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Infinte Regress Timeline...

You keep talking about truth and perfection as if those are properties of the model. They are not. The reason why the model works is that if not then evolution would have discarded of us a long time ago.

Once they figure out what the difference is between what is life and what isn't, then I might accept that there is some other reason for why we do what we do. But until then, I can only see it all as one huge dynamic system working off of some physical laws.

We are a subjective system in all of this. Our models are system too, and they became what they became because they were functions of what was in its environment.
 
You keep talking about truth and perfection as if those are properties of the model. They are not. The reason why the model works is that if not then evolution would have discarded of us a long time ago.

Once they figure out what the difference is between what is life and what isn't, then I might accept that there is some other reason for why we do what we do. But until then, I can only see it all as one huge dynamic system working off of some physical laws.

We are a subjective system in all of this. Our models are system too, and they became what they became because they were functions of what was in its environment.

Your point being?
 
All I am saying is that the input influences what the product/creation is going to be.

Here's an analogy. To me it is like adding an ingredient into a pasta sauce. The whole system changes because of the input.

Pasta sauce is a passive mixture of ingredients. A brain is an active "machine".

Actually, the brain is not like a machine that performs the same way each time the same input is used. Every input actually changes the way that the brain functions. If the same input is used over and over again, the brain changes a little each time. If I watch a movie that I haven't seen before, my brain will react differently than if I watch it again right after.

The brain decides how it will handle incoming information. The incoming information does not decide how it will be handled or what it will be turned into.

The input and the brain change together.

Once you have something like a brain you have something new in the universe. Something that decides for itself how it will act.
Is this free will?

How on Earth do you keep thinking that I think that colour is an input or somewhere outside of the brain. We have been over this so many times that I actually thought you were trolling. Please pay closer attention to what I am saying.

Then take the next logical step. If color does not exist in the world it is therefore something a brain creates whole. There is nothing forcing evolving brains to create color. It is pure happenstance. There are no "particles" responsible for colors. There are only brains doing what they have evolved to be able to do.

Brain + input = colour. The brain alone does not equal colour. I would probably have to see light at some point in my life to experience colour.

The key point is not that brains create color and therefore we have this entity "color" that exists yet has no material existence.

The key point is that color is something completely new that the universe couldn't have caused because it only exists in minds. A universe devoid of color can't cause color. There is no possible mechanism.

Do you think that if someone forced your eyes open and showed you a red apple that you wouldn't experience red? Sorry, but we don't have that much control yet.

It doesn't control the process; it starts it.

Random chance (mutation) starts it.

Oh god, you know what I meant. In a specific instance it causes it.

The external world is not guiding evolution or pushing evolution in any specific direction. Evolving life is moving out in many directions. Only some of these directions survive. That is a failure to adapt to changing environments, not an existing environment forcing change.

I hope I read this wrong. The environment is a huge part of evolution because it causes many of the mutations by way of radiation.

Okay, then I don't know where else you can go other than accept that models have truth about nature inherent to them.

They are abstractions we use to make predictions. Nature is nowhere an equation and something making calculations desperately trying to solve the equation to make adjustments. Nature has no need of equations and does not operate using them.

The only truth inherent in the models is that they can make predictions. The way they do this has nothing to do with how the universe operates.
The environment's equations are the original equations that we transcribed into symbols.
 
Once they figure out what the difference is between what is life and what isn't, then I might accept that there is some other reason for why we do what we do. But until then, I can only see it all as one huge dynamic system working off of some physical laws.

We are a subjective system in all of this. Our models are system too, and they became what they became because they were functions of what was in its environment.

Your point being?

I am saying that our models arose because they are functions (of functions of functions of functions...) of things that happened in the environment.
 
Your point being?

I am saying that our models arose because they are functions (of functions of functions of functions...) of things that happened in the environment.

But that is not what you seem to want to say. You seem there to be some magic interconnectness of reality and our models.
There is one: evolution, but no other.

There are no colors out there, there are no numbers out there, there are no objects out there. There is no truth out there. They are all parts of our models.
 
I am saying that our models arose because they are functions (of functions of functions of functions...) of things that happened in the environment.

But that is not what you seem to want to say. You seem there to be some magic interconnectness of reality and our models.
There is one: evolution, but no other.

There are no colors out there, there are no numbers out there, there are no objects out there. There is no truth out there. They are all parts of our models.

Our models come because of what is out there. For you, a model in another person's head is a model that is out there. You have to accept this or else you are venturing into solipsism.

