Greece still doesn't want to behave

[dismal]

Investing in a fixed asset is investing.

That's great. Does this particular form of investing help the Greek economy?

But still, it logically follows that if the only way to unlock prosperity is taxing rich people you'd want to have lots of rich people.

Only as a poor second to a more even distribution of resources in the first place.

Thus with no rich people to tax your economy falls apart.

You're not making any sense. You have to tax people with money. If all the money is concentrated in a few rich people, then you tax them. If the money is spread over more people, then you can spread the tax burden over more people. Most income tax systems manage this automatically.

What's happened in Greece is that the money has gone to rich people via corruption, and to Germany via sharing a common currency, which acts to raise prices in Greece and lower them in Germany. The EU's plan was to use the extra borrowing and fact of EU membership to stimulate growth to make up the difference. Unfortunately it didn't work.

Greece collects more taxes as a percent of GDP than the US, so they must be doing something right.

In any case, their overall tax collections do not seem much out of line with other advanced economies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

My understanding is Greece's tax collection "problem" is rooted in a couple things. First, the government is widely viewed as corrupt and cronyist so sending money to it is wasteful. This is somewhat supported by the fact that roughly 25% of Greek workers are government workers. (And it turns out taxing the income of government workers to raise money for the government is a bit of a circular problem...) Second, Greece has a very low percentage of people who work for large evil corporations and get the Greek equivalent of W-2s. About 25% are self employed proprietors. These people are not necessarily "rich" as they may be shop owners or rent out a few rooms or run a gyro stand, but they are notoriously difficult to tax.

 

[untermensche]

We aren't saying that the key to prosperity is to tax the rich. That is your idea that you are trying to impose.

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

 

[dismal]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

 

[untermensche]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's great. Does this particular form of investing help the Greek economy?

But still, it logically follows that if the only way to unlock prosperity is taxing rich people you'd want to have lots of rich people.

Only as a poor second to a more even distribution of resources in the first place.

Thus with no rich people to tax your economy falls apart.

You're not making any sense. You have to tax people with money. If all the money is concentrated in a few rich people, then you tax them. If the money is spread over more people, then you can spread the tax burden over more people. Most income tax systems manage this automatically.

What's happened in Greece is that the money has gone to rich people via corruption, and to Germany via sharing a common currency, which acts to raise prices in Greece and lower them in Germany. The EU's plan was to use the extra borrowing and fact of EU membership to stimulate growth to make up the difference. Unfortunately it didn't work.

Once you have attained that liberal utopia with the assets redistributed who are you going to tax to fund it?

Who the fuck was talking about complete redistribution of all assets? Togo was talking about simply having progressive taxation. Only a lunatic would equate this with the total redistribution of all assets so that everyone has the same.

You are aware, I presume, that it is possible for a little of something to be better than none, while a lot is not better still?

If not, then I suggest that, as a little salt in your food is essential to life, you should be trying to subsist on a diet of nothing else.

Or perhaps we should ask you, when you attain that capitalist utopia where one person finally has all of the money, with whom is he going to trade?

"If that money is spread over more people".

That means taking it from the rich.

 

[ksen]

so what?

 

[dismal]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

Right, and the best way to raise the water level in a pool is to throw buckets of water into the shallow end that you filled up in the deep end.

 

[ronburgundy]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

 

[ksen]

Right, and the best way to raise the water level in a pool is to throw buckets of water into the shallow end that you filled up in the deep end.

great dismalism!

 

[dismal]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

 

[ronburgundy]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

See Logic

 

[dismal]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

See Logic

We're not talking about logic here, we're talking about Keynes.

If I claimed he advocated burying bottles of money in the ground for people to dig up, for example, I could back that with a quote where he advocated it.

Now, let's see you do that.

 

[ronburgundy]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

See Logic

We're not talking about logic here, we're talking about Keynes.

If I claimed he advocated burying bottles of money in the ground for people to dig up, for example, I could back that with a quote where he advocated it.

Now, let's see you do that.

Everything I said follows logically from demand being the engine of economic growth. So, the only question is whether Keynes thought that demand was the engine of economic growth.
I didn't think even you would pretend that this is disputable, but here your go:

[P]

Keynesian economics (/ˈkeɪnziən/ kayn-zee-ən; or Keynesianism) is the view that in the short run, especially during recessions, economic output is strongly influenced by aggregate demand (total spending in the economy).

[/P]

 

[dismal]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

See Logic

We're not talking about logic here, we're talking about Keynes.

If I claimed he advocated burying bottles of money in the ground for people to dig up, for example, I could back that with a quote where he advocated it.

Now, let's see you do that.

Everything I said follows logically from demand being the engine of economic growth. So, the only question is whether Keynes thought that demand was the engine of economic growth.
I didn't think even you would pretend that this is disputable, but here your go:

[P]

Keynesian economics (/ˈkeɪnziən/ kayn-zee-ən; or Keynesianism) is the view that in the short run, especially during recessions, economic output is strongly influenced by aggregate demand (total spending in the economy).

[/P]

Wow.

Fail.

 

[ronburgundy]

I quote:

The problem in Greece is the same problem that has destroyed economies through history.

They couldn't get the rich to pay their taxes.

Not a problem. The Problem.

You do understand these are NEEDED measures to stimulate a collapsed economy? Not optional.

Money has to flow in some way.

The corrupted system has broken down again as all top down systems will break down when those at the top are allowed to gain more and more power. And wealth is power. To not understand that is to not understand the world.

Taxing is the way to stimulate an economy?

Lord Keynes is rolling over in his grave.

It is how you get some of the money to do the Keynesian spending.

It is most definitely a crucial part of his plan to restore a collapsed economy.

^^THIS^^^

Taxing the rich, especially in the context of gross wealth inequality and when a huge % have less $ then they would immediately spend, will increase demand and consumer spending, which Keynes accurately understood was far more important to economic growth than giving the rich more money to buy expensive wines and paintings with.
Wealth redistribution via taxation is highly compatible with Keynes core principles.

Cite?

See Logic

We're not talking about logic here, we're talking about Keynes.

If I claimed he advocated burying bottles of money in the ground for people to dig up, for example, I could back that with a quote where he advocated it.

Now, let's see you do that.

Everything I said follows logically from demand being the engine of economic growth. So, the only question is whether Keynes thought that demand was the engine of economic growth.
I didn't think even you would pretend that this is disputable, but here your go:

[P]

Keynesian economics (/ˈkeɪnziən/ kayn-zee-ən; or Keynesianism) is the view that in the short run, especially during recessions, economic output is strongly influenced by aggregate demand (total spending in the economy).

[/P]

Wow.

Fail.

I see your argumentation skills are unchanged.

 

[dismal]

I see your argumentation skills are unchanged.

You made a claim. I asked you to produce evidence. You failed.

This is not an argument anymore.

 

[ksen]

>implying you were actually trying to argue anything

kek

 

[dismal]

>implying you were actually trying to argue anything

kek

I was arguing that Keynes did not say taxing rich people was good for the economy. Burying jars full of money in the ground, yes. Taxing rich people, no.

 

[ksen]

No?

Can you show me where Keynes addressed taxing rich people? I mean he might have, I don't know.

 

[dismal]

No?

Can you show me where Keynes addressed taxing rich people? I mean he might have, I don't know.

If he never addressed it, it seems safe to say doing it was not a central part of his theory.