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If You Are Certain God Exists Why Prove It?

Timeless also means NOT affected by any time or change whilst still being able to think and make descisions.
So, which is it? You really must pick one or the other.

If time started at the universe's creation, then godguy existing before time means timeless-as-in-no-time, thus no change.

Why should I pick the underlined when the context you're portraying is physical structural change...as attributed to a physical universe?


If godguy was timeless to mean time-passed-but-godguy-is-eternal, then extending time eternally backwards means the universe extends eternally backwards. Meaning you either cannot have godguy creating the universe OR we don't need godguy creating an independently eternal universe

A newly physical structural universe... in this case the BB is NOT at all a confliction, which doesn't matter at all when it comes into existence ... at ANY POINT (timeless, no measurable reference) in Eternal. The context, Eternal = non physical = no physical restriction.
 
Why should I pick the underlined when the context you're portraying is physical structural change...as attributed to a physical universe?
What? Where do you get the idea that time refers to physical change?
Linear time is also necessary to consider something and come to a conclusion. Like, deciding yo make a world where there isn't one. No, this dodge fails.
If godguy was timeless to mean time-passed-but-godguy-is-eternal, then extending time eternally backwards means the universe extends eternally backwards. Meaning you either cannot have godguy creating the universe OR we don't need godguy creating an independently eternal universe

A newly physical structural universe... in this case the BB is NOT at all a confliction, which doesn't matter at all when it comes into existence ...at ANY POINT (timeless , no measure) in eternal. The context is Eternal = non physical.
Who says the universe was not physical before the big bang?
 
Nope, that is not plausible at all. It means “he” made a decision to create during a phase when nothing was able to change.
Otherwise, “he” could not decide to create and was merely Big Banged himself.

Time means change. To go from timeless to temporal requires a change. But without time, by definition, nothing changes.

You and your theists are just inventing definitions so you can make your god exist.
I can see why you’d need to do that because your first story has a major plot hole and you needed to plug it with something.

No time, “timeless” means no change. Not even a decision to change. No change.

Thats one use of timeless that you portray which I'll acknowledge as a fair point of view..as according to your particular philosophy.

Timeless also means NOT affected by any time or change whilst still being able to think and make descisions.

Cambridge Dictionary: lasting forever; example, never showing the effects of aging or ...having a value that is not limited to a particular period but will last for ever.

Time is meaningless in an Always Was/ Is or Eternal use in simple language understanding.

Time is our measurement of rates of change.

Absolutely, I concur. Living things grow old and die, things age and have chemical changes and giving aproximate ages to stars et...

If there is no change associated with God, God does not think or act.

Well this is were we get mixed up with the language use of 'no change' just as using timeless in a variety of contexts.. how one portrays it. Does no-change Only mean God must be inanimately "standing very very still" so to speak?

Thought and action has a beginning, a middle and and end.

Thought and action is time.

Indeed and they can come in at any point of eternity. Not arguing with action has a beginning etc..

A timless God is a God that does not think or act.

God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.
 
Without change, there is no time. Without time, no change exists.

IF you have a “timeless eternity,” THEN everything about it is always true.

It was always true that the god would decide to create the universe
.It was always true that the universe was going to be created
.. And it was always true that it was created

It was always true that the god would decide to create time
. It was always true that the god was going to create time
.. And it was always true that time was created.
...Hence it was always true that time existed.


Timeslessness, yes, INDEED, means that everything in the timelessness bubble is, YES, standing still.
Because it if it moving, then there are “befores” and “afters” of the movement, and therefore TIME.


Or are you imagining like in the marvel comics where Quicksilver slows everyone else down except himself and saves the day, while “Time In A Bottle” plays in the background. Is that your god story?

Nothing. Moves. In Timelessness.
 
I’m trying to imagine a change happening without time and it defies the definition of change.

How fast did that chemical reaction take?
I dunno, it just happened.
Well, did that chemical reaction happen?
I dunno, feels like it was always here.
So nothing happened?
Well, there was no “before” and no “after” so, I’m guessing that’s a big NO on the chemical reaction.
 
God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.

