Is identity politics taking the wind out of the sails for class politics?

[repoman]

I think that it is at least partially. But the reasons for it confuse me.

Is it that intersectionality as practiced does very much take class into account but is being misrepresented by rightwing assholes to keep the wealth stratification safe?

Is "diversity washing" happening where a company hires many minorities, women, LGBT people but still may greatly add to wealth and power inequality on the whole? Sort of like greenwashing token projects for a environmentally destructive company.

 

[LordKiran]

Yes.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFygblM-4Uk[/youtube]

This is what identity politics leads us to.

 

[Mumbles]

My basic view remains unchanged: "Identity Politics" is generally code for "health, legal, and economic concerns of people who are not straight white men". Examples include, but are not limited to, wage discrimination, anti-police violence movements, Trans people who want to use bathrooms, or the Atlantic Pipeline protests. And compare them to people worried about "white genocide" - ie. people who insist that there's a Jewish conspiracy for white women and non-white men to have children.

Or for that matter, compare the wildly violent reaction to Ferguson mourners to the mostly fond embrace of the Parkland shooting survivors. Even the Parkland kids have strenuously objected to this one.

In other words, what people commonly call "identity politics" *are* class politics, with the exception of neo-nazism, which is simply genocidal anger. Or at least, this is true of the US - I can't speak to other countries.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My basic view remains unchanged: "Identity Politics" is generally code for "health, legal, and economic concerns of people who are not straight white men". Examples include, but are not limited to, wage discrimination, anti-police violence movements, Trans people who want to use bathrooms, or the Atlantic Pipeline protests.

None of that has to be handled with identity politics. And when we do push identity politics as the main thrust of such efforts it will indeed encourage white identity politics.

In other words, what people commonly call "identity politics" *are* class politics

Only if you equate black to poor, female to financial oppression, etc. Actually if you actually equate race or gender identity politics as class politics... that's a deeper hole than I thought we were in. Wealth levels can change within individuals, and we on the left are supporting efforts to erode and destroy class as a concept with better social programs and less extreme spreads in wealth (we are the 99% etc). The equivalent would be ending the importance put on race and gender and combating racism and sexist regardless of who it is done by or targeted at and pushing for gender and race blind society, and not pushing the importance of such differences with identity politics.

 

[repoman]

Maybe this is why issues and organizations that are not very related to identity politics like climate change (350.org), animal rights (Greenpeace, WWF) are getting oxygen sucked out. They are not directly hooked into the intersectional matrix of oppression. The direct spokesmen for these causes would be plants, animals and future generations that can't talk.

Intersectionalism is fairly important and could be used to further more class equality, but now it is way overplayed both by its supporters and (sneaky right wing Ayn Rand loving) detractors to the detriment of other causes.

As far as the pipeline protest is concerned, if this happened 30-40 years ago would it have been more focused on just the pipeline and not all these other social issues and would that have been more effective?

As far as environmental stuff goes I am probably the most insanely left wing person here. But as far as people go, fuck off stop complaining and deal with society as it is. We have agency and can make choices - the environment and future generations do not. We should all be dumped off 500 years in the future to deal with the mess we are making.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Maybe this is why issues and organizations that are not very related to identity politics like climate change (350.org), animal rights (Greenpeace, WWF) are getting oxygen sucked out. They are not directly hooked into the intersectional matrix of oppression. The direct spokesmen for these causes would be plants, animals and future generations that can't talk.

That's an interesting point.

 

[Mumbles]

Maybe this is why issues and organizations that are not very related to identity politics like climate change (350.org), animal rights (Greenpeace, WWF) are getting oxygen sucked out. They are not directly hooked into the intersectional matrix of oppression. The direct spokesmen for these causes would be plants, animals and future generations that can't talk.

That's an interesting point.

It's really not - groups like BLM and DAPL, and people like Van Jones, have been discussing this for decades, forming alliances with what used to by simple NIMBY groups that were horrified to discover that the dirty toxins that they shoved out of their own areas, were simply built in the local non-white community instead. I recall these discussions going on in areas like Boston in the 1980s. And it helps that the US president that's been the most hostile to the environment in decades is the same one who has been most openly and plainly bigoted.

