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How do artificially HIGHER WAGES and "JOB CREATION" benefit the economy?

Higher wages are not always good for the economy, nor a measure of the economy's performance . . .

. . . except as a cliché for pandering to the mindless masses.


. . . I think that a strong economy can pay higher wages and benefits to it's workers. In fact, we generally see that the strongest economies usually pay the highest wages.

Yes, the stronger economy causes higher wages. But the reverse is not the case:

Higher wages do NOT cause a stronger economy.

Rather, they're a luxury which the stronger economy can afford.

And sometimes higher wages are necessary to attract the needed labor or to get better performance from the workers, in which case they're good for the economy, just as LOWER wages are good when there is an oversupply of labor.

It's always good to let the wages be determined by supply-and-demand. Meaning that sometimes a higher wage is necessary, and other times a lower wage is necessary, in order to get maximum output from the production.

But the general dogma that HIGHER WAGES are good for the economy is a phony slogan dished out to the idiot masses, to pacify them, or to win their votes, e.g., demagogues like Bernie Sanders with his "good-paying jobs" babble.
 
Higher wages in general most definitely cause a more vibrant and dynamic economy.

The more money people have to spend the more vibrant the economy.

The good work of unions has allowed enough to get something out of capitalism for there to be a decent economy.

If it were up to capitalists the economy would be much less vibrant and people would have much less money to spend.

The reason most can live a decent life in a sick disturbed capitalist system is because of unions.

We owe it ALL to the lives of union leaders.
 
Here again, Lumpenproletariat fails to address the question of where "consumers" get their money from. Do they pick it off of money trees? If so, then where can I get one?
 
There is nothing "fair and decent" about putting people into unnecessary factory jobs.

A fair and decent economic model should be geared to benefit all citizens.

Yes, and benefit to all citizens is what we get if we leave the factories in China, to continue the economic gain of the lower production cost, rather than the Trump/Sanders obsession to force the factories back to the U.S. and thus drive up the cost of production and the prices consumers have to pay, which means lower living standard for Americans.


Income distribution should be a reflection of that aim....and not be a matter of 'benefiting the economy' . . . ,

The "income distribution" is made worse, not better, by driving up costs only to create artificial factory jobs which we don't need. These artificial jobs promoted by Trump and Sanders take production done in China and transfer it to the U.S., where it costs more and results in higher prices paid by 300 million American consumers, including all the poor, whose living standard is thus reduced.

So there is no improved production, but only the same production as before, now done at higher cost than before, and reducing the living standard of 300 million, including all the poor, but possibly increasing incomes to a few million workers in the $50,000+ per year range. This is a worse income distribution, not better, robbing 300 million, including the poor, in order to improve the incomes of a small fraction in the $50,000 per year range, who add no benefit to production over what had already been done before when the same production was done in China.

Babbling about the meaning of "the economy" does not change this reality that people's lives are overall worse off as a result.

. . . which appears to be a euphemism for 'benefiting those at the top of the heap'

No, the "euphemism" is the "Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!" babble of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump and the idiots who voted for them. And the meaning of it is "benefiting" a few million of those in the $50,000 income level, while forcing 300 million others at all income levels to pay for it and get nothing in return.

While the best income distribution -- for "those at the top" and bottom and middle -- is what we get if the factories remain in China to take advantage of the lower cost of production there, including lower labor cost.

And no one posting here yet is giving any reason that the income distribution or "the economy" or "the people" etc. are made any better by this Trump-Sanders "jobs! jobs! jobs!" babble nonsense and worshiping factories for the sake of factories.
 
It like an invasion from a recent conversion to Scientology.

In the US the word "economy" is a euphamism for the comfort level of the top few percent.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the level of comfort and security of most people.

Over the last 40 years the wages of American workers have stagnated and declined. The cost of things like college have skyrocket. All costs have risen.

The lives of most in the US have gotten slowly worse over the last 40 years.

They have never seen a good economy. Only stagnation and a few collapses where millions suffered

A good "economy" is when many are suffering and struggling and many have no work.
 
... but a society should seek to benefit the people within it, not some proxy measures that concentrate on a single aspect of life to the exclusion of all else.
When I was in college the guys in the philosophy department had T-shirts that read:

What does it mean?
How do you know?​

What does it mean for a society to seek something? Seeking is something individuals do. Do you mean some particular individuals should seek to benefit the people within it? Which people should the seekers you have in mind seek to benefit? Just about everyone in a society is already seeking to benefit some people; what more are you asking for? Do you mean it's someone's job to seek to benefit everyone? Do you mean there exists some sort of societal hive mind that should seek stuff above and beyond what any individual is seeking?

