How to defeat ISIS.

[4321lynx]

Is that the 1970’s Saddam, whom we hated, so we aided the Kurds in their violent rebellion?
Or is that the 1980’s Saddam, whom we befriended as he gassed his way around the Kurds and Iranians?
Or is that the 1990’s pariah Saddam who dared to attack/invade another nation without a UN mandate?

The war mongers always have to have a Saddam to keep the flow of war materiel moving off the assembly line. He was just a period piece. The format Obama is using is exactly the same for starting up this adventure as all the other ones. Flags flying, and a serious looking character (our current leader) telling us we are not alone and have a coalition of the willing to go after evil. We will pump more war materiel into these countries and that will power the next generation of evil....The Grand Caliphate of Evil for the next Republican President to oppose...with troops on the ground.

We have been through countless cycles of this repeating phenomenon. The military industrial complex makes money their way and the oil people just wait for the job to get done, while they power the military industrial complex. This is OLD STUFF. Saudi Arabia, when it falls apart will probably be when we learn this approach is wrong and I fear that will be too late. We need to stop being a party to this madness and tend to our own affairs. If we are not there bombing and droning and scheming, there will be a period of disorder in the middle east, but the weaponry will dry up and so will the Islamic passion. They feed each other...weapons and Islamic passion.

Agreed, if you add existence of Israel to the weapons and passion. Its creation brought about the Islamic passion of various degrees and flavours. Oil or no oil that passion will continue as long as Israel continues. Everybody in the Middle East knows that.

 

[arkirk]

The war mongers always have to have a Saddam to keep the flow of war materiel moving off the assembly line. He was just a period piece. The format Obama is using is exactly the same for starting up this adventure as all the other ones. Flags flying, and a serious looking character (our current leader) telling us we are not alone and have a coalition of the willing to go after evil. We will pump more war materiel into these countries and that will power the next generation of evil....The Grand Caliphate of Evil for the next Republican President to oppose...with troops on the ground.

We have been through countless cycles of this repeating phenomenon. The military industrial complex makes money their way and the oil people just wait for the job to get done, while they power the military industrial complex. This is OLD STUFF. Saudi Arabia, when it falls apart will probably be when we learn this approach is wrong and I fear that will be too late. We need to stop being a party to this madness and tend to our own affairs. If we are not there bombing and droning and scheming, there will be a period of disorder in the middle east, but the weaponry will dry up and so will the Islamic passion. They feed each other...weapons and Islamic passion.

Agreed, if you add existence of Israel to the weapons and passion. Its creation brought about the Islamic passion of various degrees and flavours. Oil or no oil that passion will continue as long as Israel continues. Everybody in the Middle East knows that.

Maybe...if Israel keeps doing what it is doing, acting as it is acting, etc. They would learn really quick how to behave if they were denied reloads for their F-16's. If it were dictated to them they could not go on killing sprees in Gaza it is possible for a whole country to change when it has to and if it has leadership that is intelligent enough to recognize the need. That recently happened in Russia. It perhaps needs to happen there again. It would help if it would happen here in America. A rising standard of living usually saps the impetus of passion for revenge and blood lust. Hope for the future saps the impulse to be a suicide bomber or go on a suicide mission. The human mind should be capable of putting these horrible drives to rest, but there has to be conditions that favor doing that. That is not more bombs and guns, but more schools and better food and housing and sense of community. We just seem to send the wrong things to the middle east all the time and it just stews like a witch's cauldron.

Regarding Israel, Netanuahu needs to be informed that he and his whole country are the tail. The tail should not be wagging the dog.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Maybe...if Israel keeps doing what it is doing, acting as it is acting, etc. They would learn really quick how to behave if they were denied reloads for their F-16's.

You still think there would be peace if Israel couldn't attack. The reality is that if you were to remove all the weapons you could you would find out how effective their final deterrent is. While you might succeed in getting Israel overrun you wouldn't get their boomers before they launch.

Nuclear diplomacy 101: Do not push a nuclear power into a corner.