You don’t get to make stuff up.
Also, why are you refusing to discuss the KCA with wiploc? Why are you derailing and dodging to this “oh, and after we’re done with KCA, I’m going to insist that it means a god, one god, MY god, was the driving factor in a sentient Big Bang trigger and you need to concede that prior to us talking about whether the big bang had a sentient trigger.”


It’s a pretty transparent dodge. But I can see why you’d need to make it.
 
God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.

You don’t get to make stuff up.
Also, why are you refusing to discuss the KCA with wiploc? Why are you derailing and dodging to this “oh, and after we’re done with KCA, I’m going to insist that it means a god, one god, MY god, was the driving factor in a sentient Big Bang trigger and you need to concede that prior to us talking about whether the big bang had a sentient trigger.”


It’s a pretty transparent dodge. But I can see why you’d need to make it.

Make stuff up? lol this is typical of your responses. We have seen your making up stuff so to speak in your term, because...

IT'S ... your (plural) philosopy Versus mine/ours!

That is ALL it is!

Welcome Aboard, if you (plural) haven't realised!

Thats also a pathetic notion to say I "refuse" to discuss the KCA with wiploc (a new narrative you'll keep up with no doubt, like "dodging"). I suppose I am still quite new to the KCA and still discovering in comparison, BUT... that doesn't make me want to "refuse" in engaging in any of this discussion.
 
Thats also a pathetic notion to say I "refuse" to discuss the KCA with wiploc (a new narrative you'll keep up with no doubt, like "dodging"). I suppose I am still quite new to the KCA and still discovering in comparison, BUT... that doesn't make me want to "refuse" in engaging in any of this discussion.

My apologies. I mixed you up with remez. I am sorry for that, I should have been more carful who I was responding to . Please accept my apology for unwarranted remarks.
 
God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.

You don’t get to make stuff up.

Make stuff up? lol this is typical of your responses. We have seen your making up stuff so to speak in your term, because...

IT'S ... your (plural) philosopy Versus mine/ours!

That is ALL it is!

Welcome Aboard, if you (plural) haven't realised!

What I mean is that “time” has a specific actual meaning. And “timeless” also has a specific actual meaning if you are talking about physical phenomena, such as the beginning of the universe.

It is not possible to invent a new meaning of timeless that you use for “your use of the term” that avoids the ingerent conflicts in claiming that something exists outside of time but still has change occurring in it.

I mean, I guess, yes, you can make up a meaning of timelessness if you want to, but it will not take away “my version” of what time means, because I didn’t make up the definition, it is rooted in cause, effect, math, history and the way all matter and energy works as far as any human can show.

“Your philosophy” has a meaning that creates problems in your story. Those problems do not go away because you say, “this is the way I am using this term.” You may be trying to say that by defining the term this way, you would like to excuse yourself from answering these conflicts in your story, but that would be a dodge.

Call it whatever you want - but answer the conflicts in your story.
“Before Time” means perhaps “in a different time” or it means “earlier in this same time, but with a massive event in between” but it can never mean “outside of time” because you are claiming that things encountered a CHANGE during that period and that will never ever mean outside of time.

Maybe you are trying to say, “outside of the universe as we observe it”. Because that would be a more acurate representation of the universe after the big bang versus that before it, and it wouldn;t involve pretending that time stops.

God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.
And if that is really your story, I can start calling your god “Quicksilver” and using the Marvel Universe to understand him.
 
Make stuff up? lol this is typical of your responses. We have seen your making up stuff so to speak in your term, because...
nope. You're the one jumping back and forth between word definitions/usages, or makingbup entirely new definitions the way Superman gained siperpowers in the 70's: a nd one as needed by every plot twist.
IT'S ... your (plural) philosopy Versus mine/ours!

That is ALL it is!
no, it's not. You try to use some (but not all) science to pretend your philosophy is consistent with science. But you cannot use all science as dome is problemstic. And you cannot use terms vonsistently as that leads in directions you cannot tolerate.
So, we're trying to get straight answers and vonsistent eord usage, but that's not goingbto help your 'side.'
Thats also a pathetic notion to say I "refuse" to discuss the KCA with wiploc (a new narrative you'll keep up with no doubt, like "dodging").
You do have a history of playing keep away, and avoiding discussion of the natural consequences of your claims. My noticing your modus operandi doesn't make my 'narrative.'
I suppose I am still quite new to the KCA and still discovering in comparison, BUT... that doesn't make me want to "refuse" in engaging in any of this discussion.
Uh huh.
 
