I have now met a real life creationist.

[wilson]

Of course you are! Why else are you here?

ha ha. Thanks for reafirming a preconception I have about religious people. Primarily ego-driven and an inablity to listen to anything that doesn't inflate their ego.

That is irrelevant sarcasm.

I have no need to convince anybody of anything. Ever. I'm here to learn. To test my ideas. And also to be entertained. I love thinking. I love trying to understand other people's point of view.

Maybe you have no need to but you are trying to convince every reader who does not see things your way to consider your proposals. If I were easily manipulated by materialism and materialists, I might be tempted to conclude: "Maybe this guy is right. I will henceforth consider things from a materialistic outlook," then you will have convinced me - right?

That is why I joined a Jehova's witness Biblical study group. I like learning for the sake of learning alone.

I don't believe you ever did. Let's see if you actually did:
The format for studying the bible among Jehovah's Witnesses is the same around the world. Bible studies are conducted on a one-on-one basis:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#mediaitems/VODMinistryTools/pub-whbs_E_x_VIDEO

And when we meet in larger numbers:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#mediaitems/VODMinistryTools/pub-whkh_E_x_VIDEO

It is never done online and one reason is because the qualification of the conductor is unknown, if there is a conductor.
See how easily a person can be misled about us?

How about looking into a mirror and loving yourself for who you are?

That is not always a good idea:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...tExpTransformations/docid-502015502_E_1_VIDEO
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...tExpTransformations/docid-502016525_E_1_VIDEO
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...tExpTransformations/docid-502013390_E_1_VIDEO

Why do you need all this bullshit to convince yourself you are good enough?

Now, what are you attempting to convince me of?

You are. We all are.

Since we all need discipline, self-approval is a very bad idea:
“ Because sentence against a bad deed has not been executed speedily, the heart of men becomes emboldened to do bad.” (Ecclesiastes 8:11)

We're all deep down inside small, fragile and with a burning desire to be seen and loved.

It takes no effort to be seen. To be loved, a person must be lovable. Some people are like porcupines; hugging them leaves you in great agony.

Why do you need the affirmation of others to feel you are good enough?

No man is an island. We all must confirm to the standards of our communities.
Consider: What makes a bully? What generates sarcasm and ridicule?

The ego affirmation of the ability to convince others.

About what? That being a bully is "cool?" That punching people in the face for no reason is OK?
Can you love that kind of people? Don't be ridiculous!

I'm just interpreting the rules you are establishing and taking them seriously. It looks to me like I'm taking what you are saying a hell of a lot more seriously than you are.

What rules am I establishing?

The non-limitations that govern God.

When and how did I do that? Your claim is blatantly false!

Humans are governed by another set of limitations.

I did not put them in place and I am not objecting to them.

These rules have consequences.

Glad that you recognize them.

If an entity is omnipotent and there is suffering, it means that this entity wants people to suffer = evil.

Why does that bother you? You don't believe in any omnipotent being - right?

Let's see if I did.
You own words (above) demonstrate that human rule is a dismal failure. You are seeking a materialistic solution to your problems and you cannot find one, despite your best efforts.

I'd say that the pain of disease and other suffering is both spiritual as well as physical.

Materialists do not believe in anything spiritual. Why are you contradicting yourself?

But it's not our failure. It's God's failure.

What God? He does not exist - remember?

If God created us and this is what we do based on our biology then we can just blame God.

Are you saying that things like lying and crime is biological?

We have nothing to feel shame about and we certainly haven't failed at anything.

Big joke - right? Are you proud of the holocaust, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, The rape of China by Japan and that of Ethiopia by Italy?
Haven't failed? Are the nations of earth able to live at peace with each other? Have they kept the environment clean?

If we believe we were created by God we can just stop trying and just go with it.

Trying to do what? Are you not trying to convince me again?

I think that the logical conclusion that follows from us being created by God is that we don't have to take responsibility for anything.

Even if you're guilty? Should I believe that? You are, in effect, claiming that you do not need discipline of any kind. Denial is self-delusion.

Preventing evil, and even avoiding evil is not at all hard for humans IF they know what to look for and IF have the right heart condition.
No form of government on this earth has, or ever can, bring justice and fairness to humanity. Greed and selfishness form an impenetrable barrier to justice. There would be no "strain on finite resources" if some men were not grabbing for more than they need.
If you think I'm wrong, then go ahead and name me a government that is successful in governing with peace and justice. Show me a government that is not in a state of crisis. Every department of every government is in a state of crisis, with no hope for improvement.
You have muddled your way almost to extinction and you want God, if he exists, to bail you out.

I'm sorry, but if it was easy we'd have done it already.

That is nonsense! I know a 6-year-old girl who is taking a class in Mandarin Chinese. It is easy for her, but not for her parents nor myself.
Solution: We need direction from a better source.

The problem isn't our "heart condition". The problem is our "biological design".

