Hamas' policy on negotation, in their own words:

[Jayjay]

1) Iran didn't invade the U.S. and
2) Even if you could claim convincingly that the sacking of the U.S. embassy counts (it doesn't), Saddam Hussein was the President of IRAQ, not the United States.


Then the Palestinian right of resistance would be a moot point in the event of peace. When they reach an agreement, there is nothing more to resist.

2) You're forgetting that they consider all of Israel to be occupied.

You're forgetting that they have already acknowledged the 1967 borders as the legitimate borders of the State of Palestine. It is Israel, NOT Hamas, that refuses to recognize those borders.

I don't think Hamas has made any such acknowledgement.

2008: Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders

2008: Hamas ready to accept 1967 borders

2011: Hamas accepts 1967 borders, but will never recognize Israel, top official says

2011: Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 Borders

2012: Mashaal: I accept a Palestinian state on '67 borders

2013: Ghazi Hamad: Hamas Agrees to Accept State Within '67 Borders

Hamas has been VERY explicit about this fact every time it has been negotiated. They are willing to accept a two-state solution along the 1967 borders with a permanent peace in place.

I stand corrected. But of course, you have to see the qualifications that Hamas puts in place as well: no recognition of Israel, and no permanent peace (only a "hudna" i.e. a temporary truce). The sources above are very clear that Hamas explicity rejects a two-state solution.

They accept, in practice, a two-state solution. The reason they don't call it a TWO state solution is because Palestine is the only state they will recognize in the region. They don't consider the Israeli government to be legitimate, which really just means they will have no formal diplomatic relations with them.

For the record, lack of recognition has never IN AND OF ITSELF actually been an obstacle to peace. The U.S. refused to recognize China for something like 40 years after Mao's uprising; they STILL don't recognize Iran.

What Hamas is basically stating is that they are willing to accept a permanent resolution to the conflict along the 1967 borders, which at this point is a bit like Mexico giving up its claims on Texas. Agreeing to accept sovereignty WITHIN that border is tantamount to surrendering any land claims outside of it. They could, conceivably, attempt to annex Israel through a stealth campaign of terrorism and/or demographic transplantation (subtle migration and/or intermarriage) but that would bear little if any resemblance to the conflict as it exists now, and in any case isn't something that could realistically plan for until LONG after they've established a coherent state of their own.

That's a fair point, but clearly what you said before that Hamas EXPLICITLY accepts two-state solution and permanent peace is incorrect. On the contrary, they explicitly deny both when asked about it. What you are arguing is that accepting 1967 borders implicitly means peace and a two-state solution, or that when and if we ever get there it's indistinguishable from a two-state solution, and I don't entirely disagree, but the fact remains that right now, Hamas has not accepted a two-state solution nor a permanent peace even in exchange for 1967 borders.

In truth Hamas's position seems to be that until they have 1967 borders, they refuse to recognize Palestinian statehood and any loyalty to Palestinian state institutions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

....As for Iraq--we aren't the ones who broke it. We left the door unlocked, places like Iran came in and broke it...

We invaded, destroyed the military, disbanded all the civil services, destroyed infrastructure like buildings, roads, electricity and clean water, killed tens of thousands of innocents, wounded tens of thousands more, terrorized millions for a long period of time, not one day like 911, caused millions to flee the nation, rounded up civilians and began widespread random torture, allowed terrorist organizations into the country that were being kept out, unleashed sectarian violence that had no existence in Iraq until the invasion, strengthened the most radical elements and weakened the most moderate, created the conditions that gave ISIS experienced military leadership, left weapons for ISIS to take.

Destruction of a society and ten years of occupation. The tools that have allowed ISIS to wreak havoc.

If one can't see that the US broke the place there is little hope they will see anything real in the world.

You continue to be unable to tell the difference between the results of our actions and the results of the actions of the competing Islamic powers, especially Iran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What Hamas is basically stating is that they are willing to accept a permanent resolution to the conflict along the 1967 borders, which at this point is a bit like Mexico giving up its claims on Texas. Agreeing to accept sovereignty WITHIN that border is tantamount to surrendering any land claims outside of it. They could, conceivably, attempt to annex Israel through a stealth campaign of terrorism and/or demographic transplantation (subtle migration and/or intermarriage) but that would bear little if any resemblance to the conflict as it exists now, and in any case isn't something that could realistically plan for until LONG after they've established a coherent state of their own.