As an important side, what do you think is the absolute minimum required for the experience of green for the shortest amount of time possible? Let's say it is process A in space B. Is this process not just a lifeless process dependent on inputs and a supporting structure?
 
Actually, the brain is not like a machine that performs the same way each time the same input is used. Every input actually changes the way that the brain functions. If the same input is used over and over again, the brain changes a little each time. If I watch a movie that I haven't seen before, my brain will react differently than if I watch it again right after.

A change in mood or knowledge is not a change in the way the brain functions. Learning is a change in memory and decision making processes, but it is not a change in the way a brain functions.

Brains are living organs and age. They also require nutrition. These things effect how a brain functions, not experience. Experience changes what a brain functions with, not how it functions.

The way a brain functions is determined by genetics, not the external world.

Once you have something like a brain you have something new in the universe. Something that decides for itself how it will act.

Is this free will?

The brain does what it does according to genetic "programming". That is not behaving "freely".

The brain creates green under certain circumstances. It will always create green under those circumstances. This is not freedom.

Brain + input = colour. The brain alone does not equal colour. I would probably have to see light at some point in my life to experience colour.

Not true at all. If we could excite the proper pathways in the optic nerve we could cause the brain to create color.

A person would not necessarily need to be born with eyes to experience color. As long as the proper nerves could be stimulated in the proper fashion. Or even if the proper parts of the brain were stimulated in the proper way.

And of course we can imagine color without any color stimulus. I can imagine a big red flaming sun with my eyes closed.

The key point is not that brains create color and therefore we have this entity "color" that exists yet has no material existence.

The key point is that color is something completely new that the universe couldn't have caused because it only exists in minds. A universe devoid of color can't cause color. There is no possible mechanism.

Do you think that if someone forced your eyes open and showed you a red apple that you wouldn't experience red? Sorry, but we don't have that much control yet.

This is after billions of years of evolution.

But evolving organisms don't necessarily evolve eyes or the ability to create colors. Those things arise by chance, not because the world is forcing evolution in any particular direction.

Random chance (mutation) starts it.

Oh god, you know what I meant. In a specific instance it causes it.

You're talking about a stimulus, not a cause. The cause is evolution and random mutation. This causes the stimulus to have an effect. The stimulus is not the ultimate cause of anything.

I hope I read this wrong. The environment is a huge part of evolution because it causes many of the mutations by way of radiation.

Mutations occur randomly and for many reasons. Many are errors in replication. The vast majority are either harmful or have no effect.

But saying radiation can cause mutations is not saying radiation is guiding evolution in any way. Nothing is guiding evolution. Evolving life interacts with changing environments, but the environment is not guiding the process. It is just one factor determining which things that arise randomly survive.

They are abstractions we use to make predictions. Nature is nowhere an equation and something making calculations desperately trying to solve the equation to make adjustments. Nature has no need of equations and does not operate using them.

The only truth inherent in the models is that they can make predictions. The way they do this has nothing to do with how the universe operates.

The environment's equations are the original equations that we transcribed into symbols.

There are no equations beyond animals that invent them. Things are moving the way they move because of inherent properties, not equations.

We abstract these inherent properties into numbers and mathematical functions so we can make predictions.

But there is a difference between our abstractions and the real thing. They are not close to being the same thing. Equations are not behavior based on inherent properties. To think they are is to not understand either.
 
A change in mood or knowledge is not a change in the way the brain functions. Learning is a change in memory and decision making processes, but it is not a change in the way a brain functions.

Yes, it all evolves within certain slightly flexible constraints from genetics.

Brains are living organs and age. They also require nutrition. These things effect how a brain functions, not experience. Experience changes what a brain functions with, not how it functions.

It is so much more complicated than that. Certain increases in neural activity actually affect how the new and old pathways for neural activity operate even after the increases in neural activity stops. Using antidepressants helps increase neurotransmissions where there are normally more. I was told that sometimes people can get off of antidepressants because the pathways actually became more "broken in". I am not actually totally sure about all of this, but I will ask my doctor next time or find a reference for you.

The way a brain functions is determined by genetics, not the external world.

No, the inputs are constantly changing the brain. You seem to be describing a hardwired machine like a calculator, but biological systems, especially the brain, are much more complicated than that. There are multiple variables and maybe even an infinite number of variables at any given moment.

Once you have something like a brain you have something new in the universe. Something that decides for itself how it will act.

Is this free will?

The brain does what it does according to genetic "programming". That is not behaving "freely".

Okay, but it seemed like you meant free will.

Brain + input = colour. The brain alone does not equal colour. I would probably have to see light at some point in my life to experience colour.