Who are you to make that decision? What design? There is no design in nature - remember?
The heart is the seat of motivation. There are "matters of the heart," "pain of heart," "heartless actions," There's our problem.
You are one confused individual.
I asked you earlier:

Why don't you try and resist the standards, rules and laws of nature? You, of course, did not write them, yet - you obey. Why?

To which you responded:

Are you now trying to conflate natural laws with moral laws?

Now, you're saying it again: "The problem is our "biological design."" You seem to think it is a "law" of nature - right?
Let's see if that is correct:
If it is a law of nature, embedded in our "biological design," then it must apply to everyone - right? No one can disregard any law of nature.
Then how do you explain the fact that millions of us are not selfish nor greedy?

We grab for more than we need because we're wired for it. It's an instinct.

More nonsense! You are justifying greed and selfishness.

It has to do with amassing wealth in bountiful times so we won't starve in lean times. This is an instinct that evolved in humans when there were very few of us around. Easy to explain if we believe in evolution. But if we believe in creationism is just means God created us to be greedy. Again God = evil.

Now you know better.

Of course I expect God to bail us out, if he exists. Because God is omnipotent. It would be zero effort for God.

Why should he? He says: "Go this way!" You say: "I won't! I choose to go my own way." So, he allows you to do so. Why should he bail you out now?
“. . .It is a man’s own foolishness that distorts his way, And (then) his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah.” (Proverbs 19:3)

"LET us say that you have been a happily married man for many years. But one day when you return home, you find that everything in your house has been turned upside down. The furniture has been smashed, the crockery shattered, the carpet ruined beyond repair. Your treasured home has become a disaster zone. Would you blurt out, “Why did my wife do this?” Or would you be more likely to ask, “Who did this?” No doubt the second question would immediately come to your mind. Why? Because you know that your cherished mate would not be the cause of such a wanton act of vandalism.
Today, we see mankind’s home marred by pollution, violence, and immorality. As Bible students, we know that Jehovah cannot possibly be the cause of all these problems. He created this planet to be a delightful paradise. (Gen. 2:8,*15) Jehovah is a God of love. (1*John 4:8) Our study of the Scriptures has helped us to identify the real cause of many of the world’s difficulties. It is none other than Satan the Devil, “the ruler of the world.”—John 14:30; 2*Cor. 4:4.
However, we cannot blame Satan for all our woes. Why not? Because some of our problems are the result of our own mistakes. (Read Deuteronomy 32:4-6.) Even though we might admit that fact, our imperfect nature can distort our thinking and cause us to go down a path that eventually leads to disaster. (Prov. 14:12) In what way? Instead of blaming ourselves or Satan for a problem, we could start to blame Jehovah. We might even become “enraged against Jehovah himself.”—Prov. 19:3.(WT 13 8/15 p. 10)

You make your "rage against Jehovah" quite evident.

The fact that God doesn't means, by necessity, that God does not exist. This is assuming God is defined as benevolent.

Well, he does a mighty good job of guiding his people away from the course of action that you call "biological design."

Jesus Christ also taught us to pray for God's rulership to take over the earth:
“. . .Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.  Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” (Matthew 6:9, 10)
And.......
There would be no conflicts if bullheaded men heeded the wise admonition from Jesus Christ:
“. . .“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them.. . .” (Matthew 7:12)
Millions of us are living by this principle and have learned how to avoid the conflicts that now plague materialists. We are not involved in the miseries and disappointments of politics, the horrors of warfare nor the disease of materialism. Yes, we have learned to love each other.

Now - tell me how that could fail.

People like freedom, no matter what. I'm for democracy. Any dictator, no matter how good he is is still a dictator. I'd be the first to revolt.

If these few principles are applied, you haven't yet told me how that could fail.

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That has already been debunked.

You are merely seeking to avoid the question:
"You really want him to stop you from doing what you really want to do?"
You feel justified in fighting and killing for what you think you need when your needs are few indeed.

I can't stop being human. We're born with a certain set of instincts. We have to obey them or we will be unhappy.

Nonsense! I, and millions like myself, are not the way you describe humanity. We are very happy repudiating the fleshly attitudes and living according to biblical principles that are infallible.

 

[blastula]

Yes, please think of the children.

How Jehovah’s Witnesses Leaders Hide Child Abuse Secrets At All Costs | KPBS

Promise to think of the victims of false charges?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308141778_A_skeptical_view_of_repressed_memory_evidence

I recognize false memory is a fact, but are you saying all accusations against JW leaders are a result of false memories?

 

[wilson]

Promise to think of the victims of false charges?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308141778_A_skeptical_view_of_repressed_memory_evidence

I recognize false memory is a fact, but are you saying all accusations against JW leaders are a result of false memories?

You can figure that one out for yourself.
I'll give you some pointers:
Add up the total of all sexual molestation accusations against JWs.
Next - see how many of those are based on repressed memories.
Now - figure out how many of those "repressed memory" accusations you can trust.
Finally - see how many of them you can prove.

Easy!

 

[blastula]

Do you have those numbers?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Do you have those numbers?

