• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

I am surprised to see no interest in TPP here in this forum

Thanks Tea Party democrats. Under untermenche's Nuremberg principals, the resulting deaths from poverty and any conflicts that arise as a result of keeping Vietnam impoverished will be the result of these Tea Party Democrats and their support group. They'll have death and suffering on their hands.

Nuremberg principles concern actual aggression between nations.

If one nation attacks another and has no legitimate reason the attacking nation is responsible for all ensuing crimes. You create hell and terror and you are responsible for what comes out of that.

These principles were crystal clear when it was Nazi's attacking other people.

But for some reason some people are unable to see with clarity when it is the US attacking other people.
 
Trade is not, strictly speaking, the issue. It's fairly easy to trade. If this was just about giving people in 3rd world countries access to US markets, then that would fairly easy to do. If nothing else the US has some of the highest tariff barriers in the world.

No, the issue is local law. It's very easy for governments to pass a law that makes trade vastly. The classic example was France requiring, for all wine in France, that country of origin to be labelled using a French-style label. This meant that French wine-makers could use the labels they already used, and foreign wine-makers couldn't sell their products in France unless they specifically re-labelled them for the French market.

The aim of the TTP is to make that impossible. To prevent local governments from passing regulations about what is sold in their countries, irrespective of their reasons, and to allow companies to sue governments that break this. The effect of this is to give multinational corporations, the only ones with the money to make use of lawsuit provisions, more power over national governments, particularly the national governments of less powerful countries.

Obviously this has to be done in secret, because it involves sacrificing protections that people in those various countries are quite fond of. For example, in the UK it would involve abandoning a policy of encouraging farmers in remote areas of the world to grow food or cash crops rather than drugs. This has been highly successful in reducing drug production, far more so than US 'war of drugs' operations in comparable regions. But it has to go because it's a subsidy, and thus unfair to US-based food giants. Similarly, 'product dumping' or selling goods in 3rd world countries at below the cost of production, in response to a temporary surplus or in order to grow market share, is a practice that has to be shielded against governments of those countries trying to protect local producers. Animal welfare is out, of course, as are a fair number of labelling or tracking schemes.

In other words, it's an international treaty, designed by those who support an ideology of free trade as being more important than any other consideration, that is intended to support large international companies at the expense of local producers and governments. It's intended to clear a path for international trade to dominate local trade, and to ensure that producers in large western countries can use their own local legal systems to resolve any disputes that might arise. This will lower prices, but it's far from clear if it is a good thing overall.
 
As I have pointed out, that usually retards the process and can lead to even less desirable agreements. How they come to the proposal is less important than the actual contents of the proposal.

In regards to agreements between private companies, sure. In regards to the actions of governments, I want more openness and accountability throughout the process. If there's a clause in there which favours Ford at the expense of smaller companies, that needs to be explained or removed early on in the process. If this clause is agreed to because of the inclusion of three or four other clauses elsewhere in the agreement, then it's not going to be just scratched out of the final agreement and changes to it need to be dealt with early on so those can be linked to something else or dropped themselves.

Sounds to me like you think you should be one of the negotiators. But everyone cannot be in those groups. At some point, you have to live with the outcome that others produce.

Why would I need to be "in those groups"? The entire point of the openness and transparency is that you don't need to be in those groups in order to have information about what those groups are doing and to be able to comment about what those groups are doing.
 
The Democratic Tea Party
by David Brooks

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/o...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

Thanks Tea Party democrats. Under untermenche's Nuremberg principals, the resulting deaths from poverty and any conflicts that arise as a result of keeping Vietnam impoverished will be the result of these Tea Party Democrats and their support group. They'll have death and suffering on their hands.

So now it's foreign aid and geopolitical fear of China.

Seems odd that the corporate PTB are itching to give money to the poorest countries….unless of course there's more to it, which of course there is.
 
In regards to agreements between private companies, sure. In regards to the actions of governments, I want more openness and accountability throughout the process.
Tell you what. Get Canada to try our your ideas and let's see how they work out.
Why would I need to be "in those groups"? The entire point of the openness and transparency is that you don't need to be in those groups in order to have information about what those groups are doing and to be able to comment about what those groups are doing.
What is the point of commenting unless you think those comments are going to be incorporated into the process? As I have repeatedly pointed out, that essentially makes negotiating group unwieldy and can make the results worse after a longer period of time.
 
What is the point of commenting unless you think those comments are going to be incorporated into the process? As I have repeatedly pointed out, that essentially makes negotiating group unwieldy and can make the results worse after a longer period of time.

No, it makes those groups accountable. Their deliberations are public so they need to make an extra effort to ensure that their process is above board. If they're negotiating something where there's no problems with what's being negotiated, they're not slowed down. It's only where there's undue influence that it becomes unwieldy because they need to take extra time to explain why it is they're doing the things that they shouldn't be doing.
 
What is the point of commenting unless you think those comments are going to be incorporated into the process? As I have repeatedly pointed out, that essentially makes negotiating group unwieldy and can make the results worse after a longer period of time.