You seem to think pushing Israel into a corner is a good idea.

 

[funinspace]

Wow, the grand anti-ISIS coalition is falling away faster than Kerry can fly around the globe. Now Turkey will only allow logistics to be run from within their country, and will only provide humanitarian aid. France and Germany already won’t bomb Syria, being a tad more finicky about bombing countries w/o UN support. Boy Robin isn’t quite sure, yes…no…I’m mean maybe.

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-arrives-ankara-seeking-support-anti-coalition-101824181.html

 

[arkirk]

Maybe...if Israel keeps doing what it is doing, acting as it is acting, etc. They would learn really quick how to behave if they were denied reloads for their F-16's.

You still think there would be peace if Israel couldn't attack. The reality is that if you were to remove all the weapons you could you would find out how effective their final deterrent is. While you might succeed in getting Israel overrun you wouldn't get their boomers before they launch.

Nuclear diplomacy 101: Do not push a nuclear power into a corner.

You seem to think pushing Israel into a corner is a good idea.

Israel is not a real thing. The IDF is. The IDF and its leadership is what has forced Israel into the corner it now occupies. The problem is that this country is the product of ethnic cleansing and occupation. It is expansionist and uses the IDF to enforce its will on the area.

There is little difference between Netanyahu and Hitler and nuclear weapons in his hand is about as bad as it would have been if Hitler had them. The U.N. needs to address non-proliferation in Israel. Contrary to what Netanyahu says, there is nothing at all "ambiguous" about Israel's nuclear armaments. The only thing protecting the Palestinians from nuclear attack is the fallout from nuclear weapons would undoubtedly adversely affect Israel.

If the Palestinians and the U.N. could build civic and housing structures and not have them bombed, perhaps there could be peace eventually. I think it is odd that Loren is concerned that somehow I wish to "push Israel into a corner." What exactly does he think Gaza is for the Palestinians? The Israelis need to recognize Palestinian rights to exist and also that they are human beings too.

We had Obomba getting really nasty sounding about destroying ISEL on the basis of two beheadings. Last month in Saudi Arabia there were 30 such beheadings and nobody batted an eye. He is sounding more and more like Netanyahu every day. When he was elected, people were expecting he would be the "adult in the room." It has not worked out that way.

The only thing of which I feel we can be sure is that if we continue in the ME as we have done so far, we will be on track for continued conflict and continued social decay in America as well. Martin Luther King said it best in his Vietnam speech, "We must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways." We didn't and here we are today and we have Loren and others saying we much push on. There is a fundamental difference between the humanist position on these matters and that of the war hawks.

For some, there seems something comforting in knowing we are killing "enemies." We never seem to take the time to analyze why we have these enemies and we also totally discount out of hand any possibility of changing this relationship. I think that is the gist of King's message...and mine as well....sans Jesus.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still think there would be peace if Israel couldn't attack. The reality is that if you were to remove all the weapons you could you would find out how effective their final deterrent is. While you might succeed in getting Israel overrun you wouldn't get their boomers before they launch.

Nuclear diplomacy 101: Do not push a nuclear power into a corner.

You seem to think pushing Israel into a corner is a good idea.

Israel is not a real thing. The IDF is. The IDF and its leadership is what has forced Israel into the corner it now occupies. The problem is that this country is the product of ethnic cleansing and occupation. It is expansionist and uses the IDF to enforce its will on the area.

Israel is not real? What in the world do you actually mean?

There is little difference between Netanyahu and Hitler and nuclear weapons in his hand is about as bad as it would have been if Hitler had them. The U.N. needs to address non-proliferation in Israel. Contrary to what Netanyahu says, there is nothing at all "ambiguous" about Israel's nuclear armaments. The only thing protecting the Palestinians from nuclear attack is the fallout from nuclear weapons would undoubtedly adversely affect Israel.

You're very out of touch with reality.

Israel's nukes have nothing to do with the Palestinians. They're a deterrent to keep the Arabs from trying to wipe them out once again. Note how the invasions stopped when Israel got nukes.