Hamas has never said this. They have said they would accept a temporary truce in exchange for the 67 borders--and with the specific provision that they would not stop others from attacking Israel from their territory but would consider Israeli retaliation against those others as breaking the peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still need to prove that they are expanding.

How does that need to be proven? Even the ISRAELIS think they're expanding.

Netanyahu actually got reelected partially by promising to continue that expansion.

It's not even debatable. They are expanding.

The "separation wall" is not the legitimate border of Israel and it's highly unlikely it ever will be. Even if it was, most of those settlements are OUTSIDE the wall, and well outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders. When those settlements increase in population, increase in size, increase in infrastructure, or ALL OF THE ABOVE, that is by definition Israeli expansion outside of its borders.

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

 

[untermensche]

We invaded, destroyed the military, disbanded all the civil services, destroyed infrastructure like buildings, roads, electricity and clean water, killed tens of thousands of innocents, wounded tens of thousands more, terrorized millions for a long period of time, not one day like 911, caused millions to flee the nation, rounded up civilians and began widespread random torture, allowed terrorist organizations into the country that were being kept out, unleashed sectarian violence that had no existence in Iraq until the invasion, strengthened the most radical elements and weakened the most moderate, created the conditions that gave ISIS experienced military leadership, left weapons for ISIS to take.

Destruction of a society and ten years of occupation. The tools that have allowed ISIS to wreak havoc.

If one can't see that the US broke the place there is little hope they will see anything real in the world.

You continue to be unable to tell the difference between the results of our actions and the results of the actions of the competing Islamic powers, especially Iran.

Iran of course has interests ON ITS BORDER.

But even if I accept your premise that the evil Iran has its tentacles in Iraq and is causing all the trouble, because a violent invasion and decade long occupation was nothing, it is only because the US broke the place that Iran has influence.

 

[Arctish]

How does that need to be proven? Even the ISRAELIS think they're expanding.

Netanyahu actually got reelected partially by promising to continue that expansion.

It's not even debatable. They are expanding.

The "separation wall" is not the legitimate border of Israel and it's highly unlikely it ever will be. Even if it was, most of those settlements are OUTSIDE the wall, and well outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders. When those settlements increase in population, increase in size, increase in infrastructure, or ALL OF THE ABOVE, that is by definition Israeli expansion outside of its borders.

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

#1 is illegal settlement building on stolen land. The walls around the settlements do move, and the ring of destruction around them does expand as more Israeli Jews build houses, widen roads, add infrastructure to serve the increasing population, seize more communal walls and water from Palestinian villages, etc..

#2 is stealing land for more illegal settlement building. You have seen irrefutable evidence of it occurring every year since you started claiming it wasn't back on IIDB more than 10 years ago. Most recently you have seen the seizure of Palestinian farmland in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian homes in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You know it happened; you argued in favor of it.

 

[Jayjay]

How does that need to be proven? Even the ISRAELIS think they're expanding.

Netanyahu actually got reelected partially by promising to continue that expansion.

It's not even debatable. They are expanding.

The "separation wall" is not the legitimate border of Israel and it's highly unlikely it ever will be. Even if it was, most of those settlements are OUTSIDE the wall, and well outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders. When those settlements increase in population, increase in size, increase in infrastructure, or ALL OF THE ABOVE, that is by definition Israeli expansion outside of its borders.

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

Even then, there is expansion. The method to do so is legalizing illegal outposts and redesignating them as "neighborhoods" of existing settlements, which in practise moves the de jure border. A few examples:

IDF signs injunction legalizing Bruchin outpost

OC Central Command Maj.-Gen. Nitzan Alon on Sunday signed an order transforming the Bruchin outpost into a legal settlement under the auspices of the Samaria Regional Council.

Alon’s signature on the document was technical matter. It implemented a March decision reached by a small panel of cabinet ministers to change the status of three outposts – Bruchin, Rehelim and Sansana – to authorized settlements.

The Government Secretly Approved another Outpost: Nofei Nehemia

Following the Government decision of April 2012, to retroactively legalize three outposts (Rehelim, Sansana and Bruchin) and to declare them as a new settlements, the Commander of the Central Command issued a few days ago a military order officially establishing the boundaries of Rehelim. According to reports, although the Government decision did not mention the Nofei Nehemia outpost, it turned out that the boundaries of the new settlement of Rehelim includes the outpost of Nofei Nehemia which is located nearly 2 km west of Rehelim, as a “neighborhood” of Rehelim.

