Infinite Past

[untermensche]

If Presentism is true, this ever changing moment of existence need not necessarily have a beginning, so Presentism can be something eternal.

Pretending things can exist with no beginning is a form of religion. It is not rational.

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It is you that says that it is not possible , that there are no real infinites, thus it is up to you to prove that.

It is always up to those who claim something is real to prove it.

If they can't the rational conclusion is it is not.

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Resorting to saying ''imaginary'' is your claim. Eternity is a valid concept. We know change occurs, we know that we define rates of change in terms of time. We know that time is relative. We don't know if time had a beginning or not. If time had no beginning, it is reasonable to assume eternity exists.

You are still just waving your arms in denial.

Eternity is an imaginary concept. It can't be shown to be real in any way.

As imaginary as the human soul.

 

[DBT]

Pretending things can exist with no beginning is a form of religion. It is not rational.

Only to someone like yourself, where anything you don't happen to like you label irrational. That being a typical example irrationality.

Eternity is an imaginary concept. It can't be shown to be real in any way.

As a concept it is not imaginary. The concept is reasonable. It is possible that something rather than nothing has always existed.

If you can't accept an eternal universe, multiverse, branes or whatever, you are faced with the problem of a beginning to something from absolutely nothing...how do you feel about that? I suppose you accept or reject on the basis of how you like the idea, how appealing it is to you...

As imaginary as the human soul.

That's no comparison, we experience existence and change on a daily basis. So we know that unlike the idea of soul that the world and self exist.

 

[untermensche]

Eternity is an imaginary concept. It can't be shown to be real in any way.

As a concept it is not imaginary. The concept is reasonable. It is possible that something rather than nothing has always existed.

If you can't accept an eternal universe, multiverse, branes or whatever, you are faced with the problem of a beginning to something from absolutely nothing...how do you feel about that? I suppose you accept or reject on the basis of how you like the idea, how appealing it is to you...

We have methods of testing whether concepts are real or imaginary.

So if somebody says the concept of god is real we tell them the burden is on them to prove it. Otherwise we tell them they are deluded.

If we are rational and treat concepts equally we do the same for all concepts.

Including eternity. There is nothing special about this concept that gets a pass.

So the rational mind considers eternity imaginary until somebody can prove it is real.

Now this is just if we want to be consistent and rational.

If we want to wave our arms we treat concepts differently.

As imaginary as the human soul.

That's no comparison, we experience existence and change on a daily basis. So we know that unlike the idea of soul that the world and self exist.

We experience nothing like eternity. We experienced a start for one thing and we will have a finish.

You can't just extend the present moment out to infinity as if you are some god. Infinity is an imaginary concept. It is not real.

It is irrational to apply the concept of infinity to any real thing. It only has use with imaginary things like points or numbers. But not on it's own. On it's own it is irrational. As irrational as zero. You have to combine it with other concepts like limits to make use if it.

Applying infinity to the universe is about as irrational as a person could get.

It is like trying to apply the concept of zero to the universe. Or apply the concept of "all knowing" to the universe. It makes no sense.

 

[DBT]

Pretending things can exist with no beginning is a form of religion. It is not rational.

Virtual particles pop into existence where no particles existed a moment ago...you have no idea.

 

[untermensche]

Pretending things can exist with no beginning is a form of religion. It is not rational.

Virtual particles pop into existence where no particles existed a moment ago...you have no idea.

That's called a beginning.

 

[DBT]

As a concept it is not imaginary. The concept is reasonable. It is possible that something rather than nothing has always existed.

If you can't accept an eternal universe, multiverse, branes or whatever, you are faced with the problem of a beginning to something from absolutely nothing...how do you feel about that? I suppose you accept or reject on the basis of how you like the idea, how appealing it is to you...

We have methods of testing whether concepts are real or imaginary.

So if somebody says the concept of god is real we tell them the burden is on them to prove it. Otherwise we tell them they are deluded.

Still no analogy. We have no experience with the existence of a God or gods but we do have experience with change/time. We don't know whether time had a beginning or not.