Time is our measurement of rates of change.

Absolutely, I concur. Living things grow old and die, things age and have chemical changes and giving aproximate ages to stars et...

If there is no change associated with God, God does not think or act.

Well this is were we get mixed up with the language use of 'no change' just as using timeless in a variety of contexts.. how one portrays it. Does no-change Only mean God must be inanimately "standing very very still" so to speak?

Thought and action has a beginning, a middle and and end.

Thought and action is time.

Indeed and they can come in at any point of eternity. Not arguing with action has a beginning etc..

A timless God is a God that does not think or act.

God is not affected by time is my use of the term timeless especially in this/our time-reference FOR this physical universe, contained from therein the BB event.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have 'not being effected by time,' timeless, and thinking, acting and creating, which is time.

It's one or the other. If God is outside of time, timeless, God cannot think, act or create...which is necessarily being involved with time.

You appear to want it both ways at the same time.
 
The bible also says beware of vain philosophies (like atheism)
Beware means Be Aware.

LOL. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is vain.

Its so funny with Christians upholding humility as a virtue while being so damn cocksure they're correct on the existence of God. There's nothing humble about that. Also they believe that God is ineffable. So they obviously also get it. It's in their own book 😂
 
The bible also says beware of vain philosophies (like atheism)
Beware means Be Aware.

LOL. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is vain.

Its so funny with Christians upholding humility as a virtue while being so damn cocksure they're correct on the existence of God. There's nothing humble about that. Also they believe that God is ineffable. So they obviously also get it. It's in their own book 😂
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.
 
The bible also says beware of vain philosophies (like atheism)
Beware means Be Aware.

LOL. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is vain.

Its so funny with Christians upholding humility as a virtue while being so damn cocksure they're correct on the existence of God. There's nothing humble about that. Also they believe that God is ineffable. So they obviously also get it. It's in their own book 😂


Not tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or peril or the sword. Nor height nor depth nor any other creature neither death nor life neither angels nor principalities neither the present nor the future nor any powers...

Yeah, I guess that does sound a little arrogant.
 
The bible also says beware of vain philosophies (like atheism)
Beware means Be Aware.

LOL. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is vain.

Its so funny with Christians upholding humility as a virtue while being so damn cocksure they're correct on the existence of God. There's nothing humble about that. Also they believe that God is ineffable. So they obviously also get it. It's in their own book ������
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.

I've actually switched my position on this. I no longer see religion as something ancient that used to work. I think it still works. And is necessary for the civilised world. The problem is science and scientism. Today we live in well educated highly scientifically minded society. At some point in history (300 - 150 years ago) we stopped treating religious language as art and poetry and started treating it as a scientific textbook. It's a sciencefication of religion. That's what creationism/ID is about. It's dumb.

I see the religious mindset, as just that. It's a mindset. If we have that mindset we focus less on bullshit in life and more on the stuff that is important, ie family, friendships and having good relations with the people in your life. A major point of religion is to build community. And working hard and not whining so much. Being grateful for what we got. To stop being bitter about the people who have hurt us in the past.

Nobody knows the meaning of life. It's an unsovable problem. Who created all this? Who knows? And why? Who knows? Spending time on those questions is a waste of time. You have a job to do. Do that instead. Focus on feeding your family. That's why religon makes these blanket statements of what to believe (ie myth). I think the Bible is giving us a nod and a wink. The authors of it knew it's not litterally true. I mean... God is "ineffable". It's mentioned many times. That means Christians aren't supposed to take this so seriously. That's the point IMHO. Not to mention all the logical paradoxes of the Christian God concept. If the Biblical authors could read and write, they must have gone to school around 50 BC and if they did they must have known Greek philosophy forwards and backwards. They knew the things they were writing about God made no sense. And that's the point. It's a belief in the belief of God. Not an actual belief in God. God is a psychological tool with with to keep communities together. And I think they knew it while writing it.

