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Historical Jesus

Learner linked to video. Now I see it, the gospel Jesus was real.

Buddhists have resurrection beat, they have reincarnation. When you are good enough instead of reincarnation
yiu stay in a spirit form forever.
 
Two or more witnesses, is of major importance, highly emphasized in the bible...that's the difference between the bible and the other stories!
Who are these witnesses you are talking about? Which act was witnessed and by who, and where is their testimony recorded?

IOW you seem to mean by the question: "The separate individual writings/reports from these authors, who had their writings combined together; which became the Big Book ( BB if you will), i.e., bible... doesn't portray to YOU, that the 'written about' individual called Jesus, who also performed miracles, is not a written record". So, er.. therefore, "one must be cautious when calling these writings contained in the bible, a Testament, which is really meant to be something else; like the word written as 'Testament' was merely a simple translation error, made by a very inexperienced scribe".
So many words just to tell me that you can't name any witnesses or point me to anything they wrote. Or even demonstrate that they existed, for that matter.


You do know that the Gospel authors were not contemporaries of the alleged Jesus or any of his alleged actions, right? Right?

"The authors were not contemporaries of the alleged Jesus.." Alleged Jesus as in 'not a real' Jesus? Did I get you Right? If so, I'm sure you'll understand I don't agree to alleged, that's the wrong question to ask me. The 'Testament' as the word suggests, reports of His existence.
Alleged Jesus, as in, there is no conclusive evidence to place him as a real person in history who said and did many of the things that are alleged in the Bible. And you ignored the point I was making, that the writers of the gospels were NOT contemporaries of this alleged Jesus, and did not witness any of the alleged miracles, or know any of the alleged witnesses. Were you even aware of this fact?


The Jesus miracle stories would not be considered reliable even if we had the sworn testimony of a dozen named witnesses, each of whom could be placed in history as contemporaries, and even if we could believe that the witnesses were absolutely convinced they had witnessed miracles. That is because humans can lie, they can be fooled, or they can be mistaken.

No surprise, quite a high threshold to reach...
You think? You think people should just believe that a corpse rose up from the dead, hung out with some people and then flew up into the sky, because someone wrote a story about it decades later? You want us to believe that the story is true, but you can't even name the witnesses (as I had asked you to do) or demonstrate that they existed and wrote down the stories of what they had seen.

Tell us what an appropriate threshold is. Go on, tell us why you decided that these stories are likely to be true. What is your personal standard, and what happens when you apply this standard to other miracle stories.

Reminds me of when William Lane Craig replied to Keith Parsons, who was talking about the witnesses having hallucinations, which would be Keith's conclusion, and that, EVEN IF you believed what these witnesses said they saw, accepting that the event was real only to them -Craig replies to that "..then nothing will convince you.."

Do you believe in Ganesha? I bet you don't. Nothing will convince you that that the elephant headed god Ganesha really existed. Nothing! See how easy that was? And does that tell you something?


I think we agreed somewhere on another thread that the concept of magic (as mere humans and limitations) is not the same as Jesus and miracles.
Magic is the art of deceiving people into believing that the laws of the universe have been broken, without actually breaking them. You are not claiming magic, you are claiming that an actual fucking corpse was resurrected and then flew off into space under its own power. Can you tell the difference?


The Gospels don't have any witness testimony, they just have stories that were propagated around campfires and spread by word of mouth. Is it reasonable to believe that such stories that defy the laws of physics are credible? Of course not. Only a fool or an extremely gullible person would believe such stories.
See all of the responses above.
What responses? You haven't named any witnesses, or pointed us to their writings. Because they don't exist.

Which are you, the fool or the gullible person?
It's possible I may be a little bit of both (plus many other things that make me human).
This is the only part of your post I agree with.
 
Philo of Alexandria believed that Hercules was an actual historical person- if memory serves correctly. And Philo never mentions a Jesus even though Philo was an influential contemporary.