This authorization marks the government’s 10th authorization of illegal outposts, being the only government to ever authorize outposts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You continue to be unable to tell the difference between the results of our actions and the results of the actions of the competing Islamic powers, especially Iran.

Iran of course has interests ON ITS BORDER.

But even if I accept your premise that the evil Iran has its tentacles in Iraq and is causing all the trouble, because a violent invasion and decade long occupation was nothing, it is only because the US broke the place that Iran has influence.

You mention it's border--what's on it's border? Iraq.

Most of the post-overthrow violence in Iraq was due to Iran, not the US.

And I suppose the thief is blameless if you didn't lock your door?

- - - Updated - - -

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

#1 is illegal settlement building on stolen land. The walls around the settlements do move, and the ring of destruction around them does expand as more Israeli Jews build houses, widen roads, add infrastructure to serve the increasing population, seize more communal walls and water from Palestinian villages, etc..

#2 is stealing land for more illegal settlement building. You have seen irrefutable evidence of it occurring every year since you started claiming it wasn't back on IIDB more than 10 years ago. Most recently you have seen the seizure of Palestinian farmland in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian homes in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You know it happened; you argued in favor of it.

I have not seen the proof you claim exists for #2. You continue to present evidence of #1 and claim it's evidence of #2.

 

[Arctish]

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

#1 is illegal settlement building on stolen land. The walls around the settlements do move, and the ring of destruction around them does expand as more Israeli Jews build houses, widen roads, add infrastructure to serve the increasing population, seize more communal walls and water from Palestinian villages, etc..

#2 is stealing land for more illegal settlement building. You have seen irrefutable evidence of it occurring every year since you started claiming it wasn't back on IIDB more than 10 years ago. Most recently you have seen the seizure of Palestinian farmland in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian homes in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You know it happened; you argued in favor of it.

I have not seen the proof you claim exists for #2. You continue to present evidence of #1 and claim it's evidence of #2.

Yes you have. It hasn't even been a year since a really big land grab was announced.

You defended it, of course. You started out by peddling the same bullshit the Israeli economics minister, Naftali Bennett, was selling about it being a response to the kidnappings. When it was shown beyond all possible doubt that the notice of the decision to seize the land had been issued months before the students were kidnapped, you reverted to some of your old stand-by apologetics such as "they're only taking land they know they're going to get under a peace deal, so it isn't really stealing".

Also, in case you didn't know, last month the government of Israel approved more settlement building in East Jerusalem. They're not just "fiilling in", and they're not just building up. They are expanding.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

#1 is illegal settlement building on stolen land. The walls around the settlements do move, and the ring of destruction around them does expand as more Israeli Jews build houses, widen roads, add infrastructure to serve the increasing population, seize more communal walls and water from Palestinian villages, etc..

#2 is stealing land for more illegal settlement building. You have seen irrefutable evidence of it occurring every year since you started claiming it wasn't back on IIDB more than 10 years ago. Most recently you have seen the seizure of Palestinian farmland in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian homes in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You know it happened; you argued in favor of it.

I have not seen the proof you claim exists for #2. You continue to present evidence of #1 and claim it's evidence of #2.

Yes you have. It hasn't even been a year since a really big land grab was announced.

You defended it, of course. You started out by peddling the same bullshit the Israeli economics minister, Naftali Bennett, was selling about it being a response to the kidnappings. When it was shown beyond all possible doubt that the notice of the decision to seize the land had been issued months before the students were kidnapped, you reverted to some of your old stand-by apologetics such as "they're only taking land they know they're going to get under a peace deal, so it isn't really stealing".

Also, in case you didn't know, last month the government of Israel approved more settlement building in East Jerusalem. They're not just "fiilling in", and they're not just building up. They are expanding.

1) The area in question is behind the wall. Thus this is an example of #1, not #2.

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

 

[laughing dog]

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

There are entire former villages and farmland that were inhabited by Arabs and have subsequently been cleansed of them by settlers and the gov't of Israel with your approval. It is not acceptable to cleanse any area of its current inhabitants, regardless who the cleansers or cleansees are. Really, is there anything that the gov't of Israel does for which you will not provide a kneejerk defense?