No, it makes those groups accountable. Their deliberations are public so they need to make an extra effort to ensure that their process is above board. If they're negotiating something where there's no problems with what's being negotiated, they're not slowed down. It's only where there's undue influence that it becomes unwieldy because they need to take extra time to explain why it is they're doing the things that they shouldn't be doing.
The groups are already accountable for the final product. There is no reason to make their job more difficult by necessarily making it more transparent to everyone.
 
No, it makes those groups accountable. Their deliberations are public so they need to make an extra effort to ensure that their process is above board. If they're negotiating something where there's no problems with what's being negotiated, they're not slowed down. It's only where there's undue influence that it becomes unwieldy because they need to take extra time to explain why it is they're doing the things that they shouldn't be doing.
The groups are already accountable for the final product. There is no reason to make their job more difficult by necessarily making it more transparent to everyone.

How are they accountable if their results are buried within hundreds of pages of other clauses which none of the people voting on it read and it's not specified anywhere why the clauses they put in are there?
 
The groups are already accountable for the final product. There is no reason to make their job more difficult by necessarily making it more transparent to everyone.

How are they accountable if their results are buried within hundreds of pages of other clauses which none of the people voting on it read and it's not specified anywhere why the clauses they put in are there?
In your rather outre example of reality, they are accountable but the relevant parties do not wish to do anything.
 
How are they accountable if their results are buried within hundreds of pages of other clauses which none of the people voting on it read and it's not specified anywhere why the clauses they put in are there?
In your rather outre example of reality, they are accountable but the relevant parties do not wish to do anything.

I'm sorry, that's a somewhat oblique sentence. In what way is that not synonymous with "there's no accountability at all"?

Can you give a non-outre example of how someone would be held accountable for putting a questionable clause into a trade document like the TPP? I'm not really getting how accountability factors into your position beyond having the word stuck in there not doing much.
 
What would be better than Obama's trade deal? How about Donald Trump's? He'll kick China's butt for you!

Instead of the secrecy and TOP-DOWN special-interest wheeling-and-dealing that we put up with now, what should determine the trade decisions? Why not the following:

The U.S. should replace all existing trade law/agreements with a one-page unilateral FREE TRADE DOCTRINE issued to the rest of the world.

The terms should include:

U.S. market open to all countries on equal terms, no distinction of one country from another.

No embargos/boycotts (unless this is demanded by the entire world community taking action against an outlaw nation).

One uniform low tariff applied equally to all countries and to all industries and all products with no distinction for any reason.

The uniform tariff low enough so that the revenue to the U.S. would be about the same as now. The tariff not based on the value of the imports but according to a formula calculated from the weight and volume of the shipping container. No inspection of the contents other than security check, like for bombs, etc., but not to determine the value.

The same regulations/standards/inspections as are imposed onto domestic products, but nothing additional.

No demands on any country about its internal domestic policies: human rights, labor practices, environmental policies, economic policies (including "currency manipulation" or other practices imagined to be harmful to the U.S.) --- etc. (Unless there is worldwide demand for a boycott against an outlaw nation). All questions about any country's bad behavior could still be dealt with separately from trade policy.

No conditions that punish companies for "shipping jobs overseas" and other crybaby nonsense. No protection of anyone other than consumers.


This would be the best trade policy, because it would best serve consumers, and serving consumers is the only legitimate purpose of trade or business or economic policy.

The allowance of a low tariff level could be desirable as a revenue source, which benefits the whole country and thus is similar to the legitimate aim of benefiting consumers.

Even though no such rational trade policy will ever exist, why wouldn't this ideally be the best? What would be a better trade policy, to be decided openly with total transparency and announced to all? What could ever be more important than a policy based on maximum benefit to consumers?

If it's only an ideal, this does not mean it's impractical, but only that it simply will never happen. What would not be practical or do-able about it? What else is wrong with this except that it won't actually happen?

And, if we can't have something logical like this, what could we have that would best serve consumers? Whatever reform or improvement is needed to the current system, shouldn't it be based on the fundamental principle of serving consumers above all, rather than bone-headed slogans about "saving our jobs" or China-bashing or WalMart-bashing?

No? It's all about saving "our jobs" etc.? OK, then Donald Trump's your champion. He'll beat up on the WalMarts and the Chinas and job-killing boogie-man dragons for you. He can beat his chest better than Hillary or even Bernie Sanders! He'll save a hundred times as many "jobs" as that Sanders idiot! and blow more hot air -- that's what the voters want, isn't it? The loudest China-bashing blowhard?
 
The same regulations/standards/inspections as are imposed onto domestic products, but nothing additional.

That would mean every country could maintain it's own standards, exactly what the TTP is designed to prevent.

Even though no such rational trade policy will ever exist, why wouldn't this ideally be the best? What would be a better trade policy, to be decided openly with total transparency and announced to all? What could ever be more important than a policy based on maximum benefit to consumers?

Well, the effect of ruthlessly promoting export and low price would be to replace a great many small producers with international giants. Since small producers tend to be more innovative, encouraging the crushing all small producers in favour of larger incumbents would slow technical development and thus growth.

