steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
You just made my day. I give you credit for being honest without equivocation. Refreshing.
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Is Religious Faith just another Religious Myth
- Thread starter T.G.G. Moogly
- Start date
You just made my day. I give you credit for being honest without equivocation. Refreshing.
Learner
Veteran Member
Yes it can't be both. It's unique in regards to donkeys.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
First, I prefer to call the story 'Balaam's Ass' -- largely because I can read the line "The ass saw the angel of the Lord' and picture, say, Franklin Graham or Mike Pence. Let's make it Pence. Also, this ass didn't just talk, it apparently recognized celestial beings which Balaam didn't see without help. So the ass was up on basic theology and perhaps even eschatology. When it did talk, after Balaam fulfilled folklore requirements by beating it THREE times, it revealed a sense of moral absolutes. I contend it had a soul. I contend that if it repented of its sins of asshood, that it ascended to heaven at death. Be of good cheer, believers. If this ass could be saved, then why not you. Just believe whatever this -- uh, donkey-like creature believed, and you, too...
This message to be concluded next Sunday. We will now sing Hymn 217.
This message to be concluded next Sunday. We will now sing Hymn 217.
James Brown
Veteran Member
I really can't follow you. You said we should not be surprised about stories of talking animals because some animals mimic human speech.
Did Balaam's ass speak like a human? Or did it merely mimic human speech like a parrot?
Learner
Veteran Member
It spoke like a human ...with a little Divine Intervention, henceforth, unique to that particular donkey.
skepticalbip
Contributor
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Since god was speaking through the ass, I have to believe that the ass sounded like George Burns.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
So why doesn't Trump?
DBT
Contributor
Trump probably believes himself to be God.
James Brown
Veteran Member
So then it should be a surprise that this animal talked, unlike what you said in post #295.
steve_bnk asked if we should take all the bible very literally, talking animals and all. You counter-argued that talking animals "shouldn't be a surprise", given that some animals can mimic human speech. When I asked you about Balaam's Ass, you then claim that it's an exception, brought on by Divine Intervention. In other words, a non sequitur.
"Hey, my dog spoke to me and said I should take out a second mortgage and buy lottery tickets."
"That's crazy. Dogs can't talk."
"Hey! Parrots can sound like they're talking sometimes."
"Is your dog a parrot?"
"No, but my dog was given the power of human speech by the Divine Supreme Being whom we must all worship."
"So then, A) it's still a crazy idea, and B) bringing up parrots doesn't help your case, does it?"
Magic, I’m gonna go with magic for this one. And no one was surprised.
So I went to re-read this Balaam story (it’s been many decades) and I’m, like, “oh this is so typical of these stories. The god says ‘do a thing,’ so the beleiver does the thing and the god gets pissed. Who writes this trash?”
WTF?
Plot hole! Back to editing!
But it doesn’t stop there...
WTF? Is Balaam to go nor not? He was following God’s orders from line 20, but then god sends a goon to kill him for it, and decides to let the donkey get beaten 3 times before opening its mouth (Donkey sez, thanksomuchforthat) But in the end, “oh, nevermind, I meant for you to do what god actually told you to do yesterday?”
WTAF?
But it doesn’t stop there...
Well actually, yah, he changed his mind twice just yesterday, promised he’d give me words then said he’d kill me before having them.
How did this get out of editing?
That one is just ghoulish and SO not a “God of Love” kinda vibe.
WTF?
Plot hole! Back to editing!
But it doesn’t stop there...
WTF? Is Balaam to go nor not? He was following God’s orders from line 20, but then god sends a goon to kill him for it, and decides to let the donkey get beaten 3 times before opening its mouth (Donkey sez, thanksomuchforthat) But in the end, “oh, nevermind, I meant for you to do what god actually told you to do yesterday?”
WTAF?
But it doesn’t stop there...
Well actually, yah, he changed his mind twice just yesterday, promised he’d give me words then said he’d kill me before having them.
How did this get out of editing?