And you're still not addressing the issue of not pushing a nuclear power into a corner.

If the Palestinians and the U.N. could build civic and housing structures and not have them bombed, perhaps there could be peace eventually. I think it is odd that Loren is concerned that somehow I wish to "push Israel into a corner." What exactly does he think Gaza is for the Palestinians? The Israelis need to recognize Palestinian rights to exist and also that they are human beings too.

It's simple enough to build civic structures and not have them bombed--don't use them as command centers, don't attack Israel from them. What you are missing is that Hamas wants civic structures bombed--they want the Palestinians to have no options but supporting Hamas.

 

[untermensche]

Israel's nukes have nothing to do with the Palestinians. They're a deterrent to keep the Arabs from trying to wipe them out once again. Note how the invasions stopped when Israel got nukes.

So all your nonsense that the oppression of the Palestinians is some continuation of some past war is just that, nonsense.

Israel's nukes ended the threat of war against Israel.

The oppression of the Palestinians is simply sadism.

 

[arkirk]

Israel is not a real thing. The IDF is. The IDF and its leadership is what has forced Israel into the corner it now occupies. The problem is that this country is the product of ethnic cleansing and occupation. It is expansionist and uses the IDF to enforce its will on the area.

Israel is not real? What in the world do you actually mean?

There is little difference between Netanyahu and Hitler and nuclear weapons in his hand is about as bad as it would have been if Hitler had them. The U.N. needs to address non-proliferation in Israel. Contrary to what Netanyahu says, there is nothing at all "ambiguous" about Israel's nuclear armaments. The only thing protecting the Palestinians from nuclear attack is the fallout from nuclear weapons would undoubtedly adversely affect Israel.

You're very out of touch with reality.

Israel's nukes have nothing to do with the Palestinians. They're a deterrent to keep the Arabs from trying to wipe them out once again. Note how the invasions stopped when Israel got nukes.

And you're still not addressing the issue of not pushing a nuclear power into a corner.

If the Palestinians and the U.N. could build civic and housing structures and not have them bombed, perhaps there could be peace eventually. I think it is odd that Loren is concerned that somehow I wish to "push Israel into a corner." What exactly does he think Gaza is for the Palestinians? The Israelis need to recognize Palestinian rights to exist and also that they are human beings too.

It's simple enough to build civic structures and not have them bombed--don't use them as command centers, don't attack Israel from them. What you are missing is that Hamas wants civic structures bombed--they want the Palestinians to have no options but supporting Hamas.

There you go again, Loren...telling us what Hamas "wants." That is nothing but wild speculation and fear mongering. Israel is not a unified country. There are different levels of citizenship in the country and different levels of human rights for various segments of Israeli society...within the boundaries of Israel. Israel does not think with ONE MIND. The same is true of the Palestinians. Because of this, and the need for the leadership to keep the population in line, Israel has become a security state, dominated by its security forces which are all militarized. It would be a good idea to realize this, and stop talking about "Israel" like it is something with but a single train of thought and a unified population. The security forces try to keep it looking that way and they apparently have convinced Loren, all the way out there in Nevada.

Israel has not only taken Arab lands. It has actually convinced Loren that before the nation of Israel, there were no Palestinians. He apparently accepts an "empty land" notion as the status of the country when Israel was plundered from Arabs in the area and Christened by the United Nations in its new National Clothing, naked as the proverbial emperor, naked to the world in all its aggression. I suspect the Palestinian children discover this just before they die.

According to Netanyahu, Israel will "continue to maintain ambiguity regarding its nuclear capacity." He said as much the last time he spoke at the U.N.

Loren here also denies what Martin Luther King said and still wants to push on...to keep killing...to keep our military industrial complex humming making bombs and other weapons of mass destruction. He flatly denies that anybody can ever change the direction of their actions. This is the great lie. This is the dehumanization of humanity in spades.