And whatever the heck it is you mean by "a society should seek", how do you know?

Your entire screed is based on a misconception about what goals are desirable
All goals are desirable. Who would have a goal he didn't desire? So apparently you mean something by "desirable" other than "able to be desired". What do you mean by "desirable"?

A lower standard of living for the wealthiest 90% of people may well be a very desirable thing, if it enables a higher standard of living for the least wealthy 10%.
A lower standard of living for the wealthiest 90% of people is a very desirable thing even if that causes a lower standard of living for the least wealthy 10%, judging by the rhetoric of many anticapitalists. Bernie Sanders favors a maximum wage, even though that self-evidently benefits no one but political demagogues like himself. Which people's desires go into determining which things are "desirable"?

The measure of societal success is the standard of living of its poorest member.
How do you know?

That member of society may be the member with the lowest standard of living, but there are plenty of non-members with lower. You've been advocating some approximation of open borders: having Australia welcome all the boat people crossing from Indonesia. If Australia does this it will divert resources that could instead be spent on improving the standard of living of the poorest members of Australian society. So you appear to have contradictory standards for societal success. Is a society that sacrifices the needs of its poorest members to the needs of nonmembers successful, or not?
 
However bad it is, the Trump/Sanders demagoguery -- "jobs! jobs! job!" -- only makes it worse.

But you're completely wrong about the other side of the equation.

Raising wages does improve the economy.

Only if it means an improvement in the production being done, in which case employers do pay higher wages as necessary in order to get that better production.

But factories transferred from China to the U.S. do not result in better production, but only in higher costs. Some U.S. workers get a higher wage from these unnecessary jobs, which pay higher than their job at McDonalds, but there's no improved production as a result, so there's no gain for the country, or all the people, but a net loss to everyone else. Despite the "good-paying jobs" babble of Bernie Sanders.


Raising Wages and the Economy
You'd have to be blinded by ideology to fail to see it.

Because of conservative economic policies, the total disposable income of the population has been going down as our wages stagnate relative to the cost of living.

Artificially transferring factories from China to the U.S. cannot improve the income relative to the stuff produced. Some of those who get the new factory jobs will experience a higher income, but the rest of the country experiences higher prices, and so their real income decreases as a result.


That means every year, fewer and fewer dollars are available to purchase the products made by corporations.

But the Trump-Sanders artificial factory jobs can't improve this, because they only increase the prices we all have to pay for those products. Even a million additional "good-paying jobs" benefit only those million workers, while the 300 million other Americans have to pay higher prices as a result.


According to your understanding, the fact that corporations are spending less and less on wages (relative to the cost of living) every year, this means that corporations should get more and more profits, which in turn leads to a stronger economy, right? Well, we've been having your ideal conditions: the money corporations spend on wages goes down every year relative to inflation, and yet companies keep going out of business and the economy keeps contracting.

It expands and contracts, and it's always been the case that more companies fail than succeed. The Trump-Sanders artificial factory jobs only make it all worse, by driving up costs with no improvement in production.


You are confused because you think that the elites are all that matter. If the elites do better, then everyone is doing better because those dirty serfs don't matter, right? And if the elites do worse, that means everyone is doing worse because again, no one cares about those stupid dirty serfs.

Or how about "Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!" Yes, you're well-versed in the Marxist rhetoric, and creating new buzz-words like "elites" and "serfs" in place of "bourgeois" and "proletariat" -- that's good, mix it up, whatever gets the adrenaline going in those idiot rabble masses -- they'll slurp it up.

Meanwhile, your Trump-Sanders artificial factory jobs don't go to serfs, but to middle-class workers in the $50,000 and higher range. While millions of "serfs" in our society are among those who have to pay the cost for those "good-paying jobs" to a select few.


Here's the thing: every time minimum wage is increased, there's a boom in the economy.

No, you have the cause/effect reversed: Every time there's a boom in the economy, the minimum wage is increased.

You know that those recent minimum-wage increases are mostly subject to the condition that the unemployment rate must remain below a designated level. If the economy changes and the unemployment level rises above that level, the wage increase is cancelled or postponed. The minimum wage is never increased except when the prospect is for improvement in the employment numbers.