I suspect most Christians were smarter about their faith 2000 years ago than they are today. They would have been. It was a pagan world and pagan theology is more sophisticated than Christian theology. The near total domination of Christianity for thousands of years made it stupid. And the near total domination of the scientific thinking of today made Christianity even more stupid. But Christianity isn't stupid. I think it's really clever. But we need to take it for what it is.

No, God doesn't really exist. If it did it would be effable. Existence assumes we can describe it and define it. If we can't define it then it doesn't exist. But that's not what religion is about. It's not science. So it's not a problem for religion.
 
The bible also says beware of vain philosophies (like atheism)
Beware means Be Aware.

LOL. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is vain.

Its so funny with Christians upholding humility as a virtue while being so damn cocksure they're correct on the existence of God. There's nothing humble about that. Also they believe that God is ineffable. So they obviously also get it. It's in their own book ??????
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.

To me a serious issue with this position is that human behaviour doesn't work on the species level - we don't do things for the good of the species, we do things with macro-effects that encourage reproductive success for individuals, and further genes (which Dawkins argued is the basic unit of selection).

This means that religion needs to be understood for it's effects on the individual, not the species. In that context my argument would be pretty simple - fundamentally, religion makes life more psychologically bearable for the individual, which would make those people more likely to have kids. Ask yourself, who is more likely to have kids - the PhD grad grad who realizes that this is all random cruelty, or the devout Christian who believes that God will help / assist / it's all God's plan. Now extrapolate what kind of macro belief systems would evolve in a world where the majority of people who reproduced thought like that.

This is why I don't think that religion is a legacy behaviour, or ever going away, because it has a positive reproductive impact.
 
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.

To me a serious issue with this position is that human behaviour doesn't work on the species level - we don't do things for the good of the species, we do things with macro-effects that encourage reproductive success for individuals, and further genes (which Dawkins argued is the basic unit of selection).

This means that religion needs to be understood for it's effects on the individual, not the species. In that context my argument would be pretty simple - fundamentally, religion makes life more psychologically bearable for the individual, which would make those people more likely to have kids. Ask yourself, who is more likely to have kids - the PhD grad grad who realizes that this is all random cruelty, or the devout Christian who believes that God will help / assist / it's all God's plan. Now extrapolate what kind of macro belief systems would evolve in a world where the majority of people who reproduced thought like that.

This is why I don't think that religion is a legacy behaviour, or ever going away, because it has a positive reproductive impact.
I think it's the powerful emotions that have the positive reproductive impact, not religion. How would you explain the historical connection between religion and celibacy?

Most likely religion affords the practitioner an alter ego, allows them to pretend they are something else, a superhero, a god, an immortal with special powers that defy reality, a soul. Psychologically this can be quite healthy both mentally and behaviorally. And religion isn't needed to do that. Perhaps religion was simply the most common and accessible conduit for this process. Maybe this is why "religious" people score higher on certain tests that measure quality of life. So it's likely not religion per se but a mental process that helps get one through life's difficulties.
 
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.

I've actually switched my position on this. I no longer see religion as something ancient that used to work. I think it still works. And is necessary for the civilised world. The problem is science and scientism. Today we live in well educated highly scientifically minded society. At some point in history (300 - 150 years ago) we stopped treating religious language as art and poetry and started treating it as a scientific textbook. It's a sciencefication of religion. That's what creationism/ID is about. It's dumb.

I see the religious mindset, as just that. It's a mindset. If we have that mindset we focus less on bullshit in life and more on the stuff that is important, ie family, friendships and having good relations with the people in your life. A major point of religion is to build community. And working hard and not whining so much. Being grateful for what we got. To stop being bitter about the people who have hurt us in the past.

