Split Is aphasia a cognitive disability?

[Metaphor]

STAFF NOTICE - This is a split of a split

Was the political discussions 2020 mid-terms, then Fetterman fit to work. This split is the clinical and philosophical discussion of the condition of aphasia

Very happy for Fetterman. Would have been too dispiriting if he lost over a disability irrelevant to the job. And really, fuck "Dr." Oz, what a dehumanizing, ugly campaign that fraud ran.

What?

Not being able to follow ordinary speech without seeing it written down is 'irrelevant' to the job of a politician?

Are you serious?

Yes, of course. Why would there be a problem with disabled people using accommodations???

Why did you ask a question that has no relationship to what I said?

Fetterman's disability is not irrelevant to the job. If it were irrelevant, he wouldn't need accommodations. Do you know what the business of a Senator includes? Part of it is real-time speech processing of speech other people make in the Senate.

 

[Metaphor]

Since Metaphor doesn't understand what an accommodation is for,

I know what it's for.

You don't understand why what you said was, plainly speaking, ludicrous. A cognitive deficit where you cannot process ordinary speech is plainly relevant to the job of a senator. Whether and how much it can be mitigated with accommodations is a separate question.

 

[ZiprHead]

Accommodations make it irrelevant. You may be aware that someone who is deaf can make a fine senator.

Fetterman's problem is not sensory, but cognitive.

His doctors said his cognition is fine.

Also, he is recovering and it will become less of a problem over time.

That may be, but to describe it as 'irrelevant' is false. It seems to me also speculation without evidence that it will become better over time.

His doctors also said he will get better over time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Accommodations make it irrelevant. You may be aware that someone who is deaf can make a fine senator.

Fetterman's problem is not sensory, but cognitive.

Same effect, though.

 

[Metaphor]

If being shit in a debate and stumbling over sentences actually disqualifies you in US politics Katie Porter would probably be the only one left in the House and Senate. My partner is an occupational therapist and my Dad had a stroke in 2011. I can find plenty of people who have had strokes who can tell you to go fuck yourself if you're going to peddle your ablest crap.

My own father had multiple strokes and died from one in 2013. I have seen exactly what strokes can do. He never told me to go "fuck myself" though.

It astonishes me - truly - that it is considered 'ableist' to say a cognitive deficit that negatively affects the ability to follow and process speech will negatively impact performance as a Senator.

You can't dismiss reality by labelling everything you don't like an '-ism'.

 

[Metaphor]

It isn't just televised debates, which are certainly high stress events for any participant (except perhaps seasoned politicians who have perfected their talking points).

When a bill is debated in the Senate, multiple speakers speak for it and against it. If you can't understand /process what is being said to you, that is a deficit in your ability to be a Senator.

Fetterman needed captioning when he had a one-on-one interview.

I started with one response - that it was ludicrous to say a demonstrated cognitive deficit had 'no impact' on his ability to be a Senator. I can't help but feel I am getting hyperpartisan pushback against what seems like an obvious statement.

If Fetterman can understand a statement if it's in a differant form, then it's not a cognitive issue, it's a communication issue.

Oy gevalt.

A reading disorder is a cognitive issue. Speech processing disorders are cognitive issues. Bruce Willis's aphasia is a cognitive issue. The issue is the brain, not the sensory organs feeding it.

It beggars belief the amount of defensiveness about calling Fetterman's clear cognitive issue an issue. It beggars belief that people think listening and understanding speech is completely optional as a Senator. It beggars belief that I would be called 'ableist' for pointing out the screamingly obvious.

Also, it is not clear to me at all that Fetterman understands the questions put to him, even when written. Listen to his response about his position on fracking. He either was taking the 'outright lying' response; or he didn't understand the question, or he did understand the question but thought his response answered it, or he believes he has always held the same stance.

But this isn't even about Fetterman. I wanted to address the absolutely ludicrous delusion that difficulties processing speech was somehow 'irrelevant' to the job of being a Senator.

 

[ZiprHead]

It isn't just televised debates, which are certainly high stress events for any participant (except perhaps seasoned politicians who have perfected their talking points).

When a bill is debated in the Senate, multiple speakers speak for it and against it. If you can't understand /process what is being said to you, that is a deficit in your ability to be a Senator.

Fetterman needed captioning when he had a one-on-one interview.

