How serious is the problem of undocumented immigration?

[PyramidHead]

I don't mean to ask how widespread the problem is, but how severe the effect is. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being California's ban on free plastic bags and 10 being corruption in all offices of political power, how big of a deal should we make about illegal immigration, and why?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd say a 1. That's mainly because it's 23.5 months until the next US election. As that gets closer, the severity of the effect of illegal immigration ramps up to an 87.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's probably somewhere around a -3. If someone wants to work and live here, they can't not participate in our economy, consume our services, do jobs, pay rent and taxes, buy food, etc. and as a bonus they can't get welfare. Then they have kids who do all those same things, but are American. It strengthens demand within the economy and balances the workforce. The only people I see with any complaint regarding immigration are the ultra-nationalists, and the problems they cite result from casting the immigrants out into insular and segregated communities.

 

[Sarpedon]

1. It is an utterly unimportant political football, which, when the surface is scratched, is clearly motivated by racism. The only problems there are lost tax, lack of safety regulations, low wages, and other exploitative practices. It is the fear of deportation that causes all of it, and all of these things could be cured by a more permissive and less vindicative immigration system. Like everything in right wing politics, it is a distraction from the real, and only priority the GOP has; further enriching and empowering the rich at the expense of everyone else. The rich benefit from the crusade against the immigrant in two ways: one as a distraction, and two, by creating the circumstances where these people can be exploited without any legal recourse.

 

[PyramidHead]

It's probably somewhere around a -3. If someone wants to work and live here, they can't not participate in our economy, consume our services, do jobs, pay rent and taxes, buy food, etc. and as a bonus they can't get welfare. Then they have kids who do all those same things, but are American. It strengthens demand within the economy and balances the workforce. The only people I see with any complaint regarding immigration are the ultra-nationalists, and the problems they cite result from casting the immigrants out into insular and segregated communities.

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

 

[PyramidHead]

1. It is an utterly unimportant political football, which, when the surface is scratched, is clearly motivated by racism. The only problems there are lost tax,

Sorry to cut you off. How much revenue is actually lost, if as Jarhyn says, undocumented immigrants are not welfare recipients? I'm probably preaching to the choir, but immigrants pay many types of taxes, just not those that require proof of citizenship; appropriately, they reap many societal benefits, just not those that require proof of citizenship. I honestly don't know whether the amount they would have paid in taxes as citizens is higher or lower than what they would've gotten in welfare as citizens. Anybody have any statistics?

 

[untermensche]

The idea of "belonging" to a nation is a legal fiction.

That people take it seriously shows a real defect with humans.

But the people who come into this country beyond the narrow constraints made up by some blowhard apes do a lot of the labor people born here won't do.

Getting work done that needs doing is usually seen as a good thing.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

1.2

 

[arkirk]

1. It is an utterly unimportant political football, which, when the surface is scratched, is clearly motivated by racism. The only problems there are lost tax, lack of safety regulations, low wages, and other exploitative practices. It is the fear of deportation that causes all of it, and all of these things could be cured by a more permissive and less vindicative immigration system. Like everything in right wing politics, it is a distraction from the real, and only priority the GOP has; further enriching and empowering the rich at the expense of everyone else. The rich benefit from the crusade against the immigrant in two ways: one as a distraction, and two, by creating the circumstances where these people can be exploited without any legal recourse.

It depend who you are how important the issue is. If you are one of these illegal immigrants, your life is constantly living on the sneakl. If you are an average american, the aggregate effect of these immigrants comes as food on your table you can afford to buy. You hit the nail on the head as far as the 1% are concerned. These people are denied all the benefits of living in a civilized society and locked into a precarious living condition for which they can provide for themselves no remedy. For the 1%, they are an expendable commodity and expend them they do...use them up then toss them out...single use and disposable. We ought to give them all free green cards and liberalize the citizenship requirements so they can become citizens if they want. We actually are making life harder for all the underclass in America so citizenship itself has to have some human rights meaning restored to it. This erosion of human rights in America is in no way the fault of illegal immigrants. They are here because their homelands are part of a world wide system of multi-national corporate corruption. These people are the victims of multi-national corporate empire. They are only a symptom of the real problem and I feel we all know in our hearts this is so. Unfortunately for them, their fate is rather precarious and they are suffering from our insensitivity to human pathos of our greediest societal sector...the ones who need to be outlawed.

 

[Sarpedon]

Sorry to cut you off. How much revenue is actually lost, if as Jarhyn says, undocumented immigrants are not welfare recipients? I'm probably preaching to the choir, but immigrants pay many types of taxes, just not those that require proof of citizenship; appropriately, they reap many societal benefits, just not those that require proof of citizenship. I honestly don't know whether the amount they would have paid in taxes as citizens is higher or lower than what they would've gotten in welfare as citizens. Anybody have any statistics?