I think it's one of those trick questions, where all the math is meaningless, because at step 'Can you prove' he multiplies everything by 0.

Funny, really, that someone who takes the Bible as divine testimony without quibble, won't accept testimony against his favorite organization unless there's solid proof to back it up.
JUST a teensy bit lopsided...

 

[wilson]

Do you have those numbers?

Since you have chosen to advertise those accusations without any proof, you can figure that one out for yourself.
Remember, if you make an accusation against anyone and you are unable to prove it, you are slandering that person.

 

[blastula]

I don't understand. Are you saying you know how many accusations are false?

 

[wilson]

I don't understand. Are you saying you know how many accusations are false?

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, please think of the children.

How Jehovah’s Witnesses Leaders Hide Child Abuse Secrets At All Costs | KPBS

Promise to think of the victims of false charges?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308141778_A_skeptical_view_of_repressed_memory_evidence

Not cool. I know people who have grown up in Jehova's Witness. As well as a therapist who is also an ex-Jehova's Witness who only specializes in helping people who have grown up in the movement. The damage from growing up in the movement is well known, well researched and predictable. There's many problems. But one for instance, is their practice of shunning. It's systematic! Which is emotional abuse when done towards adults, but child abuse when done towards children. Google "conditional love" if you don't believe me. Mentally ill or mentally weak parents can sometimes condition their love toward their children to better control them. It works really well if you want to control your child. But it is severe mental abuse and always does a lot of damage. This would be true regardless if they're ever shunned or not. It's not something that anybody can ever fully heal from. And is encouraged and systematic in the movement.

All Jehova's Witnesses know the practice goes on. As long as they stay I think all Jehova's Witnesses are child abusers, or the very least accessories to it. As well as guilty of conspiring to psychologically abuse other adults. There's nothing acceptable about the practice. I know all their justifications for it. But they completely ignore basic human psychology. We are social beings. Our social community is important to members of our species. There's nothing more psychologically damaging to us than living in constant fear of being shunned by it. And let's be honest, nobody can live up to Christian moral standards. They're designed around shared human psychological weaknesses to ensure all humans are "sinners". So all Jehova's Witnesses will have have the fear. They will always feel they're not good enough and know they're not living up to the moral standards they should. Nobody could!

This practice in combination with the extreme ego-massaging and ego-inflating makes it evil. We're all suckers for praise and to hear that we're special and chosen. So that in combination with the shunning makes it so incredibly malicious. It's like it's designed to do maximum psychological damage. Which I suspect it is. You don't need to read much about Charles Taze Russel to figure out he was a con-man.

And then I haven't even touched on the out-right abuse that goes on. The movement doesn't attract healthy and wholesome people. Bring enough psychologically broken people together with zero healthy emotional guidance and add to it constant on-going emotional abuse and you've got the perfect storm of people cracking under the pressure. My ex-Jehova friends have so many stories of incest and rape going on. Of course covered up to hide the shame of it. All the constant effort going into making the surface look good.

Be my guest, try to deny it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Maybe you have no need to but you are trying to convince every reader who does not see things your way to consider your proposals. If I were easily manipulated by materialism and materialists, I might be tempted to conclude: "Maybe this guy is right. I will henceforth consider things from a materialistic outlook," then you will have convinced me - right?

I always try to see it from the "other's" point of view. I'm always ready to be convinced. This is one of the things I like about this form. There's a lot of smart people here. People here have convinced me I'm wrong many times. I'm always ready to update my reality.

That is why I joined a Jehova's witness Biblical study group. I like learning for the sake of learning alone.

I don't believe you ever did. Let's see if you actually did:
The format for studying the bible among Jehovah's Witnesses is the same around the world. Bible studies are conducted on a one-on-one basis:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#mediaitems/VODMinistryTools/pub-whbs_E_x_VIDEO

This was via chat. I was invited by a Jehova's Witness I talked to, much like this, but another forum. The page had a whole bunch of study groups on various levels and topics. I went for a beginner one. I was the only non-American. But everybody lived in the sticks somewhere. We all got Bible passages to read and then we were supposed to discuss them. There was a study guide with the JW interpretation. And then we were supposed to discuss it. But there was no discussion. Nobody was being critical. Whenever I was I just got shut down. I was asked to leave after the first time.

It is never done online and one reason is because the qualification of the conductor is unknown, if there is a conductor.
See how easily a person can be misled about us?

How does one qualify to be a "conductor"?

The non-limitations that govern God.

When and how did I do that? Your claim is blatantly false!

You're a Christian. So it follows that you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient. Those two aspects have consequences. Since God knows everything and it would be zero effort for God do anything we can conclude that everything happens by divine design.

Humans are governed by another set of limitations.

I did not put them in place and I am not objecting to them.

These rules have consequences.

Glad that you recognize them.

It's not a question of recognizing them. They're biological limitations as well as instincts. I can't not obey. That's why all humans will break Biblical laws. They're designed around human instincts, to make sure we're all "sinners".

