money? Or perhaps it shouldn't have been given a bailout at all in 2010, and the money used for something else instead.

It would have been better to use it to mitigate the effects of a Greek collapse.

- - - Updated - - -

Your Pechtel moronity tolerance is higher than mine.

What's funny is that he thinks Syriza is a person.

So, I mixed up the party with the candidate.
 
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