Generally speaking you want the market to be an efficient comparator and competitive environment. There's no particular virtue in crushing companies just for being small, even if it results in a small price reduction, because you lose out on disruptive innovation and end up reducing competition.
 
Get used to seeing these four letters: ISDS. They stand for Investor-State Dispute Settlement. They are legal clauses common in trade deals and they lend a foreign corporation the right to sue a government if that government has the cheek to govern in a way that damages their commercial interests.

And there they were this very week: ISDS provisions interred in the minutiae of Australia's Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with China – provisions which may give the Chinese rights to sue Australia if they feel aggrieved by some change in our laws.

As corporations slowly but relentlessly tighten their grip over governments, it is worth considering how far they are prepared to go to enforce their rights, especially as the secretive Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade deal includes ISDS clauses too.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/trade-deals-acronym-really-translates-to-we-lose-20150619-ghrqm8
 
In your rather outre example of reality, they are accountable but the relevant parties do not wish to do anything.

I'm sorry, that's a somewhat oblique sentence. In what way is that not synonymous with "there's no accountability at all"?
It is not oblique if you took the time to actually think about it. The negotiators are accountable to the people who appoint or elect them. The fact the negotiators are not held to your standards of "accountability" does not mean they are not held accountable, just that the people to whom they are directly accountable are choosing not to act in way that satisfies your ill-conceived whims.
 
I'm sorry, that's a somewhat oblique sentence. In what way is that not synonymous with "there's no accountability at all"?
It is not oblique if you took the time to actually think about it. The negotiators are accountable to the people who appoint or elect them. The fact the negotiators are not held to your standards of "accountability" does not mean they are not held accountable, just that the people to whom they are directly accountable are choosing not to act in way that satisfies your ill-conceived whims.

When I see what the Clintons have managed to put together for themselves out of Bill's Presidency and then I see Obama, possibly the most hated president to have held office I am reading Obama's support for TPP as clearly a bid for personal wealth after leaving office. The problem with that is that it is a fuck the public interests bid and completely devoted to making Friends of Barry....for later...just like the Clintons. The same applies to Diane Feinstein. That fast track idea will have to be taken back away sometime soon. This is another very obvious removal of the government of the people from the people.
 
Looks like fast track authority is going to be authorized:

The U.S. Senate paved the way for a final vote Wednesday on legislation that would give President Barack Obama enhanced authority to complete free-trade deals including a landmark agreement with Pacific nations.

The 60-37 vote Tuesday to advance the measure came after a series of setbacks including a rebellion two weeks ago by House Democrats. Because the House has voted for the bill, H.R. 2146, it would go directly to the president for his signature upon Senate passage.

“Now it’s time for the next step,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said on the floor before the vote. “Today is a very big vote; it’s an important moment for the country.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...-trade-bill-advances-toward-final-senate-vote
 
It's done:

WASHINGTON — The Senate on Wednesday gave final approval to legislation granting President Obama enhanced power to negotiate major trade agreements with Asia and Europe, sending the president’s biggest end-of-term legislative priority to the White House for his signature.

The vote was 60 to 38.

Senators then approved legislation assisting workers dislocated by international trade accords, attaching it to a popular African trade measure that will go to the House on Thursday for a final vote. House Democrats signaled they would support the worker-assistance measure, which they voted down two weeks ago in a tactical bid to derail the trade authority bill.

The flurry of legislative action secured a hard-fought victory for Mr. Obama and the Republican congressional leadership. It kept on track an ambitious agenda to complete a sweeping trade Pacific trade agreement joining 12 countries — from Canada and Chile to Australia and Japan — into a web of rules governing trans-Pacific commerce. Negotiators will also move forward on an accord with Europe, knowing any agreement over the next six years cannot be amended or filibustered by Congress.

“This is a critical day for our country,” said Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee. He called the trade promotion authority bill “the most important bill we’ll do this year.”

“It’s taken a while to get here, longer than many of us would have liked,” he added, “but anything worth doing takes effort.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/business/trade-pact-senate-vote-obama.html
 
Fast track is Obama's payoff for living through his presidency. Soon he will have his payoff, once out of office....similar to Clinton.:horsecrap:
 
I'm sorry, that's a somewhat oblique sentence. In what way is that not synonymous with "there's no accountability at all"?
It is not oblique if you took the time to actually think about it. The negotiators are accountable to the people who appoint or elect them. The fact the negotiators are not held to your standards of "accountability" does not mean they are not held accountable,...

Having thought about it very carefully., I disagree. That is, in fact, exactly what it means.

Under laughingdog's rather convenient definition, two people who agreed to keep an eye on each other would be being held 'accountable.' It's a bit like saying a dictator of a country is accountable, as long as they're married who might give them sharp looks if they misbehave.

The lack of any kind of accountability or oversight in these kinds of trade deals has been a major issue for the last 20 years. It's been cited as a major erosion of liberty and democracy. The fact that the negotiators are answerable to no one outside their own social circle is behaviourally dangerous, profoundly undemocratic, and only serves to underline their questionable status in law.

I feel these criticisms deserve to be met and answered, rather than being swept under the smokescreen of a purely semantic argument.
 
Back
Top Bottom