Its impossible to calculate because of the exploitation I mention. They are not paid fairly, and so their income is artificially low. Probably someone with their income would be on welfare. If, however, they were paid fairly, because they had legal status, their income would be higher. How much higher? Who knows? Because of the legal problems, there can be no accurate records.

I believe there are also tax benefits to being a small business. By employing undocumented immigrants, I bet a business can pretend to have an artificially low headcount, and achieve some benefit that way. Of course, wages paid to legitimate employees is deductable, so there's a limit to the utility of that. But I wager there is a sweet spot somewhere in there, and businesses exploit it, because it is businesses that make the rules to begin with.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's probably somewhere around a -3. If someone wants to work and live here, they can't not participate in our economy, consume our services, do jobs, pay rent and taxes, buy food, etc. and as a bonus they can't get welfare. Then they have kids who do all those same things, but are American. It strengthens demand within the economy and balances the workforce. The only people I see with any complaint regarding immigration are the ultra-nationalists, and the problems they cite result from casting the immigrants out into insular and segregated communities.

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

Back when I was a dumb young republican, it was mostly just an argument from law and a misunderstanding about the nature relationships between jobs, population, and demand. "they take the jobs (that most people do t want)", "they are from somewhere else (that is largely the same as here, but with more corruption that they don't want to be exposed to)", "they are dumb (because they haven't had access to educational services)", "they are [pagan/rural/weird/unpatriotic](despite nobody caring when it's someone not 'illegal')".

Who cares if they consume education? It means less uneducated ignorant people in third world shitholes. As if uneducated neighbors is better than them moving in, helping with the housework and being educated!

 

[TV and credit cards]

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

Not much meat on the bone here.

I too believe this would fall into a negative number. Living sixteen years in San Diego, it is common knowledge there if your business employs mostly manual labor and you want that business to not only survive but thrive, hire illegals if you can. I've heard the comment from a few different friends with small businesses, if you hire Americans, there are too many no-shows, showing up late, or showing up under the influence of the drug of choice.
In my neighborhood there, you would typically see the same young men walking around hoping for a day's work. They wouldn't ask. Everyone knew what they were there for. There was one older guy who walked the neighborhood. He only had one arm. A teenage girl walked with him.

 

[Jayjay]

The immigrants by and far are not a problem, the fact that they are illegal is the problem.

And if they were not illegal and there was unrestricted immigration, that would be a problem also, at least in the beginning.

For those who've been in the country for years and decades, amnesty is the best option. For those who just arrived recently or are still trying to get in, there is sense to just not let the in the first place. But having a prospect of an amnesty is hardly a disincentive, so that's another contradiction. Maybe americans should just start moving en masse to Mexico and employ the gardeners there? Problem solved.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'll go with 3. It's not the illegal presence per se, but rather because you have a large number of people forced to operate outside the legal system. That causes problems.

 

[maxparrish]

It's probably somewhere around a -3. If someone wants to work and live here, they can't not participate in our economy, consume our services, do jobs, pay rent and taxes, buy food, etc. and as a bonus they can't get welfare. Then they have kids who do all those same things, but are American. It strengthens demand within the economy and balances the workforce. The only people I see with any complaint regarding immigration are the ultra-nationalists, and the problems they cite result from casting the immigrants out into insular and segregated communities.

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

The same thing that is wrong with legal immigrants, they generally harm (rather than improve) the well-being of resident Americans. Immigration, especially illegal immigration, is not based on knowledge, skills, or natural ability. It is based on family connection, illegal entry, and arbitrary 'needs' for the business community to hire the cheapest possible labor.

1. They lower wages for the least skilled Americans, and dilute opportunity for their apprenticeship.
2. They increase the violent crime rate.
3. They use an ordinate amount of public welfare.
4. They have to be subsidized by American citizens, paying a good part of their medical, housing, and education.
5. They generally do not pay for themselves in economic surplus, and certainty do not contribute a surplus.
6. They create major externality costs in environmental degradation, increased urbanization, demand for water in drought stricken states, crowding of parks, beaches, etc.

If you think there is a shortage of freeway crowding, ghettos, Mexican restaurants, dry wallers, and house-keepers then perhaps illegal immigration is a good thing. If you are a working class American or urban American minority it is a bad thing.

The problem is an 11.

 

[dismal]

And if they were not illegal and there was unrestricted immigration, that would be a problem also, at least in the beginning.

And what problem would that be?

And, assuming immigration laws are designed to prevent that problem why aren't illegal immigrants causing it?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

The same thing that is wrong with legal immigrants, they generally harm (rather than improve) the well-being of resident Americans. Immigration, especially illegal immigration, is not based on knowledge, skills, or natural ability. It is based on family connection, illegal entry, and arbitrary 'needs' for the business community to hire the cheapest possible labor.

1. They lower wages for the least skilled Americans, and dilute opportunity for their apprenticeship.

Lower than minimum wage?

2. They increase the violent crime rate.

But not the non-violent crime rate?

4. They have to be subsidized by American citizens, paying a good part of their medical, housing, and education.

In Pt. 1 you indicated that they lower wages, doesn't that mean they perform work at subsidized rates?

