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Getting sick of Bill Maher's stupidity

I just listened to a realtime overtime episode on youtube that was put up about 4 weeks ago. It was the one after the election with Bernie Sanders. He asks Bernie why we have so few independents in congress. Obviously, the answer is because of our first-past-the-post voting system that punishes you if you vote for anyone other than a Republican or Democrat, but somehow Maher couldn't figure this out. He can recognize that Nader is a spoiler, but can't seem to piece together that a different voting system would drastically mitigate his effect as a spoiler. The stupidity drives me crazy.

The thing that really bugs me is that nobody else seems to be able to make this connection either. This isn't fucking calculus, it is low level arithmetic.

I wouldn't put too much into what Mahler says, he is an entertainer first and foremost.

It is naive to think that either party will give up their jointly held stranglehold on the US's political system.

I personally feel punished when I have to vote for the least worse option. But the main problem that we have right now isn't in the way that we vote, it is that we have a dynamic, complex economy and society that the majority of the electorate has been convinced that we can run with a government from the 1950's or even worse from the 19th century. That government is the only problem. That if we got the government out of the economy and society in general that everything will be better. A position with no support even in theory or that we can see at any time in history. A position supported only by faith. Faith and fantasies. More a religion than a coherent way to govern.

They complain about the ever increasing number of regulations as an example of the smothering effect of the government. But when pressed they can't list any examples of useless regulations written by faceless bureaucrats intent on suppressing growth. There are bad regulations written. It is done by fallible people after all. But the regulations are written to solve real problems, not just to assert the government needlessly into society. And yes, there are regulations that are written to favor one side over another. But this is an argument for more participation in the process of writing of regulations, not to abandon the process completely.

I don't see where we gain much by encouraging third parties, which seems to be the accepted conclusion of the majority here. The third parties mentioned so far are outiers. They don't add much to the conversation. The greens are a single issue party with no real understanding of their single issue. Yes, the biggest problem facing us is climate change. But the only realistic solution is completely off the table for them, nuclear power. We need a low preferably zero carbon solution for the generation of central base power to replace the large base power coal fired plants. This is from a person who has solar panels on their roof. There is nothing on the technical horizon that will allow solar or wind power to reliably provide base power. Nuclear fission is the only off the shelf, available technology to replace coal. Nuclear fusion is the technology in the future that can make the current problems with the current high pressure, uranium fueled reactors go away, the increasing scarcity of fuel, the waste fuel problem and to make the safest method that we have found to generate base power even safer.

The libertarians are living the fantasy. They make the Tea Partiers look levelheaded. There is nothing remotely realistic about their proposed policies. They want to return to the gold standard, the absolutely worse monetary system that we have ever had. They want to get rid of all of the government except for what they must consider to be its only redeeming part, our system of civil litigation, how we sue each other. They propose to replace regulations like building codes with after the fact civil suits. Three years after the fact a judge is going to tell you what you should have done instead of being able to read clear, consistent requirements before you bid the job. And their economics is even more insane and ungrounded in reality than their "all the government has to do is to enforce contracts" through the hyperefficient method of Iöts more civil suits and lots and lots more lawyers.
 
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There is a direct primary. A communist, socialist, libertarian, anarcho syndicalist can just claim to be a R or D and run for office. The two party system functions as a funnel, buffer, and sounding board between voters and law makers. There is no evidence that opening up that funnel = better government.
Why is it so important to have such gatekeepers? Especially only two gatekeepers?

Opening up that funnel would make elections more clearly represent the will of the voters. Why is that supposed to be such a terrible sin?

No, it's just 6 or a half-dozen. You open it up, there is a greater chance they you will get more people you really don't like. If you have a bunch of parties in the legislature they will form a collation that you never voted for.
 
There is a direct primary. A communist, socialist, libertarian, anarcho syndicalist can just claim to be a R or D and run for office. The two party system functions as a funnel, buffer, and sounding board between voters and law makers. There is no evidence that opening up that funnel = better government.

And people like you will make sure we never see that evidence...if they can. If voting were mandatory it would be a different world. There is no evidence of anything that has not been tried and is suppressed by corporate interests. Our government is sold out.

The evidence is 5 seconds away. Look up their voting record (Congress Critters). Not voting, is a vote (The public). Just as is signals apathy it can also signify satisfaction. Yes, people HATE Congress, but they generally like their Representative. You do know that Congress has caucuses that cross party lines right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucuses_of_the_United_States_Congress
 
CA's system is still first-past-the-post (or first-two-past-the-post if you want to be literal). Voting for your favorite can help the two candidates that you really hate make it on the ballot.
True; but unlikely to happen unless your district's electorate is lopsided enough that one of those two is fated to win regardless.

Also, the top two are just the two that happen to survive the vote splitting process and it doesn't even mean they are the best candidates for the district. Even if you really like one of the top two, he could still be unpopular and be a push over for the opposing candidate who may be someone you can't stand.
Hey, not saying the new system is perfect (perfection is provably impossible anyway), just saying it's an improvement over the conventional system.

If the vote splitting is bad enough you might even get two candidates from the same party in the general election. This would be good if the district is dominated by that party and it would have gone for that party anyway. This is absolutely atrocious though if it is a district that is dominated by or leans towards the opposing party. There is still massive incentive to not vote for your conscience.
But we get two candidates from the same party in the general election all the time now, and it's always because the district is dominated by that party. It's good that voters from other parties get an opportunity to vote for the more moderate of the two -- when the choice between the two was made in the primary by their own party's base it too often went the other way.