There is no causal relationship of higher wages > better economy. It's always better economy > higher wages and increased minimum wage.


This is particularly ironic with restaurant owners, since they are often the ones fighting hardest to keep minimum wage down in local governments. When families have to tighten their belts because their wages are not keeping up with the cost of living, the first thing they do is go out to eat less often.

No, the first thing they do is find a cheaper restaurant. Where the workers are paid less and the prices are lower.


So every time restaurants fight local government to keep wages down, they're the ones to take the negative hit first.

No, the restaurant owners are not the dummies you're saying they are. They're not stupid enough to believe that higher minimum wage produces more business for them. Rather, their increased business happens when the economy is doing better, and that's also when politician-demagogues decide to increase the minimum wage.


Conversely, when minimum wage is raised, people have more disposable income, and the first thing people do when they get more money to spend is go out to eat more often.

No, if all that happens is the minimum wage increase, then the prices also increase, to pay that higher labor cost, and the result is no net improvement in the economy, as 99% of the population experiences a net reduction in real income as a result of the higher prices.


Thus, when minimum wage is raised, it's usually the restaurants that feel the benefits first.

No, they're already feeling the benefits of the improved economy and higher business, and only then is the minimum wage increased. There's no net benefit from increasing the minimum wage per se.


When minimum wage is increased, it doesn't just mean more spending money for burger flippers. This affects wages across the board for everyone except maybe for people with 6-figure salaries.

The more widespread you push up the wages, the more widespread the prices have to go up in order to pay these higher costs of business.

But you're partly right in one respect: the big corporations can more easily absorb the higher labor cost, at least for a period, while the small mom-and-pops are the first to be driven out of business by higher costs. So your minimum wage is a good way to push out some of the small companies and favor the giant mega-corporations, if that's the result you want.


We're not just talking about restaurant employees having more disposable income, but just about anyone who works for a paycheck.

All of whom have to pay higher prices as a result of the higher labor cost. Higher wage + higher cost of living = no net gain, or even a net loss for all.

You can't spread the higher wages out to more wage-earners without also spreading the higher costs out to more employers and thus higher prices everyone has to pay.


Individual Businesses vs the Whole Economy
I think the problem people get is that they can't think on a macroscopic scale. They pick a specific example, and try to extrapolate from there.

Let's say that one individual business raises their wages, and no one else in the economy does. What happens to the bottom line of that one business? Obviously, that one business is going to earn less profit. Or at least that should be the case. Oddly, there are lots of cases where that doesn't happen, but let's not deal with that for now.

So if raising wages in one business leads to less profits, then that must mean raising wages for all businesses must cause a reduction in profit for the entire economy, right? This is a  fallacy of composition. What's true of the parts isn't necessarily true for the whole. You can look at actual economic data for places that have raised minimum wages and see what I'm talking about.

Those "studies" are mostly phony. There is no way to prove what effect a minimum-wage increase had on the economy because there are too many factors. There are an equal number of studies saying it hurt the economy as those saying it benefited the economy.

There is only one case on record, for sure, where the minimum-wage increase was large enough and had enough impact in order to determine the net result, and that is the case in Samoa 2007-09, where the percent of MW jobs was high enough so it's possible to determine the actual impact, which was devastating to the Samoan economy, and Congress had to rescind the MW increase, so even the Democrats and others who preached the benefits of MW increase had to admit they were wrong.

This is one case where we really do know the net impact of increasing the minimum wage, in contrast to all the phony "studies" by experts pretending to isolate all the factors and determine that there was a tiny net benefit from increasing it, or a net harm, which also cannot be determined, because there are too many other factors affecting the employment level in the overall economy.

So, do not believe the so-called "studies" which pretend to measure the benefits/harms caused by minimum wage increase. Virtually all of them are just false propaganda and are designed in advance to promote the theories of the economists doing the study, all of whom are promoting their ideology, on either side of the debate.


See, when one business raises their wages, nothing else in the economy changes. The people buying products from that business don't necessarily have more money to spend, but the business itself is spending more money, thus it gets lower profits.

But if all of the businesses raise their wages, then a large portion of the economy has more money to buy things, . . .

No they don't. Their real income is not higher, because the immediate result is also higher prices, meaning their money is worth less than before, so there is no real increase in their purchasing power.

. . . which in turn means certain businesses will need to buy more of the things they need to do business, which in turn means those businesses are buying more stuff from other businesses.