6. They create major externality costs in environmental degradation, increased urbanization, demand for water in drought stricken states, crowding of parks, beaches, etc.

Population growth in general does that.

If you think there is a shortage of freeway crowding, ghettos, Mexican restaurants, dry wallers, and house-keepers then perhaps illegal immigration is a good thing. If you are a working class American or urban American minority it is a bad thing.

The problem is an 11.

What would an Ebola pandemic be if the current illegal immigration is an 11? What would WWII rate at?

 

[Sarpedon]

3. They use an ordinate amount of public welfare.

Do you know what 'ordinate' means?

The same thing that is wrong with legal immigrants

Are you saying that all immigration is a bad thing? Or are some immigrants better than others? Which ones? Or was there some point in history when it was good, and then it became bad? When was this?

I'm an american with a masters degree, so I guess I am less worried about competing with illegal immigrants. However, I'm concerned about your expression of dislike for legal immigrants. I have a colleague who is a legal immigrant, who is,like me, a well educated and skilled professional. While technically his presence may represent some competition to me, but so do other college graduates, and you don't see me not donating money to my old college for that reason. I just don't feel my colleague is a threat to me. Also, I note that he has not increased the crime rate, used welfare, or any of the other horrible things you blame immigrants for.

I have a very hard time taking your objections seriously. I simply do not believe that they are honest. I think they are a facade.

It puzzles me that someone who normally advocates that the free market should be given free reign to decide things without government interference should be against the free movement of labor from places where it is plentiful to places where it is scarce and more valuable, and appeal to government to restrict it. Why should this issue be different?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

2. They increase the violent crime rate.

I'd like some stats on this.

3. They use an ordinate amount of public welfare.

I'd also like to see some stats on this as well. I don't know enough about it, so it'd be nice to know.

6. They create major externality costs in environmental degradation, increased urbanization, demand for water in drought stricken states, crowding of parks, beaches, etc.

Also the stats for this one including parks and beaches, because this sounds like old fashioned "we don't want the brown people on our lily white beach".

 

[Sabine Grant]

We agree. I am curious to hear from people on the other end of the spectrum about this.

Specifically, what is wrong with being an illegal immigrant other than the fact that it violates a law?

The same thing that is wrong with legal immigrants, they generally harm (rather than improve) the well-being of resident Americans. Immigration, especially illegal immigration, is not based on knowledge, skills, or natural ability. It is based on family connection, illegal entry, and arbitrary 'needs' for the business community to hire the cheapest possible labor.

Since you portrayed LEGAL immigrants as "the same thing which is wrong" and they allegedly "generally harm (rather than improve) the well being of resident Americans", let's see if the legal immigrant have been since 1983 indeed fits the profile below :

1. They lower wages for the least skilled Americans, and dilute opportunity for their apprenticeship.

Nope. I do not lower wages for the least skilled Americans and dilute opportunity for their apprenticeship. Any "resident American" has as much opportunity as I have to be a certified health care worker, as much opportunity as I have to comply with the mandated by the Board of Nursing education and training and as much opportunity as I have to contribute to the well being and welfare of home bound disabled and elderly patients or "resident Americans".

2. They increase the violent crime rate.

Can you provide documentation supporting your claim applied to LEGAL immigrants since you equated legal immigrants to illegal immigrants.

3. They use an ordinate amount of public welfare.

I have never used any amount of welfare as a legal immigrant.

4. They have to be subsidized by American citizens, paying a good part of their medical, housing, and education.

As a legal immigrant, I have been paying my mortgage, I pay my medical bills, and as far as education is concerned, no one but me pays for all the mandated Continuous Education Units or Credits I am required to update yearly. And I were to decide to go back to College to complete my current degree or better worded add to my French college degree, I would be needing a student loan like many "resident Americans" do.

5. They generally do not pay for themselves in economic surplus, and certainty do not contribute a surplus.

My employer would disagree with you in view of how they are able to retain clients/patients due to the excellency of the home health care services I provide. Which in return adds to their profit marge.

6. They create major externality costs in environmental degradation, increased urbanization, demand for water in drought stricken states, crowding of parks, beaches, etc.

I am not aware of the population of French expats and legal immigrants residents in Florida creating such issues. Since I am also part of that category of legal immigrants.

I am specifically addressing here your claim that legal immigrants " generally harm (rather than improve) the well-being of resident Americans."

Considering also that in the course of the several years I have been a legal immigrant,legal resident and legal part of the working force in this nation, I have encountered numerous legal immigrants of various origins, nationalities and ethnicity who do NOT " generally harm (rather than improve) the well-being of resident-Americans". None of them fitting the profile you have established above.

As to your depiction of illegal immigrants and based on your previously observed comments through FRDB, they strike me as motivated by a xenophobic mentality where the foreigner and culturally different person from Anglo Saxon origins can only be a nuisance and an inferior individual.