If approval voting were used in the top two primary, you could vote for your favorite candidate without much worry. ...
I agree that's a better system. There are lots of better systems that can't get adopted. Baby steps...
 
There is this idea that liberals love the Democrats. They really don't. However, the idea of voting third party to siphon votes from the only viable opponent to a Republican who'll support who the fuck knows what is too difficult to swallow to vote a third party.
Yes,  Duverger's law in operation. In Duverger: The Electoral System, he describes it:
The brutal finality of a majority vote on a single ballot forces parties with similar tendencies to regroup their forces at the risk of being overwhelmingly defeated. ... Thus it is that voters tend to abandon the third party in order to concentrate their votes on the two strongest parties. This tendency toward polarization, a psychological phenomenon, strengthens the mechanical factors conducive to a two-party system.
He also discusses how proportional representation is much more friendly to additional parties, and how top-two runoffs are in between.

Jimmy Higgins said:
Third party candidates have a very bad record in the US. In the last decade, a third party candidate is usually just the guy that lost in the Primary. To the best of my knowledge, Ventura was the last high profile third party guy to actually win, and he had a huge amount of mainstream exposure prior to running.
RangeVoting.org - third parties (USA history)
History shows: US third parties all seem to reach their all-time peak within about 1-16 years after founding, then diminish. Once they've fallen to about 5% of what they were at their peak, they die. Their founders perhaps suffer from the delusion that their idea, that new socio-politico-economo-religious-ecological idea that is special to their party, is so wonderful or different that, maybe, just this once, that party will be able to overcome Duverger's law and win, or at least grow into a viable party.
 
Yes,  Duverger's law in operation. In Duverger: The Electoral System, he describes it:
The brutal finality of a majority vote on a single ballot forces parties with similar tendencies to regroup their forces at the risk of being overwhelmingly defeated. ... Thus it is that voters tend to abandon the third party in order to concentrate their votes on the two strongest parties. This tendency toward polarization, a psychological phenomenon, strengthens the mechanical factors conducive to a two-party system.
He also discusses how proportional representation is much more friendly to additional parties, and how top-two runoffs are in between.

Jimmy Higgins said:
Third party candidates have a very bad record in the US. In the last decade, a third party candidate is usually just the guy that lost in the Primary. To the best of my knowledge, Ventura was the last high profile third party guy to actually win, and he had a huge amount of mainstream exposure prior to running.
RangeVoting.org - third parties (USA history)
History shows: US third parties all seem to reach their all-time peak within about 1-16 years after founding, then diminish. Once they've fallen to about 5% of what they were at their peak, they die. Their founders perhaps suffer from the delusion that their idea, that new socio-politico-economo-religious-ecological idea that is special to their party, is so wonderful or different that, maybe, just this once, that party will be able to overcome Duverger's law and win, or at least grow into a viable party.
The problem in the US is that Parties don't grow. It isn't as if the Green Party walks into solidly Democratic areas and run candidates to get three or five elected to the House and then grow with that success, eventually getting a Senate seat, etc... They run someone for President or Governor, with no real intention of actually accomplishing anything. Of course, splitting the left-wing vote could actually send the Republican into office, but maybe even more important, the big money probably doesn't trust left-wing third parties, so they'll just crush them with money.

In Ohio, Ed Fitzgerald just fell off the radar, and the Green Party still couldn't breach 5%. I don't even think I heard anything about the Green Party candidate other than them being present at debates (of which the Republican Governor didn't even bother attending).
 
Yes,  Duverger's law in operation. In Duverger: The Electoral System, he describes it:

He also discusses how proportional representation is much more friendly to additional parties, and how top-two runoffs are in between.

Jimmy Higgins said:
Third party candidates have a very bad record in the US. In the last decade, a third party candidate is usually just the guy that lost in the Primary. To the best of my knowledge, Ventura was the last high profile third party guy to actually win, and he had a huge amount of mainstream exposure prior to running.
RangeVoting.org - third parties (USA history)
History shows: US third parties all seem to reach their all-time peak within about 1-16 years after founding, then diminish. Once they've fallen to about 5% of what they were at their peak, they die. Their founders perhaps suffer from the delusion that their idea, that new socio-politico-economo-religious-ecological idea that is special to their party, is so wonderful or different that, maybe, just this once, that party will be able to overcome Duverger's law and win, or at least grow into a viable party.
The problem in the US is that Parties don't grow. It isn't as if the Green Party walks into solidly Democratic areas and run candidates to get three or five elected to the House and then grow with that success, eventually getting a Senate seat, etc... They run someone for President or Governor, with no real intention of actually accomplishing anything. Of course, splitting the left-wing vote could actually send the Republican into office, but maybe even more important, the big money probably doesn't trust left-wing third parties, so they'll just crush them with money.

In Ohio, Ed Fitzgerald just fell off the radar, and the Green Party still couldn't breach 5%. I don't even think I heard anything about the Green Party candidate other than them being present at debates (of which the Republican Governor didn't even bother attending).

3rd parties are more like interest groups. When their ideas gain public support the Republicans and Dem candidates adopt them. Running a losing campaign can be useful in changing the lines of ideology.
 
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