No they're not, because all the prices they have to pay for that stuff are higher than before.

Yes, every business is spending more money on their own employees, but their customers also have more disposable income, . . .

No, not more real income, because all the prices they have to pay are now higher than before. So there's no net higher disposable income than before.

. . . which in most cases means more disposable income for customers which means more sales for most (but not all) businesses.

No, with the higher prices to pay the higher labor cost there's no increase in real disposable income for consumers.

If everyone has to spend more money on employees, that's balanced out by having a large number of customers with more money to spend.

No they do NOT have "more money to spend" because the prices they have to pay are now higher, so their money is not worth as much as before, so the net total they have to spend is no higher.


Again, look at the economic results of places that have raised minimum wage and you'll see what I'm talking about. The positive gains will generally show up in businesses such as restaurants first.

No, any such positive gains are not a result of minimum wage increase, but are due to an improving economy BEFORE the MW increase, and when the demagogue-politicians could foresee the prospect of an improved economy, they decided to increase the minimum wage. They never increase it when the prospects for business are poor.


Conclusion
Right now, in America, wages have stagnated relative to the cost of living such that every year, more and more of the money we make has to be spent on simply keeping ourselves and our families alive.

However bad it is for some, the Trump-Sanders program of relocating factory jobs from China to the U.S. will only make it worse. Artificially driving up the labor cost or other costs of production does not benefit "our families" or "the people" or "the economy" or the nation.


That means less money to spend on restaurants, less money to spend on going out to the movies, less money to spend on home theater systems, etc.

Artificially increasing the wages with unneeded factory jobs doesn't do anything to improve it. It only increases the prices we have to pay for the movies etc. All that stuff made in China only gets more costly when we transfer the production to the U.S. where it all becomes more expensive. All that higher cost to 300 million consumers is not offset by a million (or 2 or 3 million) unneeded factory jobs paying workers more than WalMart might pay them. That extra cash they gain is paid for by the higher prices we all have to pay, including all the poor (or at least 99% of them) who shop at WalMart etc.


Suppressing wages provides a temporary benefit to the economic elites who . . .

No one benefits from "suppressing" wages, and no one favors it. What benefits us all is to let the competitive market set all the prices and wages, based on supply-and-demand. We all benefit when ALL producers, including wage-earners, have to compete in the market, to keep costs down.

. . . elites who own lots of stocks, but it hurts everyone else, including businesses in the long run.

Lower labor cost = lower prices EVERYONE pays, 300+ million consumers. As long as those lower wages are due to a competitive market driven by supply-and-demand.


And that's what's happening right now. We're in another race to the bottom just like the crash that preceded the Great Depression, . . .

And that was made worse by high wages and high tariffs in the 1920s.

All the Trump-Sanders "jobs! jobs! jobs!" policies were in place in the 1920s, including crackdown on the employment of undocumented immigrant workers, as immigration became more restricted in order to create more jobs for red-blooded Americans.

. . . only this time the crash is happening much slower because that mean ol' FDR put in place many mechanisms that were intended to prevent another race to the bottom, and the Republicans and establishment Democrats have not yet succeeded in dismantling all of those mechanisms.

Neoliberalism isn't capitalist. If anything, it's anticapitalist. Feudal economies always end the same way: with a very small number of very rich people, and everyone else living in abject poverty. Capitalism as we know it can't survive that. People need disposable income so that they can buy miniature latte machines for the kitchen and big screen televisions for the family room.

With the Trump-Sanders crackdown on China trade, all those items will become more costly for consumers, and the poor will be made worse off.


Every year, the total disposable income of the population is going down, and the executives of many of the corporations hurt by this are spending money to bribe politicians to make the disposable income of the population go down even faster.

No, they're bribing them mostly to let them produce without imposing excess costs onto them, so they can make more profits and still keep prices low.


We can return to the FDR policies that built the middle class that made the economy we knew possible, . . .

No, the FDR-Hoover policies drove up the cost of production and imposed higher prices onto consumers, and thus caused the Depression to be much worse than it would have been otherwise. (There was some deflation and lower prices, but the Hoover-FDR policies per se pushed prices up, in an effort to artificially boost the incomes of producers, including the nutty practice of having farmers destroy their produce in order to drive up prices, based on FDR's fraudulent snake-oil economics ideology.)