If an entity is omnipotent and there is suffering, it means that this entity wants people to suffer = evil.

Why does that bother you? You don't believe in any omnipotent being - right?

Because worship has political consequences. It bothers me that a large proportion of humanity worship and evil deity. Not only is the God evil, but it's worshipers define the evil is a benevolent entity. That makes me uneasy.

Materialists do not believe in anything spiritual. Why are you contradicting yourself?

I'm both a materialist as well as highly spiritual. I think we define spirituality differently. What does spirituality mean to you?

But it's not our failure. It's God's failure.

What God? He does not exist - remember?

I stated right at the beginning that I'm trying to see things from your perspective in order to understand you.

If God created us and this is what we do based on our biology then we can just blame God.

Are you saying that things like lying and crime is biological?

There's no species that can perform acts unnatural to it. So it has to be human behaviour we were "designed" to do. So, God's fault.

We have nothing to feel shame about and we certainly haven't failed at anything.

Big joke - right? Are you proud of the holocaust, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, The rape of China by Japan and that of Ethiopia by Italy?
Haven't failed? Are the nations of earth able to live at peace with each other? Have they kept the environment clean?

Now you're assuming God doesn't exist. I'm talking from the perspective of God existing.

Who are you to make that decision? What design? There is no design in nature - remember?
The heart is the seat of motivation. There are "matters of the heart," "pain of heart," "heartless actions," There's our problem.
You are one confused individual.

Again, I'm trying to see things from your perspective. You believe in design. So I'm assuming design in my argument and taking it to it's logical conclusion.

Then how do you explain the fact that millions of us are not selfish nor greedy?

Being selfish is stupid. We're constantly dependent on others. Smart people know this. Anybody smart isn't selfish. There's a lot of smart people in the world. Not as many as I would like. But there's loads of them.

We grab for more than we need because we're wired for it. It's an instinct.

More nonsense! You are justifying greed and selfishness.

I do think we're wired for it. But I also think that it's a fairly easy instinct to combat. Assuming we're not in desperate straights. But if we have our house in order and not feeling our existence is threatened I think we can be generous. I'm a generous guy. But then again, I've had a quite high salary all my adult life. I've always made more money than most of my friends. Being generous for me has been easy and cheap.

Of course I expect God to bail us out, if he exists. Because God is omnipotent. It would be zero effort for God.

Why should he? He says: "Go this way!" You say: "I won't! I choose to go my own way." So, he allows you to do so. Why should he bail you out now?
“. . .It is a man’s own foolishness that distorts his way, And (then) his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah.” (Proverbs 19:3)

It's zero cost to God. We have to make an effort to help others. God doesn't. He can help people even if they don't deserve it. God loses nothing by doing it. Why wouldn't he always do it? Assuming he exists. Don't anthropomorphise God or his motivations.

"LET us say that you have been a happily married man for many years. But one day when you return home, you find that everything in your house has been turned upside down. The furniture has been smashed, the crockery shattered, the carpet ruined beyond repair. Your treasured home has become a disaster zone. Would you blurt out, “Why did my wife do this?” Or would you be more likely to ask, “Who did this?” No doubt the second question would immediately come to your mind. Why? Because you know that your cherished mate would not be the cause of such a wanton act of vandalism.
Today, we see mankind’s home marred by pollution, violence, and immorality. As Bible students, we know that Jehovah cannot possibly be the cause of all these problems. He created this planet to be a delightful paradise. (Gen. 2:8,*15) Jehovah is a God of love. (1*John 4:8) Our study of the Scriptures has helped us to identify the real cause of many of the world’s difficulties. It is none other than Satan the Devil, “the ruler of the world.”—John 14:30; 2*Cor. 4:4.
However, we cannot blame Satan for all our woes. Why not? Because some of our problems are the result of our own mistakes. (Read Deuteronomy 32:4-6.) Even though we might admit that fact, our imperfect nature can distort our thinking and cause us to go down a path that eventually leads to disaster. (Prov. 14:12) In what way? Instead of blaming ourselves or Satan for a problem, we could start to blame Jehovah. We might even become “enraged against Jehovah himself.”—Prov. 19:3.(WT 13 8/15 p. 10)

So then why is their evil? If Jehova is omnipotent and designed this world to be a delightful paradise it would be. It's not. So he didn't.

You make your "rage against Jehovah" quite evident.

I'm exactly as angry with God right now as I was angry with Santa Clause for not giving me presents this Christmas, or for the magical flying unicorn for not picking me last night when I needed a taxi.

We're just taking hypothetical rule systems to their logical conclusions. This is like solving a maths problems at school. Emotions doesn't enter into it. Apart from the enjoyment of solving riddles.

The fact that God doesn't means, by necessity, that God does not exist. This is assuming God is defined as benevolent.

Well, he does a mighty good job of guiding his people away from the course of action that you call "biological design."

Ok, then, feel free to back it up with arguments. If this is the best God could do he sucks as a designer.