Nobody knows the meaning of life. It's an unsovable problem. Who created all this? Who knows? And why? Who knows? Spending time on those questions is a waste of time. You have a job to do. Do that instead. Focus on feeding your family. That's why religon makes these blanket statements of what to believe (ie myth). I think the Bible is giving us a nod and a wink. The authors of it knew it's not litterally true. I mean... God is "ineffable". It's mentioned many times. That means Christians aren't supposed to take this so seriously. That's the point IMHO. Not to mention all the logical paradoxes of the Christian God concept. If the Biblical authors could read and write, they must have gone to school around 50 BC and if they did they must have known Greek philosophy forwards and backwards. They knew the things they were writing about God made no sense. And that's the point. It's a belief in the belief of God. Not an actual belief in God. God is a psychological tool with with to keep communities together. And I think they knew it while writing it.

I suspect most Christians were smarter about their faith 2000 years ago than they are today. They would have been. It was a pagan world and pagan theology is more sophisticated than Christian theology. The near total domination of Christianity for thousands of years made it stupid. And the near total domination of the scientific thinking of today made Christianity even more stupid. But Christianity isn't stupid. I think it's really clever. But we need to take it for what it is.

No, God doesn't really exist. If it did it would be effable. Existence assumes we can describe it and define it. If we can't define it then it doesn't exist. But that's not what religion is about. It's not science. So it's not a problem for religion.

Scientific thinking doesn't require that I give up my ability to pretend. Religion is a kind of rudimentary scientific process in that we try to understand phenomena through this religious lens. But then along comes scientific skills and we understand it just fine without all the religious woo.

But my imagination is still sound, my ability to get outside that scientific box has not been compromised. Science is actually far more complex and complicated in how it works, requiring far more thought, at least if one is curious about how that apple arrived on their counter or why our bodies are 70% water and break so easily.
 
It's why I see religion as a legacy behavior from a time when our species was near universally bipolar. Ironically, such a condition would have given our species a tremendous survival advantage, unlike presently where we live in much larger social groups. People who are very religious don't see themselves as the problem they ostensibly are trying to fix.

To me a serious issue with this position is that human behaviour doesn't work on the species level - we don't do things for the good of the species, we do things with macro-effects that encourage reproductive success for individuals, and further genes (which Dawkins argued is the basic unit of selection).

This means that religion needs to be understood for it's effects on the individual, not the species. In that context my argument would be pretty simple - fundamentally, religion makes life more psychologically bearable for the individual, which would make those people more likely to have kids. Ask yourself, who is more likely to have kids - the PhD grad grad who realizes that this is all random cruelty, or the devout Christian who believes that God will help / assist / it's all God's plan. Now extrapolate what kind of macro belief systems would evolve in a world where the majority of people who reproduced thought like that.

This is why I don't think that religion is a legacy behaviour, or ever going away, because it has a positive reproductive impact.
I think it's the powerful emotions that have the positive reproductive impact, not religion. How would you explain the historical connection between religion and celibacy?

There isn't a historical connection between religion and celibacy, except for in a select few people in religious hierarchies. In fact, encouraging reproduction is pretty central to most, if not all, religions.

Most likely religion affords the practitioner an alter ego, allows them to pretend they are something else, a superhero, a god, an immortal with special powers that defy reality, a soul. Psychologically this can be quite healthy both mentally and behaviorally. And religion isn't needed to do that. Perhaps religion was simply the most common and accessible conduit for this process. Maybe this is why "religious" people score higher on certain tests that measure quality of life. So it's likely not religion per se but a mental process that helps get one through life's difficulties.

I don't think you're following my argument. I'd agree that it's emotion that has a positive reproductive impact, but you can't distinguish that emotion from the belief systems that are bred from that psychological make-up. The belief and the mental configuration that gives rise to the belief are one, they aren't separate phenomena, and they have a synergistic effect on each other. That's why religion shouldn't be looked at as some kind of errant, accidental belief that is an artifact of antiquity. Because the mental make up that breeds religious thought is adaptive, this emotional, as opposed to rational thinking has more benefit to the individual.

So given that we shouldn't expect our species to ever transcend religion. And the only reason a bit of a dent has been made recently, is because we actually managed an alternative explanation empirically. But still, I'd argue that most people on the planet are superstitious to some degree.
 