 

[arkirk]

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

There are entire former villages and farmland that were inhabited by Arabs and have subsequently been cleansed of them by settlers and the gov't of Israel with your approval. It is not acceptable to cleanse any area of its current inhabitants, regardless who the cleansers or cleansees are. Really, is there anything that the gov't of Israel does for which you will not provide a kneejerk defense?

I have never seen Loren disapprove of anything the Israel govt. does. Not a single thing. The Arabs are always wrong. They are the only people who hate. Jews just obey god...?????

 

[Arctish]

There are two different issues here:

1) Additional construction within West Bank communities.

2) Expanding the borders.

#1 is normally reported as "expansion" even though the borders do not move and the Palestinians lose no territory. I only count #2 as expansion--and where's the evidence of this occurring?

#1 is illegal settlement building on stolen land. The walls around the settlements do move, and the ring of destruction around them does expand as more Israeli Jews build houses, widen roads, add infrastructure to serve the increasing population, seize more communal walls and water from Palestinian villages, etc..

#2 is stealing land for more illegal settlement building. You have seen irrefutable evidence of it occurring every year since you started claiming it wasn't back on IIDB more than 10 years ago. Most recently you have seen the seizure of Palestinian farmland in the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian homes in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You know it happened; you argued in favor of it.

I have not seen the proof you claim exists for #2. You continue to present evidence of #1 and claim it's evidence of #2.

Yes you have. It hasn't even been a year since a really big land grab was announced.

You defended it, of course. You started out by peddling the same bullshit the Israeli economics minister, Naftali Bennett, was selling about it being a response to the kidnappings. When it was shown beyond all possible doubt that the notice of the decision to seize the land had been issued months before the students were kidnapped, you reverted to some of your old stand-by apologetics such as "they're only taking land they know they're going to get under a peace deal, so it isn't really stealing".

Also, in case you didn't know, last month the government of Israel approved more settlement building in East Jerusalem. They're not just "fiilling in", and they're not just building up. They are expanding.

1) The area in question is behind the wall. Thus this is an example of #1, not #2.

1a) Behind which wall? Show us the maps.

1b) It was Palestinian land seized by Israel for the purpose of expanding Zionist settlements. You are wrong about Israel no longer taking Palestinian land. You are wrong about the settlements no longer increasing in size and number. You have been wrong on this point for years.

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

2a) The reality is you are claiming something for which you have presented no evidence at all, does not support your claims about Israel no longer seizing land from Palestinians and settlements no longer expanding, and appears to be an attempt to change the subject.

2b) You and angelo are the only ones here claiming ethnic cleansing and theft are acceptable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

There are entire former villages and farmland that were inhabited by Arabs and have subsequently been cleansed of them by settlers and the gov't of Israel with your approval. It is not acceptable to cleanse any area of its current inhabitants, regardless who the cleansers or cleansees are. Really, is there anything that the gov't of Israel does for which you will not provide a kneejerk defense?

"Cleanse" != "Massacre".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1a) Behind which wall? Show us the maps.

While it's not marked on this page the wall is the red line.

1b) It was Palestinian land seized by Israel for the purpose of expanding Zionist settlements. You are wrong about Israel no longer taking Palestinian land. You are wrong about the settlements no longer increasing in size and number. You have been wrong on this point for years.

What I have been saying all along is that the border isn't moving. I don't give a hoot about the number of people living there, the Palestinians lose nothing by the population density going up.

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

2a) The reality is you are claiming something for which you have presented no evidence at all, does not support your claims about Israel no longer seizing land from Palestinians and settlements no longer expanding, and appears to be an attempt to change the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion

The Jews don't go around rehashing old events from the rooftops so the bad things that happen to them aren't widely known, you have to look. (I wasn't aware of this massacre until I went looking to figure out where the place was. I found about the massacre much easier than I found the location.)

The point is that they aren't seizing Palestinian land, they are reclaiming Jewish land. That seems very relevant to me.

2b) You and angelo are the only ones here claiming ethnic cleansing and theft are acceptable.

No. I don't like the land theft of 1948 but it cuts both ways--and more Jews were expelled than Palestinians. Since then we have very little evidence of actual theft of occupied Palestinian land.

 

[Arctish]

While it's not marked on this page the wall is the red line.

I don't know what that red line indicates but it's not the Separation Wall. Perhaps it's the wall around the settlement. The Separation Wall is the solid black line on this map. The proposed extension of the wall (with the obvious planned land grab it would accomplish) is the black dotted line.