Jesus Christ also taught us to pray for God's rulership to take over the earth:
“. . .Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.  Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” (Matthew 6:9, 10)
And.......
There would be no conflicts if bullheaded men heeded the wise admonition from Jesus Christ:
“. . .“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them.. . .” (Matthew 7:12)
Millions of us are living by this principle and have learned how to avoid the conflicts that now plague materialists. We are not involved in the miseries and disappointments of politics, the horrors of warfare nor the disease of materialism. Yes, we have learned to love each other.

Now - tell me how that could fail.

It did. Just look at the state of this planet = failure.

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That has already been debunked.

I didn't get the memo.

You are merely seeking to avoid the question:
"You really want him to stop you from doing what you really want to do?"
You feel justified in fighting and killing for what you think you need when your needs are few indeed.

Ehe... no. If God existed I would want him to stay the fuck away from me and everybody else on this planet. Living in a kind of celestial North Korea does not sound appealing to me.

And if this planet is the result of God's design he is obviously terrible at it and should do us a favour of laying off trying to help. He seems to be the kind of entity that means well but, due to it's idiocy, just screws things up all the time. I can do without that kind of a "king".

I can't stop being human. We're born with a certain set of instincts. We have to obey them or we will be unhappy.

Nonsense! I, and millions like myself, are not the way you describe humanity. We are very happy repudiating the fleshly attitudes and living according to biblical principles that are infallible.

I think you are lying. Either to me or yourself. I don't think it's possible for anybody.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I don't understand. Are you saying you know how many accusations are false?

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

I suppose that would include every time he calls other posters 'liars?'

 

[DrZoidberg]

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

I suppose that would include every time he calls other posters 'liars?'

Or any accusation that God exists

 

[Keith&Co.]

I don't think that's exactly an accusation, but yes, I'd say claims offered with no better proof than stories someone wrote down would deserve the same level of scrutiny.

 

[funinspace]

It is happening right here. Allegations are widely circulated as facts and the spreading of lies continue.

LOL…could you point out where someone has posted child sexual abuse allegations as facts? I for one, have posted information regarding the incorrect information that you have posted suggesting that there were ‘only 11 JW elders sued in 13 lawsuits’ with your cutesy misleadingly carved quote from Wiki, which you conveniently failed to provide a link to.

...What would you do if, out of the blue, a person accused you of molesting them 10, perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. There is no evidence of such a deed besides the word of that person.
How do you defend yourself?

This problem, which the courts strive to balance, is made far worse by groups that think they are so special that they are above the law. The RCC has gotten better about this in the last decade or two, but the JW still seem to be stuck in a time warp. Your church elders should not be the gate keeper nor the people interviewing witnesses to decide when ‘allegations’ should be taken to the police for reporting a crime. Your sect is no more special than any other like the Roman Catholic Church.

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

I suppose that would include every time he calls other posters 'liars?'

Or any accusation that God exists

Yeah, Wilson has done a nice job falsifying his own faith here. Just imagine anonymous people making allegations that lots of magic happened decades previously…can't trust that kind of horse pucky.

 

[wilson]

Promise to think of the victims of false charges?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308141778_A_skeptical_view_of_repressed_memory_evidence

Not cool. I know people who have grown up in Jehova's Witness. As well as a therapist who is also an ex-Jehova's Witness who only specializes in helping people who have grown up in the movement. The damage from growing up in the movement is well known, well researched and predictable. There's many problems.

I am one of those. Am I "damaged?" How on earth would you/could you know?
During the wars of the 20th century, not one person's blood has been shed by one of JWs.
My marriage has lasted. I have no delinquent nor illegitimate children. I have never been drunk, never used nor even introduced to drugs, never been in trouble with the law. I have travelled to many parts of this country and to other countries. The hospitality has never cost me a dime. The love and support among JWs is incredible!

But one for instance, is their practice of shunning. It's systematic! Which is emotional abuse when done towards adults, but child abuse when done towards children. Google "conditional love" if you don't believe me. Mentally ill or mentally weak parents can sometimes condition their love toward their children to better control them. It works really well if you want to control your child. But it is severe mental abuse and always does a lot of damage. This would be true regardless if they're ever shunned or not. It's not something that anybody can ever fully heal from. And is encouraged and systematic in the movement.

All Jehova's Witnesses know the practice goes on. As long as they stay I think all Jehova's Witnesses are child abusers, or the very least accessories to it.

And all of this comes from your personal knowledge and experience - right? Can you prove any of that?

As well as guilty of conspiring to psychologically abuse other adults. There's nothing acceptable about the practice. I know all their justifications for it. But they completely ignore basic human psychology. We are social beings. Our social community is important to members of our species. There's nothing more psychologically damaging to us than living in constant fear of being shunned by it. And let's be honest, nobody can live up to Christian moral standards. They're designed around shared human psychological weaknesses to ensure all humans are "sinners". So all Jehova's Witnesses will have have the fear. They will always feel they're not good enough and know they're not living up to the moral standards they should. Nobody could!

