How much did Christians hamper intellectual progress?

[credoconsolans]

When Rome was demoted from being the capital of the Roman empire, it soon drifted away from being in complete control of the emperor at Constantinople. Wars and internecine strife followed. Papyrus became hard to come by so scholarship stagnated. Without writing material, literacy dropped. Paper was invented in 600 CE by the Chinese and became important to Islam and helped create Islamic science by the nominally Islamic civilization, while paper was very expensive and available only in limited supplies to the West. Animal hide codexes were rare and very expenisve.

The dark ages, were a product of the near collapse of civilization in the West. Charlemagne was the first HRE emperor who tried whole heartedly to revive learning in the West.

It wasn't until 1200 CE that paper making was introduced in the West in Italy. Paper making only reached England in the early 1400's. Up to the time of Charlemagne, Europe was not united but was a hodge podge of smaller states often fighting each other.

The Dark Ages was a complex creation of several trends. Christianity does not actually deserve all the blame.

Um, not really accurate. Monasteries in the 4th century were churning out Christian literature and rewriting ancient literature. They had the funding to do this throughout the dark ages and they saved what they could use to support the church.

 

[credoconsolans]

The Christian emperors and local bishops started closing pagan temples and academies of learning, burning libraries and books, saving only what they thought they could use. We don't really know what the pagans might have written in the early years before the West became Christianized, because a lot of it has been lost or destroyed.

That's an excellent point. But, these Christian convert rulers were very often convertees of political reasons and were well aware of the value of the works. I think it's safe to assume that they understood which works were significant and took steps to protect them. Christians continued to be sort of pagan more than a thousand years on. Even longer in some parts.

I don't think the main threat to these works were Christians. It was lack of funding. Parchment desintigrates, if just left alone. It needs to be regularly copied. Monks did a stellar job of this. And considering what works have been allowed to survive, I don't get the impression that they were trying to destroy the pagan heritage. How the hell could a book like Ovid's Metamorphosis survive in that case? Every other page is blasphemy or some other abomination.

But good point. We have no way of knowing what has been lost. All the oral traditions for one. The Illiad and Odyssey is full of references to other stories, that you just sort of have to know. We have no idea what any of these are in their full form. Only these two survived. Greek Paganism was predominantly oral. Some of them had strong ideas about that thoughts were corrupted when written down.

Scholars like Erhman and Carrier say we DO know a lot of what's been lost because ancient Christian writers refer to these works that no longer exist. We no longer have early pagan critiques of Christianity because they were destroyed. The only reason we know of them is because Christian rebuttals to their arguments were what was saved, not the original works. Yes, monks did a great job of saving material by re-writing it, but they also had an agenda. They were told which ones to save. Obviously, most local bishops, being company men, would toe the line in only saving those works which would ensure their jobs. I'm sure there were some sophisticates that saved others, for personal or literary or philosophical reasons, which is why we have them, but not all of them did.

 

[Random Person]

You don't seem to get it. What progress could they have made? Making intellectual progress, at the very minimum requires a brain. They didn't even one. Greek paganism was utterly and completely obliterated. The only place paganism survived (in the world) was Russia. And that is a paganism more akin to what the Vikings believed. That's a different type of paganism. They're more into avenging blood feuds than musing about the universe.

Mediterranean style paganism were completely wiped off the face of the Earth.

And that we know of.

The Christian emperors and local bishops started closing pagan temples and academies of learning, burning libraries and books, saving only what they thought they could use. We don't really know what the pagans might have written in the early years before the West became Christianized, because a lot of it has been lost or destroyed.

So to try to conclude the pagans did not contribute much in the intellectual sphere in the last 2000 years is moving in the direction of an argument from silence.

We know the names and work of non-Christian intellectuals and scholars all throughout history, but no Pagans.

 

[Sarpedon]

Another thread reminded me of another way Christianity hampers the process of medicine: Every single advance seems to be denounced as an abomination or violation of God's will. Anesthesia, vaccinations, IVF, organ transplants, blood transfusions, etc.

 

[credoconsolans]

And that we know of.

The Christian emperors and local bishops started closing pagan temples and academies of learning, burning libraries and books, saving only what they thought they could use. We don't really know what the pagans might have written in the early years before the West became Christianized, because a lot of it has been lost or destroyed.

So to try to conclude the pagans did not contribute much in the intellectual sphere in the last 2000 years is moving in the direction of an argument from silence.

We know the names and work of non-Christian intellectuals and scholars all throughout history, but no Pagans.

Hypatia

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Another thread reminded me of another way Christianity hampers the process of medicine: Every single advance seems to be denounced as an abomination or violation of God's will. Anesthesia, vaccinations, IVF, organ transplants, blood transfusions, etc.

Medicine
Astronomy
Social advances such as women's rights

The Christian church hampered all of that.

 

[OLDMAN]

I really don't think they are finished with the task....

 

[credoconsolans]

I really don't think they are finished with the task....

Nope, they are not.

Any social advancement, the church is always against it.

 

[barbos]

And the Gallileo Gallilei thing was politics. They knew the world was round before and after. Rich people had access to good information and don't seem to have been prevented in gaining access to it.

Small correction, it was not about roundness of Earth (which was accepted fact) it was about helio-centric versus earth-centric.
And yes it was about politics, church critters were not stupid they understood that Gallileo Gallilei had a point but they were unhappy about being embarrassed.