1b) It was Palestinian land seized by Israel for the purpose of expanding Zionist settlements. You are wrong about Israel no longer taking Palestinian land. You are wrong about the settlements no longer increasing in size and number. You have been wrong on this point for years.

What I have been saying all along is that the border isn't moving. I don't give a hoot about the number of people living there, the Palestinians lose nothing by the population density going up.

That is not what you have been saying all along, and even if it was it's still nonsense. The borders around settlements are moving outward, Palestinian land continues to be stolen and handed over to Zionist settlers, and the assertion that people losing their farmland and being forced into ever-shrinking reservations "lose nothing by the population density going up" is bullshit.

2) The reality is that this was a Jewish area where many of the occupants were massacred in the 1948 war and it was seized and cleansed by the Arabs. Why is that acceptable but Israel reclaiming it isn't?

2a) The reality is you are claiming something for which you have presented no evidence at all, does not support your claims about Israel no longer seizing land from Palestinians and settlements no longer expanding, and appears to be an attempt to change the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion

You've got the wrong settlement.

The stolen land is right by Gvaot (also spelled Gevaot). Israel has declared it to be in the "neighborhood" of the Gush Etzion settlements so it can pretend this is just the natural growth of an established settlement. In reality, Gvaot is several miles away from that cluster of settlements built in 1967 where the Zionist outpost destroyed in 1948 was located, and it is not recognized as a legitimate settlement by Israel. But that doesn't stop Israel from helping it grow and expand, which the community leaders clearly intend to do. The Times of Israel quoted them crowing about it when the land grab was officially announced:

The Etzion settlements council welcomed Sunday’s announcement, and said it was the prelude to expansion of the current Gvaot settlement.

It “paves the way for the new city of Gvaot,” a statement said.

So I have to ask you Loren. Do you now acknowledge that Israel continues to take land from Palestinians in the West Bank? Do you admit the settlements are expanding, as in occupying more land, not just "filling in" or adding units within an established perimeter?

The Jews don't go around rehashing old events from the rooftops so the bad things that happen to them aren't widely known, you have to look. (I wasn't aware of this massacre until I went looking to figure out where the place was. I found about the massacre much easier than I found the location.)

The point is that they aren't seizing Palestinian land, they are reclaiming Jewish land. That seems very relevant to me.

It wasn't Jewish land. It was Palestinian farmland near an illegal settlement built in the 1980s on stolen Palestinian land. The seizure was an act of blatant theft that had nothing to do with restoring lost property to Jews.

Also, that parcel isn't the only one Israel has seized in the past year. It just happened to be the biggest in years, which is why it was discussed here.

2b) You and angelo are the only ones here claiming ethnic cleansing and theft are acceptable.

No. I don't like the land theft of 1948 but it cuts both ways--and more Jews were expelled than Palestinians.

More Jews expelled from where? The area around Gush Etzion? There weren't very many to begin with, and their outpost was surrounded by Palestinian villages. And you are comparing their numbers to what? The number of Palestinians forced off their farms in the Gush Etzion "neighborhood"? Do you have any idea how many people you're talking about, or are you just bullshitting about which group is larger?

Since then we have very little evidence of actual theft of occupied Palestinian land.

So now your claim is that you've seen very little actual evidence of the constant blatant theft of land in the West Bank despite defending it at every turn. You know about the Separation Wall cutting across Palestinian fields and through Palestinian neighborhoods, you know about the fairly large land grab that happened last year, you know about Israelis seizing Palestinian houses and handing them over to Jews, or seizing land to widen an illegally built road leading to an illegally built settlement, or grabbing Palestinian farmland to add garden space to Jewish settlements. But if past posts are any indication of future behavior, in about 6 months you will go right back to claiming to have never seen any evidence at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what that red line indicates but it's not the Separation Wall. Perhaps it's the wall around the settlement. The Separation Wall is the solid black line on this map. The proposed extension of the wall (with the obvious planned land grab it would accomplish) is the black dotted line.

The area was described as being between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Note that the wall in that area borders Bethlehem, anything between the two must be within the wall.

What I have been saying all along is that the border isn't moving. I don't give a hoot about the number of people living there, the Palestinians lose nothing by the population density going up.

That is not what you have been saying all along, and even if it was it's still nonsense. The borders around settlements are moving outward, Palestinian land continues to be stolen and handed over to Zionist settlers, and the assertion that people losing their farmland and being forced into ever-shrinking reservations "lose nothing by the population density going up" is bullshit.

