Humans are "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

[Lion IRC]

Speak for yourself.
You might have good reason to think that. But please speak for yourself. Or should I say 'yourselves' ? (Lemme check who clicked 'like' on your post.)

I strongly disagree that humans are "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

You strongly disagree? Seriously?

Have you ever read world history?
Christians launched the crusades. The genocide of the Americas. The Holocaust.

It was usually Christians who worshipped and believed in the Jesus that they were taught to believe in.

But Christians did!

Huge crimes against humanity based on church teachings and scriptures.

You mean like asserting that we are very inclined towards mistakes, delusion, illusion, stupidity and lies?

Yeppers.
Are you claiming that the ugly behavior that humans are good at are not the result of our God Given Nature?

I am.
I'm saying, flat out, human immoral behavior is the result of how we came to exist as humans.

If you prefer to believe differently, feel free to explain why humans are the way we are.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Speak for yourself.
You might have good reason to think that. But please speak for yourself. Or should I say 'yourselves' ? (Lemme check who clicked 'like' on your post.)

I strongly disagree that humans are "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

You strongly disagree? Seriously?

Yes. I strongly disagree

Here's a dedicated thread to debate your claim (about the people on whose behalf you make that claim.)

 

[TomC]

Humans are stupid and immoral.

We are created by an All-powerful God.

Are you suggesting that I am wrong?


I'd love to discuss it. Normally you won't, but here we are in your very own thread.

Discuss away.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Humans are stupid and immoral.

That's the claim.

We are created by an All-powerful God.

I agree.

Are you suggesting that I am wrong?

About the OP debate proposition?
Yes. I strongly disagree.

I'd love to discuss it. Normally you won't...

Nobody is obliged to engage with and comment on every single post made by another person. Especially when many posts dont specifically seek a response and there's no question marks at the end of sentences.

I typically read every post in threads where I've posted. If someone @ mentions me requesting that I comment I endeavour to acknowledge the post and either answer or explain why I won't be answering.

Polite users and sincere, challenging questions have a much better response rate.

but here we are in your very own thread.
Discuss away.
Tom

OK

Shall we start with the crusades. That was your first example.

 

[Lion IRC]

Premiss - The crusades were bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake.

Premiss - Most humans agree the crusades were bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Conclusion - Most humans aren't stupid. Arent bad. Most humans don't support bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful mistakes.

The crusades don't represent mainstream human ideals.

 

[Lion IRC]

Now.
Shall we do Nazis?

What did (and do) most humans think of Hitler?

If you tell me most humans suppport and agree with his badness, stupidity, delusions, lies, ignorance then you win.

But that's not true is it?

 

[TomC]

One thing the crusaders and Nazis have in common is Christianity.

Christianity is the most violent and destructive culture humanity has ever created. The Christian Scriptures have justified more death and destruction than any other ideology in the long and violent history of humanity. It went on for centuries.
Can we agree on that?
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

One thing the crusaders and Nazis have in common is Christianity.

Thats illogical.

Why would predominantly Christian nations like Australia, England, Poland, America, New Zealand, Canada fight against the supposedly Christian cause of Nazism?

Christianity is the most violent and destructive culture humanity has ever created.

During the middle ages virtually every hospital was operated by Christian charitable religious orders.

Shall we do universities next?

How about we take a look at the worlds largest charitable donor to HIV AIDS medical treatment?

Wanna do a deep dive into soup kitchens? Orphanages? Homeless shelters? Single mother refuges? Slavery abolitionists?

The Christian Scriptures have justified more death and destruction than any other ideology in the long and violent history of humanity.

No they havent justified these. They have been claimed as justification. There's an important difference.

It went on for centuries.
Can we agree on that?
Tom

No. And furthermore the social impacts of Christianity isn't the topic of the thread.

You didn't say Christians are "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

You said humans are.

You offered the Crusades and Adolf Hitler as evidence.

As a counter argument I asserted that most humans (including Christians) would think Nazism and the Crusades were harmful, stupid, ignorant, deceitful, mistakes.

And if most humans oppose the thing you offer as examples of generalized human stupidity then your position isn't tenable.

You would have to show that most humans supported the Nazis and the Crusades because most humans are..."very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity. "

 

[TomC]

Thats illogical.

Why would predominantly Christian nations like Australia, England, Poland, America, New Zealand, Canada fight against the supposedly Christian cause of Nazism?

It's irrational behavior on the part of Christians.

Christian morality makes no sense because it was designed by primitive people who were mainly interested in acquiring power.

It's still going on. Lots of people are Christians and support the Teaparty. The Teaparty is not so different from the Nazis in the day.

