Happy Juneteenth one and all!

[thebeave]

And on to a different subject concerning Juneteenth:

https://www.tmz.com/2021/06/24/georgia-naacp-does-not-accept-ikea-apology/

Not sure what to make of this. Was it intentional? Or was the menu developed by someone (probably a youngster), who just didn't know?

 

[Gospel]

I dunno man, that menu looks pretty damn good to me.

 

[thebeave]

I dunno man, that menu looks pretty damn good to me.

Me too! Its a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? In the effort to eliminate racial stereotypes, don't we sometimes deny pleasure to those who we are desperately trying not to offend? I'm trying to imagine what Juneteenth celebrations are going to look like going forward. When a city decides to have a Juneteenth picnic in the park, will the city menu planners purposely avoid all the menu items that have a black racial stereotype to them? So, it will just be white people picnic food, like hamburgers and hot dogs and La Croix soda water? Maybe throw in some Chow Mein and some burritos, but god forbid we have collard greens, or chicken or grape Kool Aid on the menu.

 

[TomC]

I dunno man, that menu looks pretty damn good to me.

The local branch of NAACP holds a Juneteenth picnic event at a local park. I've missed the last couple of years, but I'm certain that every one of those items was on the pitch in table last time I was there.

Being upset that IKEA sounds like pretty blatant racism. I'd suggest that IKEA ignore Juneteenth going forward so as not to upset anybody further.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why just fried chicken? When you RSVP for a wedding do you get a selection of meat? When it's a wedding of two black people do you imagine the RSVP card has two selections for meats: 1. Fried Chicken or 2. Fried Chicken? Anyway, I'm ignorant of Juneteenth foods and just started reading. One thing is that Juneteenth meats are traditionally barbecued or grilled. Red is a common theme for color. Red velvet cake is a current trend. Some other reds: red soda, strawberries, hot sauce. But like I said, I'm ignorant and only just reading this now.

One other thing I am trying to keep in mind as someone with a genealogist background is that many Black Americans don't have known links to their distant ancestral past. They likely do not know ethnicities and nationalities of their non-immediate ancestors. The carry-over of cultural phenomena is often pan-African, stories of why the foods or trends are present may be missing, and there is no expectation of anything to be a trend or monolithic. So, some families may very well eat fried chicken on Juneteenth or not even celebrate Juneteenth. Some people might not even care about tradition. It's not like I would know anything about that experience....so making assumptions is probably a bad idea.

Okay, now that that is out of the way, ... I think the bigger problem may have been the verbiage preceding the food listing within the document as well as the messaging in totality, not the food choices only. I am saying that because the NAACP President used the word "performative."

It's like "acting" a super nice position instead of doing something substantial. I think that's what he meant.

It's like this: "Well, that sucks. You have persevered, though. Here. Have some food. I checked with Bob. He's black. He said fried chicken will work. Also, you guys are GOING TO DO GREAT THINGS IN THE FUTURE. HURRAY FOR YOU!!! And I made this video list for you to watch while you are eating. Bob nodded when I asked if you would love them. One of them is this movie of a back guy who saves us all from aliens. It's called Independence Day."

I am being a little dramatic to demonstrate the point but what could IKEA do differently?

They could let the employees take the lead in defining the holiday, including letting them delegate management to take care of tasks. There would be no assumptions or surprises if the Black employees having the lunch are directing the effort.

They could do something more substantial. Possibly. To be open, I have an impression of IKEA that they probably already get involved, but this is an impression largely from ignorance. I've only been to the New Haven IKEA, but I've been there a number of times over some years. Their employees are extremely professional there and seem happy. So I assume they are treated well. I intuitively detect pretty much the opposite situation when I go to Walmart. So...if IKEA isn't doing anything substantial for the community in which they are located, they should.

 

[TomC]

To me, making Juneteenth a federal thing is such a no-brainer I didn't read many of the early posts in this thread very closely.

But I must agree with Mr Roy here.