If we are rational and treat concepts equally we do the same for all concepts.

Then you should apply the same standards to your claims, the concept of autonomous consciousness, etc, which you don't because you happen to find these appealing.

Including eternity. There is nothing special about this concept that gets a pass.

Nobody said it does, but it appears that your own favourite concepts do get a special pass.

So the rational mind considers eternity imaginary until somebody can prove it is real.

Except for your own. And you are still left with an unexplained beginning to time.

We experience nothing like eternity. We experienced a start for one thing and we will have a finish.

How do you think time got started? Can you say?

 

[DBT]

Virtual particles pop into existence where no particles existed a moment ago...you have no idea.

That's called a beginning.

The concept of eternity is no stranger than from something from nothing, nor is eternity outside of the realm of what is possible. You have no idea.

 

[untermensche]

We have methods of testing whether concepts are real or imaginary.

So if somebody says the concept of god is real we tell them the burden is on them to prove it. Otherwise we tell them they are deluded.

Still no analogy. We have no experience with the existence of a God or gods but we do have experience with change/time. We don't know whether time had a beginning or not.

ALL concepts must meet the same standards.

You merely have one standard for some concepts and another standard for others. That is the definition of irrational.

All concepts must be demonstrated to be real before we can rationally say they are.

This handwaving of "analogy analogy analogy" is not an argument. It is just demanding to have double standards.

So the rational mind considers eternity imaginary until somebody can prove it is real.

Except for your own. And you are still left with an unexplained beginning to time.

We can't invoke imaginary concepts like infinity to explain real problems.

It is simply invoking magic.

Eternity is a religious concept. It is the last resort of a bad argument.

The advocate for religion says the universe needs a beginning. All effects need a cause. And then posits a god as an explanation.

But the philosopher says: But what about this god? Does it not also need a beginning?

And the advocate for religion says: No this god is eternal. A worthless cheap nonsensical explanation.

It makes no more sense when somebody tries to apply it to the universe.

 

[DBT]

Your first false assumption - Eternity is not intrinsically a religious concept even though religion happens to use it.

Nor is the concept necessarily related to the idea of God.

Eternity/infinity is related to time/space.

The rest of your post is just more of your window dressing, making claims that suit your own beliefs.

 

[DBT]

We experience nothing like eternity. We experienced a start for one thing and we will have a finish.

How do you think time got started? Can you say?

Mr Untermensche, are you ignoring this point? This is relevant to your claims.

 

[untermensche]

Your first false assumption - Eternity is not intrinsically a religious concept even though religion happens to use it.

Nor is the concept necessarily related to the idea of God.

Eternity/infinity is related to time/space.

The rest of your post is just more of your window dressing, making claims that suit your own beliefs.

You are not addressing any arguments. You are dodging them with the nonsense claim of "window dressing".

Try to comprehend.

ALL concepts are considered imaginary until they are proven real. ALL of them.

Not just the concepts you don't like.

It is up to YOU to prove eternity is real or the rational assumption is it is not.

YOU have the burden to demonstrate concepts you say are real are in fact real.

Your assurances that it is real are not good enough.

What is your proof? Saying there is the present moment is not any kind of proof of eternity. You have to prove time goes on without end to claim eternity is real. You can't merely claim it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Do you think that the idea that the past might be infinite is a logical contradiction because by definition the past ends with the present moment?
EB

Isn't this just a version of Zeno's Arrow paradox?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes#Arrow_paradox

Infinity is a mathematical term. We've never managed to measure it empirically in the real world. How could we?

So are you talking about appearance of infinity or what? It's not clear.

 

[untermensche]

We experience nothing like eternity. We experienced a start for one thing and we will have a finish.

How do you think time got started? Can you say?

Mr Untermensche, are you ignoring this point? This is relevant to your claims.

Can you say?

It has nothing to do with my claim.

My claim is you can't just willy nilly apply imaginary concepts like infinity to the universe. It is irrational.

 

[DBT]

Can you say?