I started with one response - that it was ludicrous to say a demonstrated cognitive deficit had 'no impact' on his ability to be a Senator. I can't help but feel I am getting hyperpartisan pushback against what seems like an obvious statement.

If Fetterman can understand a statement if it's in a differant form, then it's not a cognitive issue, it's a communication issue.

Oy gevalt.

A reading disorder is a cognitive issue. Speech processing disorders are cognitive issues. Bruce Willis's aphasia is a cognitive issue. The issue is the brain, not the sensory organs feeding it.

It beggars belief the amount of defensiveness about calling Fetterman's clear cognitive issue an issue. It beggars belief that people think listening and understanding speech is completely optional as a Senator. It beggars belief that I would be called 'ableist' for pointing out the screamingly obvious.

Also, it is not clear to me at all that Fetterman understands the questions put to him, even when written. Listen to his response about his position on fracking. He either was taking the 'outright lying' response; or he didn't understand the question, or he did understand the question but thought his response answered it, or he believes he has always held the same stance.

But this isn't even about Fetterman. I wanted to address the absolutely ludicrous delusion that difficulties processing speech was somehow 'irrelevant' to the job of being a Senator.

Oy gevalt.

Where did you get your medical degree and when did you examine Fetterman?

A stroke can have physical, mental and emotional effects. Here are common physical conditions that occur after a stroke:

• Weakness or paralysis: Weakness or paralysis occurs in 80% of stroke victims. One whole side of the body may be affected, or movement in just a leg or arm could be impaired. Depending on which side of the brain experienced the stroke, the opposite side of the body will see the effects.
• Balance or coordination complications: A stroke survivor may struggle to sit, stand or walk despite adequate muscle strength.
• Sensations of pain or numbness: Abnormal sensations may make a stroke survivor unable to get comfortable or relax at times.
• Trouble swallowing: Difficulties swallowing may make eating more frustrating after a stroke.
• Bowel or urinary control problems: Bowel or urinary incontinence can be common in stroke survivors.
• Fatigue: Stroke patients may get tired quickly, which can make fully participating in a stroke rehabilitation program challenging.

Stroke survivors may also endure these mental health symptoms:
(This is the important part, Metaphor)

• Aphasia: Aphasia is a language disorder that causes communication issues by affecting the patient's ability to both understand and express spoken and written language. Typically, speech therapy is the main treatment for aphasia. Although it may sound overwhelming, knowing what aphasia is and how to address it is a big step toward recovery.
• Cognitive complications: A stroke survivor may face a range of cognitive challenges such as memory problems, a shortened attention span, trouble learning or difficulty thinking clearly.
• Bodily inattention: It is not uncommon for a stroke patient to not look toward their weaker side or even eat food from the half of the plate according to their weaker side.
• Unawareness of symptoms: Stroke survivors may not fully grasp the extent of their symptoms and misjudge their ability to complete tasks like they used to.

What to Expect After a Stroke: 6 Tips for the Stroke Caregiver | PAM

If you have recently become a stroke caregiver, you will find some helpful information about the stroke recovery process and your new responsibility.

pamhealth.com

Stay in your lane, Metaphor.

 

[Copernicus]

How a person responds while under pressure in a debate and how that person decides to cast a vote on a bill are two different things.

It isn't just televised debates, which are certainly high stress events for any participant (except perhaps seasoned politicians who have perfected their talking points).

When a bill is debated in the Senate, multiple speakers speak for it and against it. If you can't understand /process what is being said to you, that is a deficit in your ability to be a Senator.

You have a seriously outmoded idea of how business is conducted in the US Congress, where most seats often sit empty while speeches are given. Back in the 18th century, that idea made much more sense. Nowadays, most business is conducted independently of public debates on the floor, which those in office use primarily for public posturing. Fetterman can give such speeches, and he can read the ones that his colleagues give and have published in the public record.

Understanding debate on the Senate floor was an example. Really, processing speech is a fundamental aspect of almost any job.

You are trying to convince a linguist of this? I think that I understand a little more about linguistic aphasia and how it works than you do. The kinds of errors that Fetterman makes are entirely consistent with aphasia, which tends to become worse in stressful situations. (Even Nixon showed mild signs of motor aphasia during his resignation speech.) There is a big difference between the ability to think clearly and the ability to process language during production and perception. From what I could tell, Feterman's difficulties were quite mild and consistent with someone who is recovering from a stroke, but I am not a clinical diagnostician. I have studied the affliction because of its relevance to linguistic theories.