“I could not vote for this bill, however, because the holiday should not be called ‘Juneteenth National Independence Day’ but rather, ‘Juneteenth National Emancipation [or Freedom or otherwise] Day,’ Rep. Chip Roy of Texas said in a statement. “This name needlessly divides our nation on a matter that should instead bring us together by creating a separate Independence Day based on the color of one’s skin.

Calling it National Independence Day seems deliberately divisive. It's not only inaccurate, it's cultural appropriation.

It's not accurate to describe newly freed slaves as independent. They were still, overwhelmingly, poor and illiterate and unsophisticated. They were subjected to ugly discrimination nearly everywhere and easy marks for unscrupulous operators of every variety.

There is already a National Independence Day, hypocritical as it is to call it that. July 4, 1776, was definitely only a Declaration of Independence for wealthy WASP males. But still, it's an iconic piece of Americana. Appropriating the word for another holiday, when it isn't accurate, looks like an attempt to foster ill will and division.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

To me, making Juneteenth a federal thing is such a no-brainer I didn't read many of the early posts in this thread very closely.

But I must agree with Mr Roy here.

“I could not vote for this bill, however, because the holiday should not be called ‘Juneteenth National Independence Day’ but rather, ‘Juneteenth National Emancipation [or Freedom or otherwise] Day,’ Rep. Chip Roy of Texas said in a statement. “This name needlessly divides our nation on a matter that should instead bring us together by creating a separate Independence Day based on the color of one’s skin.

Calling it National Independence Day seems deliberately divisive. It's not only inaccurate, it's cultural appropriation.

It's not accurate to describe newly freed slaves as independent. They were still, overwhelmingly, poor and illiterate and unsophisticated. They were subjected to ugly discrimination nearly everywhere and easy marks for unscrupulous operators of every variety.

There is already a National Independence Day, hypocritical as it is to call it that. July 4, 1776, was definitely only a Declaration of Independence for wealthy WASP males. But still, it's an iconic piece of Americana. Appropriating the word for another holiday, when it isn't accurate, looks like an attempt to foster ill will and division.
Tom

And here I was thinking that the word independence used for July 4th indicated that the United States became its own nation that day. To my knowledge, black people didn't become their own nation on Juneteenth. It also has nothing to do with poverty, sophistication, or whether or not someone could read. To my understanding, people of all levels of intelligence and wealth played a role in the US' independence. But what do I know about America, I'm black. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

To me, making Juneteenth a federal thing is such a no-brainer I didn't read many of the early posts in this thread very closely.

But I must agree with Mr Roy here.

“I could not vote for this bill, however, because the holiday should not be called ‘Juneteenth National Independence Day’ but rather, ‘Juneteenth National Emancipation [or Freedom or otherwise] Day,’ Rep. Chip Roy of Texas said in a statement. “This name needlessly divides our nation on a matter that should instead bring us together by creating a separate Independence Day based on the color of one’s skin.

Calling it National Independence Day seems deliberately divisive. It's not only inaccurate, it's cultural appropriation.

It's not accurate to describe newly freed slaves as independent. They were still, overwhelmingly, poor and illiterate and unsophisticated. They were subjected to ugly discrimination nearly everywhere and easy marks for unscrupulous operators of every variety.

There is already a National Independence Day, hypocritical as it is to call it that. July 4, 1776, was definitely only a Declaration of Independence for wealthy WASP males. But still, it's an iconic piece of Americana. Appropriating the word for another holiday, when it isn't accurate, looks like an attempt to foster ill will and division.
Tom

It didn't look that way to the majority of Republicans and it isn't a logical inference either. Merely stating it "looks like an attempt" doesn't mean it looks like an attempt to the vast majority of people and so it doesn't look that way. You BELIEVE it to be the case which is different. In your example of overwhelmingly, poor and illiterate and unsophisticated (whatever that means) people, the same could be said of people in 1776. But moreover, all people were not free on July 4 and so how could it be accurately called Independence Day? It's really just a label. And the word "Independence" is NOT causing division. What is really causing division is a bunch of other things....way more division than simple semantics.