It's pretty obvious GJ is a fictional religious amalgam, that is if we are going to read these few stories with any sense of literalism, such as we would read any novel today. Authors cobble together a tale because that's what authors do. Earlier I mentioned the life of Romulus having Romulus do all manner of human things. The author was making Romulus, an obvious myth, into a flesh and blood person.

The historical Jesus is a collection of authors lost to history and who's stories themselves are amalgams of hearsay, magic and tall tale, That's what religion is all about.
 
To save you a thousand pages of reading...
Like you, I haven't failed to notice that the debate over the historicity of Jesus boils down to whom you want to agree with. Mere words are inadequate to establish Jesus as real or fabled, but it doesn't keep people from trying.
...the HJ argument basically boils down to that there's some scant evidence that maybe there was some guy who vaguely resembled the guy from the stories. Is pretty thin, though.
Actually, the evidence for Jesus isn't scant because there is plenty of it. The problem lies in the quality of that evidence rather than the quantity. In the same way that you are unlikely to drown in a river that's a mile wide but only an inch deep, you are unlikely to discover a real Jesus among the reams of documentary evidence that have originated from sources lacking credibility. A "lot of evidence" emerging from people who were not in a position to know Jesus existed is not very convincing to me.
It's enough of a tenuous thread to cling to if you're a believer and you want to pretend that there's validation for you beliefs because you know deep down that faith doesn't actually cut it...
That's a good observation. The elephant in the room here is that billions of Christians stake their immortality on a historical Jesus, and even many non-Christians have a stake in his existence. As such, they are unlikely to accept a mythical Jesus. As you imply, Jesus isn't really necessary for knowing history but to uphold faith and career goals. Nevertheless, asserting that Jesus existed is seen as a way to uphold faith in him.
...but if you have no emotional investment in the story then it's kind of dumb to put any credence in what's out there.
It's common for historicists to assert that mythicists are almost always atheists. They are suggesting that if a person doesn't like the dogmas of Christianity, then what better way to destroy those dogmas than to say that Jesus never existed! While there may be some truth to that view, another way to look at it is that because most atheists have no need for a real Jesus, then they are freer to accept the possibility that he never existed.
 
Philo of Alexandria believed that Hercules was an actual historical person- if memory serves correctly.
There's a good chance that Hercules and other ancient heroes really did exist, minus most of the later fiction added during 1000+ years of storytelling.


And Philo never mentions . . . Jesus even though Philo was an influential contemporary.
He also never mentions Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Shammai, the two leading Jewish scholars of the period and far more famous and recognized than Jesus was. He also never mentions the Sanhedrin, the influential Jewish high court for all Israel. Philo focuses much more on events in Alexandria than in Judah and Galilee. What little he mentions of events in Israel is limited to political events only -- a little about Pontius Pilate, Herod Antipas -- those in high political power positions. He mentions having once visited the Jerusalem temple, but he conspicuously has little to say about it and shows ignorance of that area. His mention of the temple seems like something he says as a salute to it, to pay recognition to the temple as a Jewish symbol, and there are even doubts that he really had ever been there.
 
Leading scholars of the period?

Whatever you call it, the evidnce is scant for the gospel Jesus. Theist or seculalr 'scholar', it is the same speculations and interpretations.
 
To me the Jesus myth falls into a category of writing that is "Mythology posing as history."
It sure looks that way to me too. I should add that "Mythology posing as history" is just a fancy way of saying lie. It's very common for those who espouse a historical Jesus to downplay the possibility that his story could just be a pack of lies. Considering that almost all of the evidence for Jesus originated in a fanatical religious sect, we shouldn't be surprised that they do downplay that possibility.
So to summarize, we have a story that includes about 4-6 things that *might* have happened:

  • Baptism by John
  • Calling the disciples
  • Various sermons / teachings / confrontations with Jewish leaders
  • Rides into Jerusalem on a borrowed mule, makes a scene, gets his ass Jimmy Hoffa'd.
Many Jewish men from that time and place fit that description. Some of them could have been named "Jesus."
Personally I think there was a historical person behind all this, and that this person had the charisma to generate a cult following. When he got disappeared his followers lived in denial and believed he'd be back some day. This belief evolved into the still-being-preached warning that he's "coming soon."
Why limit the possibility to one man? Oddly enough, it seems likely that not only did Jesus exist, but there were many of them (see above). Unfortunately, most people are referring to a single, unique individual when they speak of Jesus. Such an individual is much harder to substantiate than some generic, loser Jesus. I think that there was a tradition among some Jews of that day to revere these Jewish rebels who died for Israel's struggle for freedom from the Romans. Since "Jesus" was such a common name among the Jews, it was an apt choice to name a figurehead who encompassed that hoped-for salvation.
 
There's a good chance that Hercules and other ancient heroes really did exist, minus most of the later fiction added during 1000+ years of storytelling.

You don't say.
Yes, it always required many centuries of storytelling for the "supernatural" or "miracle" events to appear in the stories, as mythic fiction elements. This mythologizing never developed in less than 100-200 years (except in the case of a powerful warrior hero idolized by millions of admirers -- e.g., Alexander the Great's miracle birth legend).
 
Nonsense, fiction can be created and accepted instantaneously.
 
There's a good chance that Hercules and other ancient heroes really did exist, minus most of the later fiction added during 1000+ years of storytelling.
You don't say.

Yes, it always required many centuries of storytelling for the "supernatural" or "miracle" events to appear in the stories, as mythic fiction elements. This mythologizing never developed in less than 100-200 years (except in the case of a powerful warrior hero idolized by millions of admirers -- e.g., Alexander the Great's miracle-birth legend).
Nonsense, ["supernatural" or "miracle"] fiction can be created and accepted instantaneously.
No, it always required centuries. If not, you would give an example from the ancient literature. But there are no examples. All the miracle heroes developed over centuries of storytelling, never in less than 100 years.

With the one exception of the Jesus miracle-worker about 30 AD, who stands apart from everything previous and befuddles all the scholars who try to explain all miracle stories as being part of the cultural context of the historical period. Jesus in about 30 AD is the one case which uniquely does not fit the cultural context. The debunkers have nightmares over this one case which stands apart, but so far have only made fools of themselves scrambling hysterically to find an explanation for this one exception which doesn't conform to their theories.
 
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This question is too easy since I can site extant individuals who are considered miracle workers. Making up shit doesn't take centuries.
 
Proof that it required centuries to make up shit

blastula: Nonsense, ["supernatural" or "miracle"] fiction can be created and accepted instantaneously.
No, it always required centuries. If not, you would give an example from the ancient literature. But there are no examples. All the miracle heroes developed over centuries of storytelling, never in less than 100 years.
This question is too easy since I can site extant individuals who are considered miracle workers. Making up shit doesn't take centuries.
It did 2000 years ago. (Do you understand this is about "the Historical Jesus" of 2000 years ago?)

Of course with today's Internet you can probably find a 3-headed alligator resurrecting from the dead and turning water into a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. But our topic is about what happened 2000 years ago. -- Or 1000 years ago. Back before modern publishing there were no instant miracle-workers. I.e., they could not be invented, like anything can be invented with today's media/technology.

You prove the point by failing to offer any example from the ancient world, and instead falling back on technology today when making up shit and publishing it is a million times easier. Literally a million times easier. (even 100 million)

And many others also have proved it, claiming instant miracle-workers could be invented in ancient times but never offering real examples of it.
 
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The Trump Myth took about a year to develop.
 
translation: Yes you're right -- it always required centuries for the miracle legends to become established in the culture. We can't find evidence to show otherwise even though we've desperately searched everywhere. So our only argument has to be that all history events are fiction, so there's no credible history at all, and we should only laugh at any claimed history events, and stop teaching any history whatever because it's all just shit made up by someone.


The Trump Myth took about a year to develop.
Which miracle myth was this? Do you have a citation for this ancient miracle legend?
 