Not true at all. If we could excite the proper pathways in the optic nerve we could cause the brain to create color.

Sure, but that's still an input from the environment.

A person would not necessarily need to be born with eyes to experience color. As long as the proper nerves could be stimulated in the proper fashion. Or even if the proper parts of the brain were stimulated in the proper way.

Yes, but that was not my point. My point was that photons are necessary without other options.

And of course we can imagine color without any color stimulus. I can imagine a big red flaming sun with my eyes closed.

But are you experiencing it. That is what we were discussing.

Do you think that if someone forced your eyes open and showed you a red apple that you wouldn't experience red? Sorry, but we don't have that much control yet.

This is after billions of years of evolution.

But evolving organisms don't necessarily evolve eyes or the ability to create colors. Those things arise by chance, not because the world is forcing evolution in any particular direction.

I don't know how this helps your argument.

Random chance (mutation) starts it.

Oh god, you know what I meant. In a specific instance it causes it.

You're talking about a stimulus, not a cause. The cause is evolution and random mutation. This causes the stimulus to have an effect. The stimulus is not the ultimate cause of anything.

"Cause" is extremely vague. You cannot pin down how to use "cause". Everything is a cause. Just work with me a little. Don't take a specific meaning of something vague to help your argument; this wastes time.

I hope I read this wrong. The environment is a huge part of evolution because it causes many of the mutations by way of radiation.

Mutations occur randomly and for many reasons. Many are errors in replication. The vast majority are either harmful or have no effect.

But saying radiation can cause mutations is not saying radiation is guiding evolution in any way. Nothing is guiding evolution. Evolving life interacts with changing environments, but the environment is not guiding the process. It is just one factor determining which things that arise randomly survive.

You seem to be incapable of admitting mistakes; aren't you? This is not how to learn or is it a good habit to get into. And people will eventually just start ignoring you; nothing good comes from this.

The environment's equations are the original equations that we transcribed into symbols.

There are no equations beyond animals that invent them. Things are moving the way they move because of inherent properties, not equations.

We abstract these inherent properties into numbers and mathematical functions so we can make predictions.

Yes, I agree. They symbolize something out there. The symbol is not exactly what it symbolizes, but the connection that we make to what it symbolizes is a mechanical connection. The thing that it symbolizes is causally connected to the symbol. It is all a system, a process.

But there is a difference between our abstractions and the real thing.

I agree, and I always have.

They are not close to being the same thing. Equations are not behavior based on inherent properties. To think they are is to not understand either.

5+2 = 7 is an equation to you but not an equation to someone who uses different symbols for numbers. A mass of rocks on one side of a scale balancing out wood on the other side is how both languages get their equations, but they use different symbols.
 
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They are not close to being the same thing. Equations are not behavior based on inherent properties. To think they are is to not understand either.

5+2 = 7 is an equation to you but not an equation to someone who uses different symbols for numbers. A mass of rocks on one side of a scale balancing out wood on the other side is how both languages get their equations, but they use different symbols.

Once again, a mass of rocks falling down a cliff is not an equation.

An equation is symbols on paper.

The falling rocks have no connection to the equations.

Humans have mental connections to the equations and can use them to predict the behavior of some things, but rocks falling down a cliff is too complex. There are no equations that can predict what will happen and where the rocks will end up.
 
But that is not what you seem to want to say. You seem there to be some magic interconnectness of reality and our models.
There is one: evolution, but no other.

There are no colors out there, there are no numbers out there, there are no objects out there. There is no truth out there. They are all parts of our models.

Our models come because of what is out there. For you, a model in another person's head is a model that is out there. You have to accept this or else you are venturing into solipsism.
When you look at models of humans own models then you have "inside knowledge" so to speek, which you do not in the general case. So ignore that case until you understood the simpler case of models of truly external reality.

As an important side, what do you think is the absolute minimum required for the experience of green for the shortest amount of time possible? Let's say it is process A in space B. Is this process not just a lifeless process dependent on inputs and a supporting structure?
This question doesnt make sense. Why do you call a process "lifeless"? Life/death has nothing to do with this.
The minimum to experience green is a suffiiently advanced nervoussystem.
 
5+2 = 7 is an equation to you but not an equation to someone who uses different symbols for numbers. A mass of rocks on one side of a scale balancing out wood on the other side is how both languages get their equations, but they use different symbols.

Once again, a mass of rocks falling down a cliff is not an equation.

An equation is symbols on paper.

And ... the circle is complete.
 