That one is just ghoulish and SO not a “God of Love” kinda vibe.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Somewhere in the OT (I'm too lazy to look up the citation -- it's Sunday mornin') -- God orders a census to be taken of Israel, but when they do the census, it's said to be on Satan's orders, and God kills mega-heaps of people for it. This and the contradictory messages to Balaam sound like a problem drinker who behaves erratically, gets violent, and later either doesn't remember any of it or blames everyone else for being assholes. No wonder the second half of the OT is full of musings of what Israel did wrong and how to get Skydad to be nice again.
Yeah, all that really does add up to “just a myth”.
All the ‘sacrifices of bulls and rams’ all the “I will go over there and talk to god,” All the “before god bothered to open Balaam’s eyes, he let him beat the donkey 3 times and click his heels together and bade the ass to speak, which didn’t surprise Balaam, like, at all.”
Yeah, just “go ahead and tie the girl to the rock for the snake-haired monster’s pet’s dinner; gods like that stuff! I would!”
All the ‘sacrifices of bulls and rams’ all the “I will go over there and talk to god,” All the “before god bothered to open Balaam’s eyes, he let him beat the donkey 3 times and click his heels together and bade the ass to speak, which didn’t surprise Balaam, like, at all.”
Yeah, just “go ahead and tie the girl to the rock for the snake-haired monster’s pet’s dinner; gods like that stuff! I would!”
James Brown
Veteran Member
Oh my yes, that story is bizarre.
"go do what you were already doing before I threatened to stop you from doing. Utterly and truly bizarre."
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
So what is a more rational person to make of the observation that millions of folk read these stories and attempt to find some hidden truth and life-changing revelation? Maybe they're doing nothing more than pondering the question "What happens when the immovable object meets the irresistible force? How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? What is the meaning of life?
Thinking there is something sacred and revealing by reading these stories is like looking at entrails to know the future. The stories should be recognized as dopey little anecdotes, entertaining and easily dismissed. But if I have an overarching belief that the story is some kind of code, I'll obsess over it's meaning.
Learner
Veteran Member
Comforting and supporting each other looks like a good thing. I like it. 
(a bit busy, I won't post in haste)
(a bit busy, I won't post in haste)
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Comforting and supporting each other looks like a good thing. I like it.
(a bit busy, I won't post in haste)
Do you need a god for that?
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
The story is the god.Comforting and supporting each other looks like a good thing. I like it.
(a bit busy, I won't post in haste)
Do you need a god for that?
Atheos
Veteran Member
II Samuel 24 is the passage to which you refer.
It starts off with God being pissed off at Israel. So since two wrongs make a right Yahweh orders David to take a census.
Joab knows that's against the rules and protests. But David's the king so off they go, numbering the people. Takes 'em 9 months and 20 days. They come up with 1.3 meeeeelion sword-drawing men. Makes David cry because now he knows he's done wrong by doing what Yahweh told him to do. God's just sitting up there with his brows furrowed saying, "Sike!!!"
So Yahweh gives David a Chinese menu. Choose one from Column A. And Column B... well fuggetaboutit. Ain't no column B. Pick your poison.
Column A
- Seven years of famine with a side of disease and starvation
- Three months of you running from your enemies as they poke your ass with spears
- Three days of my meanest angel whipping asses and leaving a big old pile of smoldering butts behind
Well, David's more of a "let's get this over with" kind of guy, and maybe even thinking he'd rather have other folks get their asses whipped than have to deal with the consequences of his choices on a personal level. "I'll take option three."
So for the next three days Yahweh sends his mob enforcer out on a rampage. Dude was pretty handy with the smite button. 70,000 dead men later he's standing just outside Araunah's crib ready to start working Jerusalem over and Yahweh decides it's time to halt things. Or did David decide enough people had died? I don't know, it gets really dumb here (up to now it was really smart). David uses his own money (because he's a "take the consequences myself" kind of guy) and buys some oxen and a threshing floor from Araunah so he can kill some animals to make nice with Yahweh. After all, 50 shekels of silver is a lot bigger sacrifice on his part being King of Israel and all than 70,000 folks who only had to lose their lives because of this.
But everything was just fine in the end. Yahweh just loooooooooves the smell of burning bovine flesh. And spilled blood. Gots to have that spilled blood.
It amazes me that I used to just buy this stuff and blame myself for thinking it was absurd and barbaric. The mental/emotional reaction is very similar to that mechanism that causes abused spouses to blame themselves - it's a warped sense of reality and what's decent.