 

[RavenSky]

Maybe this is why issues and organizations that are not very related to identity politics like climate change (350.org), animal rights (Greenpeace, WWF) are getting oxygen sucked out. They are not directly hooked into the intersectional matrix of oppression. The direct spokesmen for these causes would be plants, animals and future generations that can't talk.

That's an interesting point.

It's really not - groups like BLM and DAPL, and people like Van Jones, have been discussing this for decades, forming alliances with what used to by simple NIMBY groups that were horrified to discover that the dirty toxins that they shoved out of their own areas, were simply built in the local non-white community instead. I recall these discussions going on in areas like Boston in the 1980s. And it helps that the US president that's been the most hostile to the environment in decades is the same one who has been most openly and plainly bigoted.

Exactly.

I'm not seeing any "oxygen sucked out" environmental movements, for instance. Quite the opposite. And that is perhaps thanks to so-called "identity politics" - the more people that can identify with an issue, the more likely they will become involved.

 

[untermensche]

"Identity Politics" is just the latest right wing ignorance.

For them all it takes is a magic phrase and the concerns of other humans by a miracle disappear.

 

[LordKiran]

My basic view remains unchanged: "Identity Politics" is generally code for "health, legal, and economic concerns of people who are not straight white men". Examples include, but are not limited to, wage discrimination, anti-police violence movements, Trans people who want to use bathrooms, or the Atlantic Pipeline protests. And compare them to people worried about "white genocide" - ie. people who insist that there's a Jewish conspiracy for white women and non-white men to have children.

Or for that matter, compare the wildly violent reaction to Ferguson mourners to the mostly fond embrace of the Parkland shooting survivors. Even the Parkland kids have strenuously objected to this one.

In other words, what people commonly call "identity politics" *are* class politics, with the exception of neo-nazism, which is simply genocidal anger. Or at least, this is true of the US - I can't speak to other countries.

You know I initially said yes, but that's not really the case since all politics involve people's concept of identity. I was going to say that it's true to the extend that "The basic rights and human dignities of the American people are being encroached upon such that civil servants can now get away with murder." would have sold better to the public than "Black lives matter" but when I think of it even that is a statement of identity, it relies on identity to have any impact on the listener.

So I guess "Identity politics" really is just yet another variant of "Redistribution of wealth" a bunch of scary sounding nothing-words.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

the more people that can identify with an issue, the more likely they will become involved.

The more inclusive you are in your "identity" on identity politics the less it is what I call identity politics. Perhaps we need to clarify our definitions?

The problems with identity politics is that it divides people into groups based on traits, creating tribalism and ignores individuals. If you include everyone into the group you have eliminated one of the problems.

 

[SimpleDon]

I think that it is at least partially. But the reasons for it confuse me.

Is it that intersectionality as practiced does very much take class into account but is being misrepresented by rightwing assholes to keep the wealth stratification safe?

Is "diversity washing" happening where a company hires many minorities, women, LGBT people but still may greatly add to wealth and power inequality on the whole? Sort of like greenwashing token projects for a environmentally destructive company.

Yes, the whole purpose of identity politics, of which racism is the most virulent form, is to divert attention away from the class war. It has always been this way. To make people worry so much about the "others" below in the social order overtaking them so that they don't notice that it is the upper class that is royally screwing them.

 

[Mumbles]

My basic view remains unchanged: "Identity Politics" is generally code for "health, legal, and economic concerns of people who are not straight white men". Examples include, but are not limited to, wage discrimination, anti-police violence movements, Trans people who want to use bathrooms, or the Atlantic Pipeline protests. And compare them to people worried about "white genocide" - ie. people who insist that there's a Jewish conspiracy for white women and non-white men to have children.

Or for that matter, compare the wildly violent reaction to Ferguson mourners to the mostly fond embrace of the Parkland shooting survivors. Even the Parkland kids have strenuously objected to this one.

In other words, what people commonly call "identity politics" *are* class politics, with the exception of neo-nazism, which is simply genocidal anger. Or at least, this is true of the US - I can't speak to other countries.