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translation: Yes you're right -- it always required centuries for the miracle legends to become established in the culture. We can't find evidence to show otherwise even though we've desperately searched everywhere.
A story about a resurrected corpse flying off into the sky under its own power does NOT become credible just because someone wrote a story about it decades later, and some other people copied the story even later and changed/embellished it. It is not reasonable to believe in resurrected flying corpses. Period.

Your argument is fallacious, and is grounded on flawed premises. Myths often take very little time to develop, for example, the cargo cult mythology in certain Asian and Pacific islander communities around the second world war that grew over a period of years. And we know that the mythology involving a savior human creature who overcame death or a great passion to come back to save his followers is common in that part of the world at the time the Jesus mythology originated, and had been around for centuries prior to alleged Jesus. You have been provided this evidence before but you keep repeating the lie.

Instead of providing evidence for the alleged miracles, you argue from ignorance and personal incredulity.
We don't see myths developing in short period of time, therefore we should believe in flying resurrected zombie Jesus, because I can't think of a way this could have happened otherwise.

Your arguments have been debunked many times in the past, but you keep ignoring the refutations, and keep repeating the nonsense.

So our only argument has to be that all history events are fiction, so there's no credible history at all, and we should only laugh at any claimed history events, and stop teaching any history whatever because it's all just shit made up by someone.
That is a lie, Nobody has made the argument that all historical arguments should be considered fiction. The credibility of historical claims are assessed by trained and educated historians using well established epistemological procedures. Procedures that you are not willing to consider.

There is not a single documented historical event involving flying resurrected corpses that is taken seriously by historians. Not one. Your claim that the story of a flying resurrected corpse should be considered just as credible as claims that do not involve flying resurrected corpses, or any supernatural events for that matter, is deeply flawed, and self-serving. Again, this has been pointed out to you before, but you have never responded to these refutations. You behave exactly like every other dishonest Christian out there who is willing to lie to propagate their theology.
 
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It did 2000 years ago. (Do you understand this is about "the Historical Jesus" of 2000 years ago?)

Of course with today's Internet

No, there was no shortage of miracle workers pre-internet. And I don't buy your extraordinary claim that 2000 years ago human fabulism was any different than today or the recent well documented past.
 
Settle down and look at the facts.


atrib:
. . . it always required centuries for the miracle legends to become established in the culture. We can't find evidence to show otherwise even though we've desperately searched everywhere.
A story about a resurrected corpse flying off into the sky under its own power does . . .
What is this flying corpse nightmare you keep having?

The Jesus story is about the instant healing acts, and also about the resurrection event. The latter is reported in 5 sources, which makes it credible, with no evidence contradicting it. And the miracle healings are reported in 4 sources. His bodily ascension into the sky is less certain, being mainly from one source only. It isn't essential that the bodily ascension must have happened rather than being an embellishment added to the basic resurrection event. Either way, what's important is the overcoming of death as shown in the physical resurrection, even if this possibly was embellished later by the ascension story being added.

. . . does NOT become credible just because someone wrote a story about it decades later, and some other people copied the story even later and . . .
Yes it does become credible when later sources report it, just as all our reported historical events become credible because they are reported in sources from the time. Without these later sources, usually decades later, or even 100+ years later, we would not have our ancient history events which virtually all are known to us from such later sources. Usually they are known to us in only 1 source, and sometimes 2. Rarely are they known to us from sources contemporary to the reported events, but usually many "decades later" than the events happened.

And all of them are "copied" from someone later, seldom reported directly from the first writer. At least 3 of our sources for the Resurrection are not copied from each other but are totally separate. But even when an account did copy from an earlier account, this doesn't undermine the credibility at all. It shows that the writer is careful to rely on earlier written reports rather than try to remember an oral report, and rather than inventing or paraphrasing something he's not sure about. That they copied from the earlier account shows they are being careful to get the correct facts rather than risk making an error.

There's no reported event in the historical sources which is rejected or considered less credible because the writer copied something from an earlier source.