. . . or we can continue dismantling the middle class until no one is left who can afford to buy the products made by all those corporations, and they can switch to selling things to Europe and China.

That's more likely to happen if we pursue the Trump-Sanders China-bashing program of relocating jobs to the U.S., where they cost so much more and drive up the prices higher and make 300 million consumers worse off.


Oh, who am I kidding. Avoiding economic collapse would require millions of Republican voters to admit that they are wrong about Trickle On economics, and we all know that will never happen.

What they're wrong about is giving us a demagogue trade-bashing blowhard who's good at pandering to the idiot masses who clamor for "jobs! jobs! jobs!" instead of letting the competitive free market perform its function of serving consumers with the best production at the lowest possible cost.

While the only alternative Democrat voters offer is an equally-fraudulent trade-bashing demagogue who panders to the Democrat idiots with his "good-paying jobs" babble.
 
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Your questions answered #1

How do artificially HIGHER WAGES and JOB CREATION benefit the economy?

Job creation is another way of saying economic growth. We also have job destruction so we have to have at least enough job creation to balance the job destruction just to stay even. And we have to have even more to have economic growth. We have to have positive economic growth because the economy spirals quickly into the opposite, economic contraction. Job destruction happens at a faster rate than job creation. A positive economic growth maintains a safety margin against economic contraction, that is against having a recession.

We also have to have economic growth to provide for population growth.

Job destruction happens for many reasons. Some jobs become obsolete, there aren't many workers making 8 track players anymore. Some jobs disappear because of mechanization and automation. Whole factories close as companies move to low wage countries to produce products and to increase profits.

Higher wages will create jobs and economic growth. If workers have higher wages they have more money to spend. They buy more things and business will build factories to produce more things. The factories need additional workers to run the new factories and this is the new job creation.

Economists say that higher wages create more demand in the economy, as in the demand for goods and services. That the higher demand creates the need for more supply in the economy, as in the supply of more goods and services.

As in all things in life, there are constraints in the economy. You can increase wages too much and the demand that the higher wages produce will exceed the ability of the economy to provide enough supply and what will happen is that the prices will go up. This is inflation.
 
Your questions answered #2

Your entire OP is based on the concept that higher wages mean higher prices.

This isn't true, higher wages don't guarantee higher prices. You are forgetting the about the other variable in the calculation, profits.

Profits are the difference between what you are paid for the products and what it costs for you to make the product. Put another way, profits are what is left over from the revenues after you pay all of all of the bills, including the wage bill.

Wages are a cost of production just like the cost of raw materials, rent, and the power bill. When any of these costs go up profits go down. What you think that the effect will be on prices depends on how you believe that prices are determined.

If you believe that the supply and the demand for the product set the price then you have to believe that there will be no increase in the price for the increased wages. There hasn't been any change in either the supply or the demand for the product.

Even if you take the more realistic view that supply and demand are only a second order determinate of price and that prices are set by producers based on the average costs of production plus a margin for profits to invest in the business, there is little reason for the producer to raise the price to recover the amount of the increased wages. It would directly threaten the most important part of the equation for the business, the sales volume. Most businesses raise their prices once a year and then only enough to stay even with inflation and maybe a little more if they can if they feel like they have increased the quality of the product.

The fantasy of the free market and Econ 101's idea that producers compete almost exclusively on price is completely wrong. Producers avoid competing based on price as much as they can. They strongly prefer to compete with each other on quality, innovation, branding, and by improving productivity to lower their costs of production. These are highly desirable for the economy, much more so than your ideas of low prices, low wages, and low demand.

Competing on price can only have one of two possible end results, a profitless race to the bottom for the few survivors or one lone survivor who ends up with a monopoly and the huge legal bills from $1000 dollar an hour attorneys trying to keep the government at bay.
 
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Lumpenproletariat, do you really think most of the population of the US is better off after the free trading days (post Reagan) than it was before that time? The best years of the US (1952-1970) were also the same years when the US had no globalism and high unionism. And extreme wealth disparity only took hold post Reagan globalism years to levels not seen since the 1920's.

Protectionism, high tax rates for the weslthy, and strong unions are good for the country and the middle class in general. You can argue otherwise but the proof is in our own history for everyone to see.

And keeping your crybabies happy is also more important than you realize. Because the crybabies are going to elect someone even more radical than Trump next time if their lives dont start to improve in the near future.

Those times were due to major exploitation.