This practice in combination with the extreme ego-massaging and ego-inflating makes it evil. We're all suckers for praise and to hear that we're special and chosen. So that in combination with the shunning makes it so incredibly malicious. It's like it's designed to do maximum psychological damage. Which I suspect it is. You don't need to read much about Charles Taze Russel to figure out he was a con-man.

And you knew him personally - right? You were there when he conned somebody - right? You went over the court documents when he was convicted for his crimes - right?
Who do you think you are, man?

And then I haven't even touched on the out-right abuse that goes on. The movement doesn't attract healthy and wholesome people. Bring enough psychologically broken people together with zero healthy emotional guidance and add to it constant on-going emotional abuse and you've got the perfect storm of people cracking under the pressure. My ex-Jehova friends have so many stories of incest and rape going on. Of course covered up to hide the shame of it. All the constant effort going into making the surface look good.

Be my guest, try to deny it.

No! Denying it is not worth the time. More and worse accusations usually follow. Out time is used for the teaching of the scriptures, those whose hearts impel them towards it; not dealing with the emotional problems of others.
Talk is cheap and lies are even cheaper.

Why do JWs expel people?
How many of those "former JWs" are sexually immoral people?
Sexual immorality is the most frequent cause of disfellowshipping among JWs.
What scriptural guidelines do we follow?

“. . .In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people,  not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

The movement doesn't attract healthy and wholesome people.

We get all of our instructions in writing. Encouragement to do what is wrong or bad would be found there. The public is invited to examine our literature to attend our meetings, and to visit our website JW.ORG. We have no secret meetings, practices nor rituals, nor do we need any.
"ONE rotten apple spoils the whole barrel."

I challenge you to find a single violent, criminal, homosexual, lesbian, foul-mouthed, immoral, able-bodied person on welfare, etc, among JWs! That's the kind of people who are usually kicked out.

That is my challenge to you.
If you are not slandering JWs, you will be able to prove it. Easily.

And..........
You have not dealt with the question of repressed memory and accusations against JWs at all.
Try that.

Now.........
YOU - try to prove what really "goes on" in the organization. And tell us how you really know - OK?

 

[blastula]

I don't understand. Are you saying you know how many accusations are false?

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

No, that's not true. Insufficient evidence means unknown, not false.

When you said

Add up the total of all sexual molestation accusations against JWs.
Next - see how many of those are based on repressed memories.

You didn't know this information yourself, did you?

I'll also ask again if you believe all accusations against JWs have been false?

How about when a JW pleads guilty as in this case? Jehovah's Witnesses accused of covering up historic sex abuse - Telegraph

When someone is a victim of a crime they are not required to prove the crime before reporting it to the police. The police's job is to investigate, it's not the witness's job. If a child tells a parent that they were abused, do you think the right thing for the parent to do is report it to the police or is to do nothing or tell church leaders only?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not cool. I know people who have grown up in Jehova's Witness. As well as a therapist who is also an ex-Jehova's Witness who only specializes in helping people who have grown up in the movement. The damage from growing up in the movement is well known, well researched and predictable. There's many problems.

I am one of those. Am I "damaged?" How on earth would you/could you know?

JW doesn't exist in a vacuum. No matter how much JW tries to hide the truth the information is out there. JW is one of the most dangerous cults ever devised. Just the way it is organised and run is enough to show that it is psychologically damaging to it's members. They're playing with powerful psychological forces. It's a manipulation game and the people doing the manipulation don't understand they are. Nobody is mentally strong enough to survive it's influences. You won't start to heal unless you get away from them.

During the wars of the 20th century, not one person's blood has been shed by one of JWs.

Doesn't prove that the JW's are healthy people or that JW is a healthy organisation. I'd also claim that holding that up as a virtue adds to JW as a dangerous organisation. Let's just be happy that it's a small movement.

My marriage has lasted.

A long marriage isn't necessarily a good marriage. Lots of people stay married way longer than they should. I'm not saying you have a bad marriage. Just that the length of a marriage means nothing. I can't even count all the +40 women I've had sex with who came from long marriages before meeting me, and I taught them to enjoy sex for the first time. They had no idea it could be that good. There's loads of people who stay in emotionally dead relationships out of fear. Security and/or social pressure.

I have no delinquent nor illegitimate children. I have never been drunk, never used nor even introduced to drugs, never been in trouble with the law.

Look, I don't know you. Maybe. Maybe not. A well behaved child isn't necessarily a happy child. "Bad" behaviour is sometimes necessary for us to come into contact with our own emotions.

I have travelled to many parts of this country and to other countries. The hospitality has never cost me a dime. The love and support among JWs is incredible!

This I know, and this is genuine, and is something which is great about JW, and which they should be proud of. I know they have amazing meetings and a strong and vibrant community. But that combined with the shunning practice makes is nefarious. You can't treat people like family and only go half-way. The day JW's start following Jesus' example of compassion and forgiveness I'll start supporting them. Until then, not so much.