. . . copied the story even later and changed/embellished it. It is not reasonable to believe in resurrected flying corpses. Period.
Getting hysterical and sensationalist about the "flying corpses" is irrelevant to the point. This is not what the Resurrection event is about. It's possible the ascension is a later embellishment, but either way it doesn't matter. We have 5 sources for the Resurrection, or his physical return to life and rising from the grave and being seen alive by many witnesses. Being reported in 5 sources near the time, rather than 500 or 1000 years later as was the norm for ancient miracle myths, makes this reported event credible by comparison to most miracle legends which are fiction.

You have to address this point instead of repeatedly going bezirk over the "flying corpses" you're having nightmares about.

. . . Myths often take very little time to develop, for example, the cargo cult mythology in certain Asian and Pacific islander communities . . .
These are irrelevant. These are not about any reported miracle events or acts by miracle-workers. Our topic here is about miracle myths, or reports of superhuman or supernatural acts, or something so unusual that it defies normal experience and is unexplained by current known science. This is not what the "cargo cult" myths are about.

Such reported miracle acts or miracle events, where the gods send something that strikes 1000 soldiers dead, or an Egyptian Pharaoh's dead body is brought back together so he can have sex with his wife, etc., are legends which evolve over many centuries and do not suddenly appear within a few years. Not even within 100 years. You don't have any examples of such instant miracle events, or instant miracle-workers.

And we know that the mythology involving a savior human creature who overcame death or a great passion to come back to save his followers is common in that part of the world at the time the Jesus mythology originated, and had been around . . .
No, if that were true you would have found an example of it and provided the ancient text which narrates it. There were no such savior humans in the ancient literature, especially not the period approaching the time of Jesus. Of course you've been told there were such reported miracle saviors by gurus you believe who did not give you any evidence, because you just wanted to believe them, and you no doubt have a list of names of ancient deities or "divine men" or saviors you think fit this description.

But what you do not have is any ancient text (such as we have 1st-century written accounts reporting the Jesus miracle acts) which report anyone of the time who "overcame death" or performed other miracle acts. All you have are some legends from poets or other writers eulogizing an ancient deity 1000+ years earlier than when the writer lived. Yes, there were 1000-year-old legends about the ancient deities. But no written accounts of such miracle-workers during the period when the poet or writer eulogized the ancient miracle-working deity. You need to do your homework and figure this out, about the dating, about when the alleged miracle happened compared to when the later poet wrote about it.

. . . had been around for centuries prior to alleged Jesus.
Yes, Homer and other earlier poets wrote about ancient miracle myths 500 years earlier than when they wrote about them. Those are the miracle legends which required centuries to evolve in the culture. There are many such ancient miracles reported 500 or 1000 years after they allegedly happened. The ancient pagan worshipers and their poets did eulogize the ancient deities. But not any recent miracle-worker charlatans near their time. There were some charlatans, but no writers reported on them other than a few cases they reported as charlatans.


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
Christianity existed for centuries before the Roman Elite took over.

They invented the Creed. They weaponized Christianity. They got rid of Jesus and made it about a pagan demigod, Christ, and got on with the usual empire stuff.
When approximately are you asserting that this happened? If we say the NT gospels occurred late first, early second century, when did the Jesus religion become weaponized?
If I had to pick a year it would be 325ce.
But I think it was a process that extended from the late 3rd century through the 4th.

I don't think that the NT "occurred", exactly. More like "evolved", it came about due to a Jewish heretical movement being transplanted into the wider Greco Roman world. Then almost everything original, from Judea, was pulverized by the Roman Empire. That's why there's no evidence of Jesus' existence that can be attributed to original sources. Why there's no real biography. Why His story developed a huge batch of pagan legends.
Because that's what made "Christianity" appealing to a wider audience*. So, it didn't just survive, it thrived and grew. So much that it became a political force, possibly useful to a Roman warlord/emperor.

Especially one presiding over an empire in serious decline. Like Constantine was.
Tom

* I honestly don't even think that's what made Christianity appealing. I think it was the communitarian ethics.
 
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