Our models come because of what is out there. For you, a model in another person's head is a model that is out there. You have to accept this or else you are venturing into solipsism.
When you look at models of humans own models then you have "inside knowledge" so to speek, which you do not in the general case. So ignore that case until you understood the simpler case of models of truly external reality.

What if we built a machine that models parts of nature. Is the model of nature in the machine? Why or why not?

As an important side, what do you think is the absolute minimum required for the experience of green for the shortest amount of time possible? Let's say it is process A in space B. Is this process not just a lifeless process dependent on inputs and a supporting structure?
This question doesnt make sense. Why do you call a process "lifeless"? Life/death has nothing to do with this.

Because it is made out of the same stuff that everything else is made out of. There is nothing special about our models that can't exist out there.

The minimum to experience green is a suffiiently advanced nervoussystem.

I highly doubt this is known. Give references if it is. I don't even think it can be known.
 
Because it is made out of the same stuff that everything else is made out of. There is nothing special about our models that can't exist out there.
The models require the "platform" consisting of a nervoussystem. The nervoussystem is out there. The models, as the entire mind, are processes in the info-chemical system on that platform. Computer processes are also out there but they also need a platform to run on. So the "inside" is the interacrions of that software. The same is valid for our mind: the inside is the myriad of representations used. Those have no meaning outside the process.
 
Because it is made out of the same stuff that everything else is made out of. There is nothing special about our models that can't exist out there.
The models require the "platform" consisting of a nervoussystem. The nervoussystem is out there. The models, as the entire mind, are processes in the info-chemical system on that platform. Computer processes are also out there but they also need a platform to run on. So the "inside" is the interacrions of that software. The same is valid for our mind: the inside is the myriad of representations used. Those have no meaning outside the process.

So if I write an equation on a piece of paper, is the equation outside of my mind on paper, is it still in my mind or is it both?
 
The models require the "platform" consisting of a nervoussystem. The nervoussystem is out there. The models, as the entire mind, are processes in the info-chemical system on that platform. Computer processes are also out there but they also need a platform to run on. So the "inside" is the interacrions of that software. The same is valid for our mind: the inside is the myriad of representations used. Those have no meaning outside the process.

So if I write an equation on a piece of paper, is the equation outside of my mind on paper, is it still in my mind or is it both?

It is only in your mind. (And maybe in the mind of another person that can dechiffer the ink on the paper.)
 
So if I write an equation on a piece of paper, is the equation outside of my mind on paper, is it still in my mind or is it both?

It is only in your mind. (And maybe in the mind of another person that can dechiffer the ink on the paper.)

Then please define what an equation is then. Also define it physically.
 
It is only in your mind. (And maybe in the mind of another person that can dechiffer the ink on the paper.)

Then please define what an equation is then. Also define it physically.

An equation is a relation between a number of variables, constants and functions.

Physically it is interactions between neural processes.
 
Then please define what an equation is then. Also define it physically.

An equation is a relation between a number of variables, constants and functions.

Physically it is interactions between neural processes.

But you said that the equations are, "only in your mind", and before that you said that the "nervoussystem is out there". That would make the equations out there too.
 
Once again, a mass of rocks falling down a cliff is not an equation.

An equation is symbols on paper.

And ... the circle is complete.

You cut off the most important point.

We can take something simple like a rock rolling down a hill and there is no model that can predict it's behavior.

There is no model that will tell me exactly where the rock will end up, or how exactly it will get there.

Our models fall woefully short of predicting very simple real world events.

They are far from perfect and far from a description of reality.

They are a very partial description of reality and only able to make very simple predictions.

There is no rational way to confuse them with reality or think reality has anything to do with the endless equations that would be necessary to explain everything that is going on.
 
And ... the circle is complete.

You cut off the most important point.

We can take something simple like a rock rolling down a hill and there is no model that can predict it's behavior.

There is no model that will tell me exactly where the rock will end up, or how exactly it will get there.

I have explained many times; it's because of other factors. If there were no unknown forces on the rock including forces such as wind, friction and bugs, then the model would be perfect. The models are perfect when they only are meant for using certain variables that are known.

Our models fall woefully short of predicting very simple real world events.

They are far from perfect and far from a description of reality.

They are a very partial description of reality and only able to make very simple predictions.

There is no rational way to confuse them with reality or think reality has anything to do with the endless equations that would be necessary to explain everything that is going on.

Newton's first law, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion is a perfect example of a perfect model. The model is pure and true for the part of reality it describes. Even the idea of the model follows the model.

The conservation of energy is another one. The law itself works using the law it claims. The idea of the law is an example of the law working.
 
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