But one for instance, is their practice of shunning. It's systematic! Which is emotional abuse when done towards adults, but child abuse when done towards children. Google "conditional love" if you don't believe me. Mentally ill or mentally weak parents can sometimes condition their love toward their children to better control them. It works really well if you want to control your child. But it is severe mental abuse and always does a lot of damage. This would be true regardless if they're ever shunned or not. It's not something that anybody can ever fully heal from. And is encouraged and systematic in the movement.

All Jehova's Witnesses know the practice goes on. As long as they stay I think all Jehova's Witnesses are child abusers, or the very least accessories to it.

And all of this comes from your personal knowledge and experience - right? Can you prove any of that?

Obviously. But I don't have to. You know it's true as well. As does everybody. There's no point in trying to deny it.

As well as guilty of conspiring to psychologically abuse other adults. There's nothing acceptable about the practice. I know all their justifications for it. But they completely ignore basic human psychology. We are social beings. Our social community is important to members of our species. There's nothing more psychologically damaging to us than living in constant fear of being shunned by it. And let's be honest, nobody can live up to Christian moral standards. They're designed around shared human psychological weaknesses to ensure all humans are "sinners". So all Jehova's Witnesses will have have the fear. They will always feel they're not good enough and know they're not living up to the moral standards they should. Nobody could!

This practice in combination with the extreme ego-massaging and ego-inflating makes it evil. We're all suckers for praise and to hear that we're special and chosen. So that in combination with the shunning makes it so incredibly malicious. It's like it's designed to do maximum psychological damage. Which I suspect it is. You don't need to read much about Charles Taze Russel to figure out he was a con-man.

And you knew him personally - right? You were there when he conned somebody - right? You went over the court documents when he was convicted for his crimes - right?
Who do you think you are, man?

Cults have been studied extensively. We know the psychological mechanisms, and we know how people are suckered in. We don't need to know any people in an organisation to establish whether it's a cult or not. Just by analyzing it's structure it's clear. Because they all use the same exact methods. Be it Scientology, Raelians, Maoist rebels, Aum Shinri Kyo, Ku Klux Klan, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, JW and so on. There's been quite a few and we've become good at studying them. As well as dealing with the psychological damages they inflict.

Why do JWs expel people?
How many of those "former JWs" are sexually immoral people?
Sexual immorality is the most frequent cause of disfellowshipping among JWs.
What scriptural guidelines do we follow?

“. . .In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people,  not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

All that matters is how it affects human psychology. A cult is a cult no matter what scriptural support you use. There's loads of Christian congregations and denominations that aren't cults. So it's obviously not required.

It's a shame you don't understand how wicked and cruel disfellowshipping is. But I suspect you do. I don't think anybody can witness the anguish and not be affected by it. I've witnessed it. But from the other side. As a friend to a person who was disfellowed. They're all a big group of friends, all disfellowed JWs who have become a second family to one another. I've known them for over 20 years now. It's been a joy and privilege to seem them lose their emotional armor and open up.

The movement doesn't attract healthy and wholesome people.

We get all of our instructions in writing. Encouragement to do what is wrong or bad would be found there. The public is invited to examine our literature to attend our meetings, and to visit our website JW.ORG. We have no secret meetings, practices nor rituals, nor do we need any.
"ONE rotten apple spoils the whole barrel."

I challenge you to find a single violent, criminal, homosexual, lesbian, foul-mouthed, immoral, able-bodied person on welfare, etc, among JWs! That's the kind of people who are usually kicked out.

Since when is it immoral to be a homosexual? Are you living in the 19'th century still? It's hard enough to be homosexual as it is. The last thing they need is to get shunned by their parents. That is an immoral act. Being gay isn't.

YOU - try to prove what really "goes on" in the organization. And tell us how you really know - OK?

Like I said. I've seen it from the outside. Seen the result. Seen what it does to people once they manage to break free.

But it's not only that. There's miles of shelves of scholarly work done by psychology researchers who have studied JW specifically to learn why it is such a psychologically damaging organisation. None of this should be news to anybody? Right now JW and Scientology are the poster children for dangerous cults. They make ISIS look benevolent.

The bigger question is, how the hell have you managed to not know?!?

 

[wilson]

ALL accusations without proof are to be considered false.

No, that's not true. Insufficient evidence means unknown, not false.

When you said:

Add up the total of all sexual molestation accusations against JWs.
Next - see how many of those are based on repressed memories.

You didn't know this information yourself, did you?

Look - I am not reporting on the issue; YOU are. So, find out for yourself. I do not need that information - YOU do.
I already showed you how you can obtain it. You need to know what you are talking about.

I'll also ask again if you believe all accusations against JWs have been false?

You can ask, but my opinion is not important. I can ask if you think they are all true - right?
You are asking me to mount a defense and I already told you that I see no need to do so.
I am asking you to make sure you report the truth when you repeat accusations against anyone.