Fetterman needed captioning when he had a one-on-one interview.

I started with one response - that it was ludicrous to say a demonstrated cognitive deficit had 'no impact' on his ability to be a Senator. I can't help but feel I am getting hyperpartisan pushback against what seems like an obvious statement.

Fetterman will continue to recover and improve, and he will likely make an effective senator for the state of Pennsylvania, which he knows very well. Oz would just have been another vote for MAGA obstructionism and collecting money from rich Republican donors rather than TV audiences.

I said nothing about Oz.

I know that you said nothing about Oz, but he was the only practical alternative choice to Fetterman. As for his so-called "cognitive deficit", all we know is that he suffered brain damage from the stroke.

Calling it 'so-called' and putting it in inverted commas doesn't change the reality.

I used scare quotes, because that expression could mean so many different things. It really doesn't mean very much in the context of this discussion.

 

[Metaphor]

Fetterman’s own doctor said he has no cognitive deficit and no deficit in his ability to think and reason.

I did not say Fetterman had a deficit in his ability to think and reason.

So unless you are a doctor and know something his own doctor doesn’t, I suggest you stow your BS.

I am not a physician and never claimed to be. However, I reject your attempt to shut down conversation via claims of epistemological privilege.

 

[pood]

I’m trying to work this out. Is “epistemological privilege“ intended as a pejorative characterization of the idea that a doctor can know more about the health of his patient than some rando on the internet? Or what?

 

[Metaphor]

Another example of epistemological privilege: "Are you a doctor"?, which is a reverse appeal to authority, as if only medical doctors can understand anything medical or medical-adjacent.

Oh, come off of it. You claimed, contra your recent disclaimers, that Fetterman has cognitive deficits related to his stroke.

I said he had a speech processing deficit as a result of his stroke, which is a cognitive deficit rather than a sensory deficit.

HIs doctor says he does not.

I did not say Fetterman had cognitive deficits in addition to his speech processing deficit. I speculated that he may. Strokes cause damage to the brain. Nor did I say, as has been falsely claimed, that Fetterman was 'incapable' of being a Senator due to the deficits.

Why the hell should anyone “epistemologically privilege” your claim over that of his own dcotor? Reverse appeal to authority, indeed!

My claim that processing speech is an important part of being a Senator? It does not seem to me that a medical degree offers any special knowledge to this claim. In fact, there are people--organisational psychologists--whose entire job it is to quantify the importance of various skills and abilities for certain job roles.

 

[ZiprHead]

I said he had a speech processing deficit as a result of his stroke, which is a cognitive deficit rather than a sensory deficit.

No, it's not.

Aphasia Is a Language Disorder, Not a Cognitive Disorder

Aphasia does not affect someone's intelligence.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Metaphor]

Please note that the word “cognition” MEANS “thinking and reasoning.”

cog·ni·tion
[kɒɡˈnɪʃ(ə)n]


NOUN

1. the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses.

It has a much wider meaning than you claim.

However, it's all irrelevant. I said understanding and processing speech is an important part of a Senator's job.

Apparently I might be wrong about that, according to laughing dog, from which I gather Americans have no standards from what they expect in a Senator.

 

[ZiprHead]

I notice Metaphor didn't respond to post #232 that contained a link that directly says aphasia is not a cognitive issue but a one of language. He had to have seen it since he's responded to posts made after it. That's now two authoritative links I've provided that say aphasia is not a cognitive condition yet he continues to make his argument.

[removed]

 

[Metaphor]

If that is true, then there is no real issue. If that is untrue, it is easily dealt with if Mr. Fetterman has an aide with him to help him understand what is said in conversations.

An aide can't provide real-time subtitles for him. But even if she could, she'd be providing them because Fetterman has a cognitive deficit in processing speech.

Nevertheless, the idea that processing speech is not important for a Senator is still a ludicrous idea.

Only to the epistemologicallly impaired. BTW, there is no evidence Mr. Fetterman has a cognitive deficit in processing speech but auditory speech issues.

The problem is in his brain.

Unless you are somehow implying this affects his ability to reason and think, what is your point?