 

[TomC]

Why just fried chicken? When you RSVP for a wedding do you get a selection of meat? When it's a wedding of two black people do you imagine the RSVP card has two selections for meats: 1. Fried Chicken or 2. Fried Chicken? Anyway, I'm ignorant of Juneteenth foods and just started reading.

This makes no sense to me. This isn't a wedding a a themed store promotion.

If they were celebrating German Oktoberfest, what would you expect? Spaghetti, sashimi, burritos, or bratwurst?

The foods on that list aren't African. They are traditionally African-American. Like most other food traditions in poly-glot USA, authenticity is easy to question.

My take away from this "The Woke will always find a way to be victims."
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, I bet if you ask these same people who complained about this Ikea menu if they wanted to order some Italian food tonight they'd immediately think about Pizza and Lasagna.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why just fried chicken? When you RSVP for a wedding do you get a selection of meat? When it's a wedding of two black people do you imagine the RSVP card has two selections for meats: 1. Fried Chicken or 2. Fried Chicken? Anyway, I'm ignorant of Juneteenth foods and just started reading.

This makes no sense to me. This isn't a wedding a a themed store promotion.

It's not a promotion. It's a lunch provided to employees. The last time I had a lunch provided by employers there were selections. So a comparison to other systems of selections makes sense unless there is a meaningful difference. A celebration involving black persons was chosen in particular because of the racial commonality component. I could have used some other example than a wedding where selections are expected just as they are expected at lunch. Do you think that Juneteenth lunch should be expected to be less than some other employee lunch celebration where there is a selection of main course?

The last lunch I had paid for by the company I was working for, there were ONLY 4 employees having the lunch in a conference room just for our purposes. Just for us while we worked on something. The lunch STILL had more than one kind of pizza and salad and different kinds of soda and water and that was after we had agreed by consensus to order from a pizza place in the first place.

If they were celebrating German Oktoberfest, what would you expect? Spaghetti, sashimi, burritos, or bratwurst?

The foods on that list aren't African. They are traditionally African-American. Like most other food traditions in poly-glot USA, authenticity is easy to question.

You aren't making a whit of sense. Traditional Juneteenth foods are barbecue and grilled meats, plural. Fried chicken is neither barbecued nor grilled. Also, it's a single selection, not multi-selection. What if employees have dietary restrictions or preferences? A better selection might be, say Barbecued Chicken, Hot Links, and Fried Chicken and there appears to be a lot of veggies on the menu for vegetarians. But I am using the word "might" because it isn't up to me and as I described in the post in a paragraph that you have snipped, the better option was for IKEA to let the Black employees have a lot of input into the design of the menu.

Maybe every single one of the hundreds of employees would end up saying, "Hey let's just do fried chicken!" It's unlikely but possible in theory. Or maybe they'd all agree through consensus to make a large order from Red Lobster. Who knows.

My take away from this "The Woke will always find a way to be victims."
Tom

My takeaway is that it is hard to draw conclusions from stories where employee privacy is part of the practices of the employer, but there are still some limited conclusions you can make about treating people equally to how you are normally treated. And when you hear a complaint about 20 employees not showing up, there's something going on. The thing going on was that they were left out and had a surprise-wtf moment upon being let in to the decisions. And when you hear someone use the word "performative," there's something meant by that and that thing is likely not about fried chicken. There is evidence and from evidence we draw conclusions. And then, there are assumptions and assumptions limit our conclusions. That is how we ought to approach stories.

 

[Gospel]

Juneteenth is intended to be a positive Holiday where people of all races can celebrate the emancipation of the American slaves and have positive conversations about our (yes it is also a part of white peoples) history. It's meant to not only remember & show respect for those who came before us that did the right thing but also build upon the existing love, appreciation, and a sense of pride in the black community. I have no idea why there'd be any pushback to that or focus placed on silly Ikea menus. I mean even racist pricks should want to elevate the black community with all the complaining they do about the issues blacks seem to have. It only makes sense bruh.

 

[TomC]

You aren't making a whit of sense. Traditional Juneteenth foods are barbecue and grilled meats, plural. Fried chicken is neither barbecued nor grilled.