It is obvious he believes we must stay continually at war somewhere in the world. His world would not be complete without a war somewhere. The proof of this statement is that I have repeatedly asked Loren if he might suggest actions we could take to promote peace with the absolute minimum of human destruction. He just says...impossible. He also uses the language of superior authority when he says...."You're out of touch with reality." Loren must learn neither he nor anybody else has a lock on dictating what "reality" must be.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's nukes have nothing to do with the Palestinians. They're a deterrent to keep the Arabs from trying to wipe them out once again. Note how the invasions stopped when Israel got nukes.

So all your nonsense that the oppression of the Palestinians is some continuation of some past war is just that, nonsense.

Israel's nukes ended the threat of war against Israel.

The oppression of the Palestinians is simply sadism.

Israel's nukes basically ended the risk of invasion. Their attackers simply shifted to funding terrorism instead. The war is ongoing.

 

[arkirk]

So all your nonsense that the oppression of the Palestinians is some continuation of some past war is just that, nonsense.

Israel's nukes ended the threat of war against Israel.

The oppression of the Palestinians is simply sadism.

Israel's nukes basically ended the risk of invasion. Their attackers simply shifted to funding terrorism instead. The war is ongoing.

Israel's nukes did no such thing. They cannot Nuke Palestine without poisoning themselves. Israel's nuke are a clear and present danger to Israel as well as its neighbors. Think about this a bit. They make one miscalculation with their Nukes and it is all over for a lot of people, including them. They live in the same world as we do. The next nation that unleashes Nukes on an enemy will have the entire world as its enemy. That is the nature of the nuclear threat. It also makes it completely understandable why one might assume Iran might just want nukes for their own use.

Loren's logic needs a reset.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's nukes basically ended the risk of invasion. Their attackers simply shifted to funding terrorism instead. The war is ongoing.

Israel's nukes did no such thing. They cannot Nuke Palestine without poisoning themselves. Israel's nuke are a clear and present danger to Israel as well as its neighbors. Think about this a bit. They make one miscalculation with their Nukes and it is all over for a lot of people, including them. They live in the same world as we do. The next nation that unleashes Nukes on an enemy will have the entire world as its enemy. That is the nature of the nuclear threat. It also makes it completely understandable why one might assume Iran might just want nukes for their own use.

Loren's logic needs a reset.

Do you not understand? The nukes aren't about the Palestinians, they're about the other Arab nations that have attacked repeatedly. Nukes would be total overkill against the Palestinians, they wouldn't drop one even if there were no repercussions.

You're so fixated on Israel = evil that you're not paying attention to reality.

 

[arkirk]

Israel's nukes did no such thing. They cannot Nuke Palestine without poisoning themselves. Israel's nuke are a clear and present danger to Israel as well as its neighbors. Think about this a bit. They make one miscalculation with their Nukes and it is all over for a lot of people, including them. They live in the same world as we do. The next nation that unleashes Nukes on an enemy will have the entire world as its enemy. That is the nature of the nuclear threat. It also makes it completely understandable why one might assume Iran might just want nukes for their own use.

Loren's logic needs a reset.

Do you not understand? The nukes aren't about the Palestinians, they're about the other Arab nations that have attacked repeatedly. Nukes would be total overkill against the Palestinians, they wouldn't drop one even if there were no repercussions.

You're so fixated on Israel = evil that you're not paying attention to reality.

Try not to psychoanalyze me please. You don't seem to be equipped to do that. As for the "reality" IDF, not "Israel" recently attacked Gaza and murdered hundreds of women and children. The justification you give for this, if it were applied to Hamas would easily also allow their killings....just collateral damage. You sir are in no way qualified to define reality to me, so please stop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you not understand? The nukes aren't about the Palestinians, they're about the other Arab nations that have attacked repeatedly. Nukes would be total overkill against the Palestinians, they wouldn't drop one even if there were no repercussions.

You're so fixated on Israel = evil that you're not paying attention to reality.