You know I initially said yes, but that's not really the case since all politics involve people's concept of identity. I was going to say that it's true to the extend that "The basic rights and human dignities of the American people are being encroached upon such that civil servants can now get away with murder." would have sold better to the public than "Black lives matter" but when I think of it even that is a statement of identity, it relies on identity to have any impact on the listener.

So I guess "Identity politics" really is just yet another variant of "Redistribution of wealth" a bunch of scary sounding nothing-words.

Also, #ThebasicrightsandhumandignitiesoftheAmericanpeoplearebeingencroacheduponsuchthatcivilservantscannowgetawaywithmurder is a horrible hashtag. It's also a horrible name for pretty much any organization or movement.

I'd agree, though, that white supremacism, as practiced in the US, is in part a way to distract from class issues. The problem is that the people who practice "Identity politics" (eg. rights for racial and ethnic minorities - often decried by people who wish to push equal rights for religious minorities, particularly atheism!) are usually quite open to alliances - BLM, as noted in the OP's video, rallied alongside FightFor15. They've also organized charity drives for disaster regions, while white supremacists were arming themselves and raving about "black and brown looters" that never actually emerged.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

BLM, as noted in the OP's video, rallied alongside FightFor15. They've also organized charity drives for disaster regions, while white supremacists were arming themselves and raving about "black and brown looters" that never actually emerged.

They also held up the pride parade in Toronto, interrupted a public apology by the Toronto Police about deplorable behavior raiding gay bathhouses, and they so stormed Bernie Sanders at one of his rallies.

 

[Trausti]

BLM, as noted in the OP's video, rallied alongside FightFor15. They've also organized charity drives for disaster regions, while white supremacists were arming themselves and raving about "black and brown looters" that never actually emerged.

They also held up the pride parade in Toronto, interrupted a public apology by the Toronto Police about deplorable behavior raiding gay bathhouses, and they so stormed Bernie Sanders at one of his rallies.

Black is above gay on the progressive stack. So this behavior is okay. Stay Woke my friend.

 

[repoman]

Let me take a lateral example of an assertion I have heard. That is if the US was still having the demographics it had in the 1960s (and the same slow immigration rate) that pressure for universal healthcare would be greater and pressure against lower. That is because the vast majority whites would not be thinking, fuck that I don't want to pay for these other peoples healthcare. Not that whites are inherently more selfish or racist than any other group, but that it is a source of splintering and divide and conquer that has been used well.

 

[Mumbles]

BLM, as noted in the OP's video, rallied alongside FightFor15. They've also organized charity drives for disaster regions, while white supremacists were arming themselves and raving about "black and brown looters" that never actually emerged.

They also held up the pride parade in Toronto, interrupted a public apology by the Toronto Police about deplorable behavior raiding gay bathhouses, and they so stormed Bernie Sanders at one of his rallies.

And this comes down to it's own discussion within the LGBT groups - namely that, as much as black LGBT folks have contributed, and as much as white LGBT folks love to throw MLK Jr's one quote around (sound familiar yet?), the greater LGBT groups tend to outright ignore nonwhite LGBT people.

White LGBT groups "We're friendly with police, they should march with us! They keep us safe!"
Black LGBT folks: "What's this 'we' mess you're saying?"

...and so LGBT groups that march alongside police, and entirely ignore the loudly expressed concerns of black LGBT groups and people, end up getting protested.

And yes, Sanders, like Clinton, had his own problems concerning black people - no matter how much Killer Mike disagreed. Once he faced a few protests, he *began* addressing those concerns. Mission accomplished.

(Not to mention the fact that even Sanders' own minority outreach team has stated outright that he did little to no actual outreach...)

 

[dismal]

People here don't seem to have noticed that the Democrats are the party of the rich now. Good luck fighting the class war from southern Connecticut and the SF Bay Area.

Good luck with having Standord and Brown students shrieking at people about "privilege".

 

[untermensche]

People here don't seem to have noticed that the Democrats are the party of the rich now.

I heard Ralph Nader say that in the 1990's.

But Trump is so distasteful, so off his rocker and dangerous, he makes the Democrats look very very good.