Both of non-white Americans and of foreigners who either didn't have much industry or it had been smashed in WWII.

The former ended with the civil rights movement, the latter ended as the world recovered. Those boom times aren't coming back no matter how many times you kowtow to His Flatulence.
 
Lumpenproletariat, do you really think most of the population of the US is better off after the free trading days (post Reagan) than it was before that time? The best years of the US (1952-1970) were also the same years when the US had no globalism and high unionism. And extreme wealth disparity only took hold post Reagan globalism years to levels not seen since the 1920's.

Protectionism, high tax rates for the weslthy, and strong unions are good for the country and the middle class in general. You can argue otherwise but the proof is in our own history for everyone to see.

And keeping your crybabies happy is also more important than you realize. Because the crybabies are going to elect someone even more radical than Trump next time if their lives dont start to improve in the near future.

Those times were due to major exploitation.

Both of non-white Americans and of foreigners who either didn't have much industry or it had been smashed in WWII.

The former ended with the civil rights movement, the latter ended as the world recovered. Those boom times aren't coming back no matter how many times you kowtow to His Flatulence.
According to Warren Buffet, productivity has increased 6 fold since he was born in the 1930's. Even with the competition you mention, we should have at least been able to keep the lifestyle we had back then considering that we can now make 6 times more wealth with the same input. And yes, his Flatulence has already proven (what Obama or any of the rest of em would not even try to do) jobs can indeed come back to the US. Some of Obama's horses that got out of the barn have already been caught now. Maybe not all the jobs but the most important industries can still be saved. And I am seeing this happen as we speak because I work for US Steel.
 
In capitalism the worker has been artificially separated, legally separated, from his finished product.

His pay has no relation to the wealth his labor creates.

Human labor has been separated from the value it produces under capitalism.

The pay of wage slaves in capitalism is a market wage.

Another way to say market wage is to say LOWEST POSSIBLE WAGE.

Capitalism is about giving workers the lowest possible wage. And the fewest benefits.

That is what the masters desire.
 
In capitalism the worker has been artificially separated, legally separated, from his finished product.

His pay has no relation to the wealth his labor creates.

Human labor has been separated from the value it produces under capitalism.

The pay of wage slaves in capitalism is a market wage.

Another way to say market wage is to say LOWEST POSSIBLE WAGE.

Capitalism is about giving workers the lowest possible wage. And the fewest benefits.

That is what the masters desire.

I don't think that you fully understand what a market wage stands for. Let me send you a real world example. My company is nearly desperate for at least two more engineers. So, we've hired an HR firm to do a wage study for us. Our plan is to offer through recruiters that is 20% higher than market, more benefits, profit sharing, gains shares, and management opportunity. For the right employee, we'd offer equity. But we're prepared to pay substantially more if we need to. You might be surprised to hear that in my experience what drives most workers is pay and benefits - not equity in the company.
 
In capitalism the worker has been artificially separated, legally separated, from his finished product.

His pay has no relation to the wealth his labor creates.

Human labor has been separated from the value it produces under capitalism.

The pay of wage slaves in capitalism is a market wage.

Another way to say market wage is to say LOWEST POSSIBLE WAGE.

Capitalism is about giving workers the lowest possible wage. And the fewest benefits.

That is what the masters desire.

I don't think that you fully understand what a market wage stands for. Let me send you a real world example. My company is nearly desperate for at least two more engineers. So, we've hired an HR firm to do a wage study for us. Our plan is to offer through recruiters that is 20% higher than market, more benefits, profit sharing, gains shares, and management opportunity. For the right employee, we'd offer equity. But we're prepared to pay substantially more if we need to. You might be surprised to hear that in my experience what drives most workers is pay and benefits - not equity in the company.

There are a few skill sets where things can be reversed.

Major league pitchers.

But you have to be a rare rare individual to get this treatment.

It is what happens when a real negotiation takes place. And it is a negotiated wage, not a market wage.

The vast majority are paid the lowest possible wage. A market wage.

What unions did was give all workers negotiating power.

For that they have been illegally attacked and virtually destroyed.

If there was a union factory no matter the profits, if possible, it went overseas.
 
In capitalism the worker has been artificially separated, legally separated, from his finished product.

His pay has no relation to the wealth his labor creates.

Human labor has been separated from the value it produces under capitalism.

The pay of wage slaves in capitalism is a market wage.

Another way to say market wage is to say LOWEST POSSIBLE WAGE.