I've already answered this. I was making a point that being unable to process speech is different from a sensory deficit like being hard of hearing, and accommodations for it have to be different and may not be all practical, and the effects may not be able to be mitigated even with accommodations.

Well, since we have evidence the effects are mitigated with accommodation, it seems that once again, you have no relevant point.

We have no such evidence.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't think that Metaphor really understands the language issues that Fetterman has, but other stroke victims do:

After Fetterman debate, stroke survivors speak about their own struggles​

It is true that Fetterman needs to be able to understand language in order to function properly, but it is also true that he does understand language and function properly now. His impairments don't prevent that, but they do make it more difficult for him to communicate now. The likelihood of a strong recovery from an ischemic stroke of the sort he had is really very good.

For a more in-depth look at exactly what kind of stroke and brain damage Fetterman suffered and the prognosis for full recovery, see the following:

Fetterman’s struggles with language highlight the challenges after a stroke – a vascular neurologist explains aphasia and the path to recovery

 

[Swammerdami]

There are several posts from another thread I want to move here.

But the Moderator interface is acting up.

Please do not post in this thread until that problem is cleared up.

 

[Swammerdami]

OK. The relevant posts have been Moved.

Feel free to continue discussion of whether aphasia is a cognitive disability.

 

[steve_bank]

Don't know what this is doing in philosophy. It is a physical medical condition,

I hit my head when I was rehabbing in a nursing home. I ended up with subdural hemotoma. Fluids accumulated between skull and brain.

I had speech aphasia. My thinking was fine but when I tried to speak nothing came out. I cold hear and understand perfectly The fluids that acclimated compressed the speech center.

I ended up having a hole drilled in my skull to drain fluids and I quickly recovered.

In he nursing home and assisted living I saw and knew stroke victims. Somebody I took meals with was a stroke victim. Mentally he was all there but he had shakes sometimes and diminished use of one arm. Sometimes I cut his food for him.

It is a disability, with varying degrees of incapacity.

It will make his job difficult with communications, but sholud not disqualify hum outright.

 

[annewimsey]

STAFF NOTICE - This is a split of a split

Was the political discussions 2020 mid-terms, then Fetterman fit to work. This split is the clinical and philosophical discussion of the condition of aphasia

Very happy for Fetterman. Would have been too dispiriting if he lost over a disability irrelevant to the job. And really, fuck "Dr." Oz, what a dehumanizing, ugly campaign that fraud ran.

What?

Not being able to follow ordinary speech without seeing it written down is 'irrelevant' to the job of a politician?

Are you serious?

Yes, of course. Why would there be a problem with disabled people using accommodations???

Why did you ask a question that has no relationship to what I said?

Fetterman's disability is not irrelevant to the job. If it were irrelevant, he wouldn't need accommodations. Do you know what the business of a Senator includes? Part of it is real-time speech processing of speech other people make in the Senate.

OK. The relevant posts have been Moved.

Feel free to continue discussion of whether aphasia is a cognitive disability.

I developed aphasia after a chiropractor, while 'adjusting' my neck, caused damage to my left vertebral artery, which collaped & is now nonexistent.
This was in 1989, i had my 39th birthday iduring the 3-week hospital stay. I had a myriad of problems, including aphasia, ataxia (balance/walking) lost 30 IQ points (luckily it was 143 to start with, but wow is there a difference!!!!), loss of sensation on my entire left side, etc etc etc etc. I have, in the 35+ years since, regained abilities or learned to cope well the remainders.
The aphasia was initially severe, now it only crops up now & then if i am very tired or ill. (i Knew i was getting better when i finally told everybody to stop correcting me, get things from the Context, it only increased the aphasia because i got self-conscious!)
Also i should mention the IQ is mostly back....
I believe Fetterman will follow a similar trajectory...they gave me NO support after discharge, BTW, because it was assumed i would deteriorate and end up in a home, or dead.
He will get a ton of support i am sure.
The entire time the apshasia was rampant, i always KNEW exactly what i wanted to say, but somehow the wrong word would pop out, a surprise to me and all around me........
The hardest of all to deal with, after serious damage, especially to the brain, is the incredible pressure to Be The Same, nobody can help it (even oneself!) and the aphasia triggers fears, big-time. Those of you who see he is actually "still in there" but are so uneasy may be falling into this trap.