Try not to psychoanalyze me please. You don't seem to be equipped to do that. As for the "reality" IDF, not "Israel" recently attacked Gaza and murdered hundreds of women and children. The justification you give for this, if it were applied to Hamas would easily also allow their killings....just collateral damage. You sir are in no way qualified to define reality to me, so please stop.

The people of Israel favor the IDF attacking Hamas. They're tired of the rockets.

 

[4321lynx]

Israel's nukes basically ended the risk of invasion. Their attackers simply shifted to funding terrorism instead. The war is ongoing.

Israel's nukes did no such thing. They cannot Nuke Palestine without poisoning themselves. Israel's nuke are a clear and present danger to Israel as well as its neighbors. Think about this a bit. They make one miscalculation with their Nukes and it is all over for a lot of people, including them. They live in the same world as we do. The next nation that unleashes Nukes on an enemy will have the entire world as its enemy. That is the nature of the nuclear threat. It also makes it completely understandable why one might assume Iran might just want nukes for their own use.

Loren's logic needs a reset.

It's called the Samson Option.

For an explanation, those that need it should read the Bible starting about "...eyeless in Gaza, at the mill with slaves..." if memory serves me right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's nukes did no such thing. They cannot Nuke Palestine without poisoning themselves. Israel's nuke are a clear and present danger to Israel as well as its neighbors. Think about this a bit. They make one miscalculation with their Nukes and it is all over for a lot of people, including them. They live in the same world as we do. The next nation that unleashes Nukes on an enemy will have the entire world as its enemy. That is the nature of the nuclear threat. It also makes it completely understandable why one might assume Iran might just want nukes for their own use.

Loren's logic needs a reset.

It's called the Samson Option.

For an explanation, those that need it should read the Bible starting about "...eyeless in Gaza, at the mill with slaves..." if memory serves me right.

The name seems familiar.

Simple evidence of this: Israel has boomers. Boomers are about the ultimate in second-strike weapons. Nobody builds boomers to attack, they build them as a deterrent.

 

[arkirk]

It's called the Samson Option.

For an explanation, those that need it should read the Bible starting about "...eyeless in Gaza, at the mill with slaves..." if memory serves me right.

The name seems familiar.

Simple evidence of this: Israel has boomers. Boomers are about the ultimate in second-strike weapons. Nobody builds boomers to attack, they build them as a deterrent.

They built them in contravention of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty and in rogue fashion they refuse to sign it and refuse inspection. That ought to be sanction time for them. I don't buy Israeli goods. Of course most of them are not the type of things I would care to buy anyway.

Why do you use such silly language to describe nuclear weapons? Boomers are children of the baby boom. Israel will always be a first striker. They continue to kill women and children. The IDF is the absolute ultimate in outright arrogance. They bomb people whenever they want, then shake their "boomers" at their angry neighbors. Really Loren, you should give up your defense of these indefensible murderers and join the BDS movement.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The name seems familiar.

Simple evidence of this: Israel has boomers. Boomers are about the ultimate in second-strike weapons. Nobody builds boomers to attack, they build them as a deterrent.

They built them in contravention of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty and in rogue fashion they refuse to sign it and refuse inspection. That ought to be sanction time for them. I don't buy Israeli goods. Of course most of them are not the type of things I would care to buy anyway.

Reality check: Israel didn't sign the NPT, they aren't obligated to honor it.

Iran, however, did sign. That's why we are upset about Iran's bomb program but not Israel's.

Why do you use such silly language to describe nuclear weapons? Boomers are children of the baby boom. Israel will always be a first striker. They continue to kill women and children. The IDF is the absolute ultimate in outright arrogance. They bomb people whenever they want, then shake their "boomers" at their angry neighbors. Really Loren, you should give up your defense of these indefensible murderers and join the BDS movement.

And you don't get to redefine reality because you don't like it.

Boomer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_missile_submarine#Terminology

And they are second-strike weapons. For a first strike weapon there's no reason for an expensive carrier vehicle.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If the premise is that somehow, someday, ISIS might actually potentially pose a threat to the US, why are we spending so much time discussing Israel?