Capitalism is about giving workers the lowest possible wage. And the fewest benefits.

That is what the masters desire.

I don't think that you fully understand what a market wage stands for. Let me send you a real world example. My company is nearly desperate for at least two more engineers. So, we've hired an HR firm to do a wage study for us. Our plan is to offer through recruiters that is 20% higher than market, more benefits, profit sharing, gains shares, and management opportunity. For the right employee, we'd offer equity. But we're prepared to pay substantially more if we need to. You might be surprised to hear that in my experience what drives most workers is pay and benefits - not equity in the company.

There are a few skill sets where things can be reversed.

Major league pitchers.

But you have to be a rare rare individual to get this treatment.

It is what happens when a real negotiation takes place. And it is a negotiated wage, not a market wage.

The vast majority are paid the lowest possible wage. A market wage.

What unions did was give all workers negotiating power.

For that they have been illegally attacked and virtually destroyed.

If there was a union factory no matter the profits, if possible, it went overseas.

Agreed. Generally, even in Harry's example, remuneration is based on how easily someone can be replaced, not the value of the work they do.
 
But we're prepared to pay substantially more if we need to. You might be surprised to hear that in my experience what drives most workers is pay and benefits - not equity in the company.
It does not surprise me at all. In general people will NOT want to take risk. The average person is a big pussy that will do anything possible to avoid risk. Which is why most of us are not $ billionaires. It is very rare to find a risk taker like Trump.

It is also the primary reason there is still (and will always be) a pay gap between women and men. Men can accept more risk than women. You either sleep well or you eat well.
 
In general people will NOT want to take risk. The average person is a big pussy that will do anything possible to avoid risk. Which is why most of us are not $ billionaires. It is very rare to find a risk taker like Trump.

It is also the primary reason there is still (and will always be) a pay gap between women and men. Men can accept more risk than women. You either sleep well or you eat well.

Do you have a citation for that or did you just pull it out of your ass?
 
But we're prepared to pay substantially more if we need to. You might be surprised to hear that in my experience what drives most workers is pay and benefits - not equity in the company.
It does not surprise me at all. In general people will NOT want to take risk. The average person is a big pussy that will do anything possible to avoid risk. Which is why most of us are not $ billionaires. It is very rare to find a risk taker like Trump.

It is also the primary reason there is still (and will always be) a pay gap between women and men. Men can accept more risk than women. You either sleep well or you eat well.

People take risk working for anybody in capitalism.

The job could be gone next week. Their back could be gone next week.

The most vulnerable risk takers and those that are constantly risking great hardship don't count in capitalism.

Their risk is meaningless.
 
Lumpenproletariat, do you really think most of the population of the US is better off after the free trading days (post Reagan) than it was before that time? The best years of the US (1952-1970) were also the same years when the US had no globalism and high unionism. And extreme wealth disparity only took hold post Reagan globalism years to levels not seen since the 1920's.

Protectionism, high tax rates for the weslthy, and strong unions are good for the country and the middle class in general. You can argue otherwise but the proof is in our own history for everyone to see.

And keeping your crybabies happy is also more important than you realize. Because the crybabies are going to elect someone even more radical than Trump next time if their lives dont start to improve in the near future.

Those times were due to major exploitation.

Both of non-white Americans and of foreigners who either didn't have much industry or it had been smashed in WWII.

The former ended with the civil rights movement, the latter ended as the world recovered. Those boom times aren't coming back no matter how many times you kowtow to His Flatulence.
According to Warren Buffet, productivity has increased 6 fold since he was born in the 1930's. Even with the competition you mention, we should have at least been able to keep the lifestyle we had back then considering that we can now make 6 times more wealth with the same input. And yes, his Flatulence has already proven (what Obama or any of the rest of em would not even try to do) jobs can indeed come back to the US. Some of Obama's horses that got out of the barn have already been caught now. Maybe not all the jobs but the most important industries can still be saved. And I am seeing this happen as we speak because I work for US Steel.

And how do you think we can't keep the lifestyle of the 1930s?

Remember, you have to look at everyone, not just white males.

Also, you have the problem of apples-to-apples comparison. Healthcare was much, much cheaper then--but it did so much less, also. Your 1930s car (if you had one--there was roughly 1 car per 3 adults back then) would be a deathtrap by modern standards and wouldn't last very long, either. Your 1930s house had limited heat and no air conditioning.
 
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