It has nothing to do with my claim.

My claim is you can't just willy nilly apply imaginary concepts like infinity to the universe. It is irrational.

It has everything to do with your claim about everything having a beginning, or have you conveniently forgotten that/

Please answer the question;

How do you think time got started? Can you say?

Mr Untermensche, are you ignoring this point? This is relevant to your claims

 

[untermensche]

You are not addressing any arguments. You are dodging them with the nonsense claim of "window dressing".

Try to comprehend.

ALL concepts are considered imaginary until they are proven real. ALL of them.

Not just the concepts you don't like.

It is up to YOU to prove eternity is real or the rational assumption is it is not.

YOU have the burden to demonstrate concepts you say are real are in fact real.

Your assurances that it is real are not good enough.

What is your proof? Saying there is the present moment is not any kind of proof of eternity. You have to prove the current moment goes on without end to claim eternity is real. You can't merely claim it.

You ignore anything I say.

Please answer the question;

How do you think time got started? Can you say?

Mr Untermensche, are you ignoring this point? This is relevant to your claims

Can you say?

Now address your irrational application of an imaginary concept to the real universe.

 

[DBT]

Can you say?

Now address your irrational application of an imaginary concept to the real universe.

The concept of eternity is not imaginary. Please pay attention, whether time is eternal or not has not been proven. This is an issue for physics to determine.

Now, Mr Untermensche, you are the one claiming that all things must have a beginning, so the question stands;


How do you think time got started? And from what? Some other form of existence? No time? Nothing?.....what?

You need to explain your claims.

 

[untermensche]

The concept of eternity is not imaginary.

The idea of infinite time is as imaginary as infinite size, or infinite wisdom, or infinite mercy, or infinite speed, or infinite density.

These are all imaginary concepts.

Again, ALL concepts are considered imaginary until they are shown in some way to be real, either through direct evidence or by having evidence of an effect.

There is no evidence of eternity.

There is no evidence of an effect from eternity.

The concept is imaginary.

Your empty claims that it is real are the babbling of a child.

You do not get to claim things into existence. You have to prove they exist in some way.

You have ALL the burden here. No different from the person claiming their god is real.

 

[untermensche]

Is there anybody who actually thinks that when we hear some claim that something is real the burden is on the skeptic to prove the claimed entity is not real?

With all claims that something is real the burden is totally on the person making the claim.

And the observation that something exists is not proof or argument of any kind that it is eternal.

 

[DBT]

Is there anybody who actually thinks that when we hear some claim that something is real the burden is on the skeptic to prove the claimed entity is not real?

With all claims that something is real the burden is totally on the person making the claim.

And the observation that something exists is not proof or argument of any kind that it is eternal.

You are making claims. You are being asked to explain and justify your own claims.

The concept of eternity is not imaginary.

The idea of infinite time is as imaginary as infinite size, or infinite wisdom, or infinite mercy, or infinite speed, or infinite density.

These are all imaginary concepts.

Again, ALL concepts are considered imaginary until they are shown in some way to be real, either through direct evidence or by having evidence of an effect.

There is no evidence of eternity.

There is no evidence of an effect from eternity.

The concept is imaginary.

Your empty claims that it is real are the babbling of a child.

You do not get to claim things into existence. You have to prove they exist in some way.

You have ALL the burden here. No different from the person claiming their god is real.

I said nothing about ''evidence of eternity,'' that is your strawman. Read more carefully.

You are avoiding the issue.

You claim that all things must have a beginning. Now, in relation to your claim that time must have a beginning, you need to explain how time time began....what was there before time began? Something? Nothing?

Again, in relation to your belief, what was there before time began....was there anything before time began (your claim) or nothing before time began?

Can you explain?

Please do not avoid the question.

 

[untermensche]

You are making claims. You are being asked to explain and justify your own claims.

Are you nuts?

YOU are claiming some imaginary concept is actually a real entity.

YOU are making the claim here.

I am saying that all such claims need proof or we dismiss them with the wave of the hand.

What is your proof?