Have you ever even been to a good Juneteenth?

Church ladies competing for the best fried chicken is a thing. Of course, there's also somebody running the grill. Really, the food is great! Almost all of it's homemade, by people who know what they're doing.

It's not healthy. There's enough fat sugar and salt to kill an African village. But , boy it's tasty.

Nothing to do with big corporations hiring a caterer.

It was nice of IKEA to buy lunch for employees. People who didn't want the gift could politely say, "No thank you.", and eat whatever they want to eat. Racing to the internet to wail about being victimized by a menu that didn't include their personal favorites is impolite, to be charitable about it. My mom taught me that as a child.
Tom

 

[thebeave]

You aren't making a whit of sense. Traditional Juneteenth foods are barbecue and grilled meats, plural. Fried chicken is neither barbecued nor grilled.

Have you ever even been to a good Juneteenth?

Church ladies competing for the best fried chicken is a thing. Of course, there's also somebody running the grill. Really, the food is great! Almost all of it's homemade, by people who know what they're doing.

It's not healthy. There's enough fat sugar and salt to kill an African village. But , boy it's tasty.

Nothing to do with big corporations hiring a caterer.

It was nice of IKEA to buy lunch for employees. People who didn't want the gift could politely say, "No thank you.", and eat whatever they want to eat. Racing to the internet to wail about being victimized by a menu that didn't include their personal favorites is impolite, to be charitable about it. My mom taught me that as a child.
Tom

Your post reminded me of this classic video of a white guy attending a black cookout:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gmKxkRZzP4&t=81s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Metaphor]

I dunno man, that menu looks pretty damn good to me.

Me too! Its a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? In the effort to eliminate racial stereotypes, don't we sometimes deny pleasure to those who we are desperately trying not to offend? I'm trying to imagine what Juneteenth celebrations are going to look like going forward. When a city decides to have a Juneteenth picnic in the park, will the city menu planners purposely avoid all the menu items that have a black racial stereotype to them? So, it will just be white people picnic food, like hamburgers and hot dogs and La Croix soda water? Maybe throw in some Chow Mein and some burritos, but god forbid we have collard greens, or chicken or grape Kool Aid on the menu.

Growing up, I only ever heard the term 'collard greens' on American television shows, but I never knew what they were. In my head I pictured collared greens, wearing shirt and tie, with an impeccably starch-stiff collar on the shirt.

 

[Rhea]

When my company has a Black History Month event, put on by a team of 20 Black people (and 2 white people who are also on the team) the menu always includes collard greens and candied yams. The chicken is not fried, but it’s barbecued. Well, except last year, where they did a Caribbean and West African mashup. Which was also delelctable.

It’s all very delicious and we thoroughly enjoy the menu!

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yes, the bible certainly does condemn slavery.

Where?

From beginning to end, the Bible takes it for granted, though it does not mandate that anyone own slaves.

His statement makes complete logical sense. I've found that the people who don't know the bible very well, are more religious.

 

[Lion IRC]

Yes, the bible certainly does condemn slavery.

Where?

From beginning to end, the Bible takes it for granted, though it does not mandate that anyone own slaves.

His statement makes complete logical sense. I've found that the people who don't know the bible very well, are more religious.

Jimmy Higgins said the bible condemns slavery,
Im just agreeing.

 

[Gospel]

His statement makes complete logical sense. I've found that the people who don't know the bible very well, are more religious.

Jimmy Higgins said the bible condemns slavery,
Im just agreeing.

It also gave instructions for how slavery should be done.

 

[TomC]

His statement makes complete logical sense. I've found that the people who don't know the bible very well, are more religious.

Jimmy Higgins said the bible condemns slavery,
Im just agreeing.

No, the Bible doesn't.

It's a collection of writings by many authors over many centuries and then translated by someone or some committee. If you look hard enough and ignore the parts that don't suit you, you can find nearly anything.

But condemnation of slavery just isn't in there. From Genesis to the Epistles, slavery is just assumed to be part of God's Plan.

Ask most any early 19th century slave owner in very Christian South Carolina.
Tom