It is what I've been saying.

Are they rebuilding the wall repeatedly? I don't think so!

Or are there settlements being built outside the wall? Got evidence of this?

The problem here is that the press routinely reports anything being built behind the wall as "expansion". Also, I have seen reports describing "settlement building" that was inside Israel proper. Be very wary of the reporting of any news organization that wants its reporters to be able to operate in Palestinian areas.

You've got the wrong settlement.

It's what you linked to.

 

[Frikki]

There are entire former villages and farmland that were inhabited by Arabs and have subsequently been cleansed of them by settlers and the gov't of Israel with your approval. It is not acceptable to cleanse any area of its current inhabitants, regardless who the cleansers or cleansees are. Really, is there anything that the gov't of Israel does for which you will not provide a kneejerk defense?

"Cleanse" != "Massacre".

Libertarian that is against property rights.

 

[Arctish]

The area was described as being between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Note that the wall in that area borders Bethlehem, anything between the two must be within the wall.

What I have been saying all along is that the border isn't moving. I don't give a hoot about the number of people living there, the Palestinians lose nothing by the population density going up.

That is not what you have been saying all along, and even if it was it's still nonsense. The borders around settlements are moving outward, Palestinian land continues to be stolen and handed over to Zionist settlers, and the assertion that people losing their farmland and being forced into ever-shrinking reservations "lose nothing by the population density going up" is bullshit.

It is what I've been saying.

Are they rebuilding the wall repeatedly? I don't think so!

Or are there settlements being built outside the wall? Got evidence of this?

Ye gods, Loren, you're shown clear, unmistakable evidence of settlements being built outside of existing walls which are themselves 1) built on stolen land, 2) still being built, and 3) subject to rerouting. You're shown quotes gathered by reputable news organizations in which Zionists state their firm intention to continue building on stolen Palestinian land, Israelis openly declare that they are seizing Palestinian land so that a tiny settlement can become a city, and Netanyahu approving more and more settlement building despite the political cost internationally. You are shown countless incidents in which Palestinians have lost their land, or homes, or wells as nearby Zionist settlements continue to expand outward, and you are still completely ignorant of the fact the settlements keep expanding? Despite the fact you unfailingly support and defend the expansion?

The problem here is that the press routinely reports anything being built behind the wall as "expansion". Also, I have seen reports describing "settlement building" that was inside Israel proper. Be very wary of the reporting of any news organization that wants its reporters to be able to operate in Palestinian areas.

Ah, so this is how you do it. You don't check out reports of expansion, you just assume the word is being used to describe settlements gaining population, and you never feel the need to understand where housing for the new population is being built, or how long ago the land that's being built on was stolen. And you are wary of reports coming from people who might actually know what they're talking about. You only trust reports from people who didn't go see for themselves.

You've got the wrong settlement.

It's what you linked to.

The Guardian article I linked to clearly states in the subheadline that the land is at Gvaot.

"British foreign secretary urges Israel to reverse decision to seize 990 acres of Palestinian land near Gvaot to create new city". It also states "The settlement affects nearly 400 hectares (1,000 acres) at Gvaot near Bethlehem, which have been designated as state land, as opposed to land privately owned by Palestinians, clearing the way for the potential Israeli building" in the man body of the article.

The article also reports:

According to a report released by the PLO's negotiations affairs department: "The illegal settlement of Gvaot was established in 1984 as a military base. It was later transferred to a Yeshiva (Jewish religious school) and currently is inhabited by 16 families. The recent Israeli confiscation would allow for the illegal settlements to grow to the size of a city. It aims at linking the illegal settlement with the green line, grabbing more Palestinian land so as to facilitate future annexation."

Settlers and their supporters in the Israeli government have long sought to build on the land around Gvaot, currently the site of a small settlement. They claim there is an Israeli consensus that in any future peace deal, the settlements around Gush Etzion would be annexed to Israel.

That position is rejected by Palestinians and many in the international community, including the US. "We have long made clear our opposition to continued settlement activity," the US official told Reuters on Sunday night.

You can find it on the map I posted south of Beitar Illit, which is southwest of Jerusalem and west of Bethlehem. It is outside of the Separation Wall which, as you know, is built on Palestinian land and does not mark the border of Israel.

 

[laughing dog]

Discussing Israel with people like LP is like discussing evolution with YECers: both are ideologically unable to accept facts and reality.