How about when a JW pleads guilty as in this case? Jehovah's Witnesses accused of covering up historic sex abuse - Telegraph

You can try and build your case by telling me how many confessions you know of. They are all in print and you have to do your own homework.

When someone is a victim of a crime they are not required to prove the crime before reporting it to the police.

But they ARE required to report the truth. Does that concern you?

The police's job is to investigate, it's not the witness's job.

What on earth are you talking about? A victim cannot be a witness at the same time. And...........
HOW do they go about finding the truth? This way?:
"Now, keep in mind, that in many circumstances, it is impossible for a child to supply details to events that never took place, so normally if proper interviewing techniques were used, the allegation would be shown to be false, but that is rarely the case. The detective may begin by educating the child with leading and suggestive questioning or by the use of anatomically correct dolls or anatomically correct drawings, where a child is asked to identify body parts and "show" where they have been touched. They may begin by telling the child, "I am here to protect you and nothing bad is ever going to happen to you again." "Do you know what good touch, bad touch and secret touch is?" Good touch is like if someone patted you on your head." "Bad touch is if someone touched you, like where your bathing suit covers you and secret touch is when someone touches you in a bad place and then tells you not to tell about it." Now, you said your daddy touched you and that was in a bad place, like where your bathing suit covers you, right?" That detective just educated the child as to exactly what he was looking for and actually prompted the child for what he expected them to say." http://www.paulstuckle.com/Informat...ildSexualAbuseAllegationsWhyLiesMultiply.aspx

If a child tells a parent that they were abused, do you think the right thing for the parent to do is report it to the police or is to do nothing or tell church leaders only?

No! I think the parent should find out if the story is true first. Sometimes they lie and that could hurt the accused seriously and needlessly.

http://thepolicenews.net/default.aspx?act=newsletter.aspx&category=News 1-2&newsletterid=42791

Take a good look at all of the contents of this web page - click on each title and learn something:
http://www.paulstuckle.com/Informat...ildSexualAbuseAllegationsWhyLiesMultiply.aspx

Information Center
Questions & Answers
Texas Court Process
Common Defenses
False Allegations
Consequences on Professional Licenses

Information Center
Articles
The Special Nature of Child Sexual Assault
The Elimination of Constitutional Rights
Changing the Rules to Convict
The Creation of a False Allegation
Rules for the Falsely Accused...
Charged with Child Sexual Abuse
Child Witness Suggestibility
Read More Articles on Child Sexual Abuse
The Special Nature of Domestic Violence...
What is NOT Domestic Violence
Who is the Real Victim Anyway?
Zero Tolerance & No-Drop Policies
The Domestic Violence Industry
Read More Articles on Domestic Violence

Client Testimonials
You will need truth, determination and Mr. Paul Stuckle, by your side, to get you through the worst time of your life...
Read more about Brad's experience here.

Inform yourself before you repeat accusations that are slanderous and harmful.

 

[wilson]

The movement doesn't attract healthy and wholesome people.

We get all of our instructions in writing. Encouragement to do what is wrong or bad would be found there. The public is invited to examine our literature to attend our meetings, and to visit our website JW.ORG. We have no secret meetings, practices nor rituals, nor do we need any.
"ONE rotten apple spoils the whole barrel."

I challenge you to find a single violent, criminal, homosexual, lesbian, foul-mouthed, immoral, able-bodied person on welfare, etc, among JWs! That's the kind of people who are usually kicked out.

Since when is it immoral to be a homosexual? Are you living in the 19'th century still? It's hard enough to be homosexual as it is. The last thing they need is to get shunned by their parents. That is an immoral act. Being gay isn't.

Since you have found nothing in our literature that encourages immoral, violent, dishonest or abusive behavior, I repeat my challenge.

 

[funinspace]

la-la-land...

I got thinking about how this chain of discussion got going, and remembered this comical comment:

The Biblical advice on human sexuality is just terrible advice. Following them is the best way to create an insecure sexually dysfunctional basket case, unable to feel their own body, and in fear about their own sexual urges.

Well, following the moral guidelines of the bible works well for us and you don't find any of those practicing loose conduct among us.
Maybe it doesn't work for Catholics and Protestants, but it certainly works for us.
These are the kinds of strong families you find in our ranks:
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/couples-parents/
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/

Now, wilson states that they kick such non-existent people out of their sect.

Why do JWs expel people?
How many of those "former JWs" are sexually immoral people?
Sexual immorality is the most frequent cause of disfellowshipping among JWs.
What scriptural guidelines do we follow?

Then wilson goes back to sort of suggesting they actually don’t exist. Wilson, if you kick people out for being ‘immoral’, then you do in fact have ‘immoral’ people in your sect. They may not be in your churches for long once discovered internally, but they are there at least until discovered. You seem to have a problem with the English language, unless you are operating a 21st century 1984 monitoring program over lording your members.

I challenge you to find a single violent, criminal, homosexual, lesbian, foul-mouthed, immoral, able-bodied person on welfare, etc, among JWs! That's the kind of people who are usually kicked out.