Is that your attempt at humor?
Because….That is more than what you asked for and now you want to move the goal posts.
The field goal is still easy. Only about 5 yards further than the easy extra point you were asking for.
Beginning to end………………BGV
“Many inflating spacetimes are likely to violate the weak energy condition, a key assumption of singularity theorems. Here we offer a simple kinematical argument, requiring no energy condition, that a cosmological model which is inflating – or just expanding sufficiently fast – must be incomplete in null and timelike past directions. Specifically, we obtain a bound on the integral of the Hubble parameter over a past-directed timelike or null geodesic. Thus inflationary models require physics other than inflation to describe the past boundary of the inflating region of spacetime.
…………………………
Whatever the possibilities for the boundary, it is clear that unless the averaged expansion condition can somehow be avoided for all past-directed geodesics, inflation alone is not sufficient to provide a complete description of the Universe, and some new physics is necessary in order to determine the correct conditions at the boundary [20]. This is the chief result of our paper.”

Vilenkin went on the paraphrase…...
”It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning”
(Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176).
Or years later from his paper presented at Hawkings 70th birthday ……

abstract…..
“One of the most basic questions in cosmology is whether the universe had a beginning or has simply existed forever. It was addressed in the singularity theorems of Penrose and Hawking [1], with the conclusion that the initial singularity is not avoidable. These theorems rely on the strong energy condition and on certain assumptions about the global structure of spacetime. There are, however, three popular scenarios which circumvent these theorems: eternal inflation, a cyclic universe, and an “emergent” universe which exists for eternity as a static seed before expanding. Here we shall argue that none of these scenarios can actually be past-eternal.”
beginning
“I. Introduction. Inflationary cosmological models [1, 2, 3] are generically eternal to the future [4, 5]. In these models, the Universe consists of post-inflationary, thermalized regions coexisting with still-inflating ones. In comoving coordinates the thermalized regions grow in time and are joined by new thermalized regions, so the comoving volume of the inflating regions vanishes as t → ∞. Nonetheless, the inflating regions expand so fast that their physical volume grows exponentially with time. As a result, there is never a time when the Universe is completely thermalized. In such spacetimes, it is natural to ask if the Universe could also be past-eternal. If it could, eternal inflation would provide a viable model of the Universe with no initial singularity. The Universe would never come into existence. It would simply exist.”
Conclude…………
“…….3 Did the universe have a beginning? At this point, it seems that the answer to this question is probably yes.2 Here we have addressed three scenarios which seemed to offer a way to avoid a beginning, and have found that none of them can actually be eternal in the past. Both eternal inflation and cyclic universe scenarios have Hav > 0, which means that they must be past-geodesically incomplete. We have also examined a simple emergent universe model, and concluded that it cannot escape quantum collapse. Even considering more general emergent universe models, there do not seem to be any matter sources that admit solutions that are immune to collapse.”
next....
In the ….disturbing implications of a cosmological constant
Basically these guys were saying the either dark matter doesn’t exist or else…..
The other “……possibility is an unknown agent intervened in the evolution, and for reasons of its own …”

But dark matter does exist……which was in one of the others I cited…..
“We propose a comprehensive theory of dark matter that explains the recent proliferation of unexpected observations in high-energy astrophysics. Cosmic ray spectra from ATIC and PAMELA require a WIMP with mass Mχ ∼ 500 − 800 GeV that annihilates into leptons at a level well above that expected from a thermal relic. Signals from WMAP and EGRET reinforce this interpretation. Limits on ¯p and π 0 -γ’s constrain the hadronic channels allowed for dark matter. Taken together, we argue these facts imply the presence of a new force in the dark sector, with a Compton wavelength m−1 φ > ∼ 1 GeV−1 . The long range allows a Sommerfeld enhancement to boost the annihilation cross section as required, without altering the weak-scale annihilation cross section during dark matter freeze-out in the early universe.”

That was very brief but then again you were moving the goal posts. Thus that was good enough for now. Because I don’t trust you won’t childishly move the goalposts again. So if you want to discuss one further in depth then let’s look at either of the “Vilenkin” papers I cited….bc I like Vilenkin. The other two fit better with fine tuning anyway.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0110012.pdf
or
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4658.pdf
:cool:
 
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