I don't see much in the typical Teaparty political platform that Jesus would endorse. But there you have it. Christian culture was never about Jesus or His ethics. It's about power and wealth. And it's worked very well for centuries.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Thats illogical.

Why would predominantly Christian nations like Australia, England, Poland, America, New Zealand, Canada fight against the supposedly Christian cause of Nazism?

It's irrational behavior on the part of Christians.

Self defense against an aggressor is irrational?

Christian morality makes no sense because it was designed by primitive people who were mainly interested in acquiring power.

We're not debating whether Christian morality is sensible/justifiable or it's origin story.

It's still going on. Lots of people are Christians and support the Teaparty. The Teaparty is not so different from the Nazis in the day.

You keep on bringing up examples of unpopular, minority, failed movements like the Nazis, the Crusades, The Teaparty...what next? The Ku Klux Clan???

These are not helping your case.

Show me some majority consensus of the human race that these movements enjoyed the overwhelming support.

The Ku Klux Clan was/is very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity." But they are opposed by the overwhelming majority of their fellow human beings.

I don't see much in the typical Teaparty political platform that Jesus would endorse. But there you have it.

Youre drifting off topic.

Christian culture was never about Jesus or His ethics.

Thats a highly contested claim. Easily argued as false. And irrelevant. That's not the topic of the thread.

It's about power and wealth. And it's worked very well for centuries.

Show me your case in support of your proposition stated in the Op

 

[GenesisNemesis]

One thing the crusaders and Nazis have in common is Christianity.

Thats illogical.

Why would predominantly Christian nations like Australia, England, Poland, America, New Zealand, Canada fight against the supposedly Christian cause of Nazism?

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history. Yet another stupid argument - from you - is stupid. But I'm sure you're going to pull another stupid "no true Scotsman" fallacy next.

 

[bilby]

Premiss - The crusades were bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake.

Premiss - Most humans agree the crusades were bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Premise: The word "premiss" means "An argument that fails before it is even stated".

Etymology: From "pre-", meaning "before", and "-miss", meaning "failed to hit the target".

 

[Lion IRC]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

You're making another fallacy, which is the either/or fallacy. It can be true that humans are very inclined towards mistakes, without becoming Nazis. Just because we are inclined towards mistakes, doesn't mean that it would necessarily result in becoming a Nazi. Also, come back to me when you learn basic logic.

 

[pood]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

Another one of your silly non-sequiturs. You really fail philosophy, and logic in particular.

From “most humans disagree with Hitler,” it does NOT follow that most humans are not very inclined … etc. etc. It’s perfectly possible to disagree with Hitler while still being very inclined toward mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, and stupidity. Which, in general, humans are. That’s why we have untold numbers of people believing in a stupid fantasy of a Santa in the sky, and upwards of 70 million voting Americans voting for a psychopathic monster with orange hair and the personality and ethics of Atilla the hun.

 

[pood]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

You're making another fallacy, which is the either/or fallacy. It can be true that humans are very inclined towards mistakes, without becoming Nazis. Just because we are inclined towards mistakes, doesn't mean that it would necessarily result in becoming a Nazi. Also, come back to me when you learn basic logic.

lol, cross post.

 

[TomC]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

Most people see it that way now. We've got the clarity of hindsight.

But Hitler was wildly popular in the 30s.
Not just amongst Germans, he had huge support across the western world. He had a framed portrait of Henry Ford on the wall in his office, because Ford represented his strong supporters in the USA. Which were many and powerful.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

Yet the whole basis of Islamo-Judeo-Christianity is that Allahovahweh ordered sectarian murders, even committed some themself. These are even some of the feels you are including as corroborating evidence for a god.

 

[Lion IRC]

Regardless of whether or not the Nazis were Christians, there has been sectarian violence among Christians throughout history.

I argue that most humans (presumably including yourself) think sectarian violence is bad, stupid, unsuccessful, harmful, a mistake...

Same goes for Hitler/Nazism.

If most humans disagree with Hitler then most humans are NOT "very inclined" towards mistakes, delusions, lies, self-harm, ignorance, stupidity.

Most people see it that way now. We've got the clarity of hindsight.

But Hitler was wildly popular in the 30s.
Not just amongst Germans, he had huge support across the western world. He had a framed portrait of Henry Ford on the wall in his office, because Ford represented his strong supporters in the USA. Which were many and powerful.
Tom

People didn't wait til the end of the war to decide that the Nazis were evil.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Deuteronomy ch. 5 through 30 consists of Moses laying down the Law that God told him to teach the people. When he gets to 13:6-18, he delivers a definitional description of sectarian murder, along with a requirement to carry it out, on your own relatives, if need be, and by killing all the people (and the wicked cattle) of a city where another religion is urged on Israel.
I'm not a sectarian murderer myself, I just play one on TV.