Is the war on drugs really a war against poor people?

[barbos]

You know I was not including smoking and drinking into all of this.
I was talking about heavy stuff. As for the smoking, I hate it, and if I am ever a boss I will ban smoking.

Take away the problems caused by illegality, and the legal stuff is just as 'heavy' as the illegal.

If you doubt that alcohol is 'heavy stuff', check out what happens to long term severe alcoholics.

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason for why some drugs are legal and others are not. Certainly their potential for harm is not it; nor their degree of addictiveness.

I would not object banning alcohol or tobacco. I just don't think it's practical.
Most people can drink a little without any effect on their health. I doubt you can say the same about most of the illegal drugs. Most of them are much more addictive than alcohol.
In any case, I don't like drunk people and I don't think I would like people on meth being as common as drunks.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hence why all the cigarette smokers and people who drink every evening are unemployed.

You know I was not including smoking and drinking into all of this.
I was talking about heavy stuff. As for the smoking, I hate it, and if I am ever a boss I will ban smoking.

There are plenty of nonaddictive drugs that also are illegal. Stuff like ecstasy, LSD, Shrooms are illegal. Amphatemine in it´s regular form is also nonaddictive. While highly addictive drugs, like benzodiazepines, are readily available by any doctor. The relation between a drugs illegality and it´s addictive potential is weak. It seems rather connected to the "fun factor". The more fun a drug is the more we view it suspiciously.

MDMA is a good example. Ecstasy/MDMA even has an inbuilt chemical protection against addiction. It just isn´t fun taking MDMA regularly. You need to take at least a months break between usages to get the full affect. As well as it being non-toxic. Compared to most other drugs (including alcohol) MDMA is almost completely harmless. It can be argued that MDMA also has therapeutic usages, for example in couples counselling. I personally find it very hard to justify MDMA being illegal at all.

 

[Togo]

We've had a couple of people taking MDMA in nightclubs and then dying of dehydration. Whether you want to blame that on your methyldioxymethamphetamine, or on nightclub prices for drinks, is another matter.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Take away the problems caused by illegality, and the legal stuff is just as 'heavy' as the illegal.

If you doubt that alcohol is 'heavy stuff', check out what happens to long term severe alcoholics.

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason for why some drugs are legal and others are not. Certainly their potential for harm is not it; nor their degree of addictiveness.

I would not object banning alcohol or tobacco. I just don't think it's practical.
Most people can drink a little without any effect on their health. I doubt you can say the same about most of the illegal drugs. Most of them are much more addictive than alcohol.
In any case, I don't like drunk people and I don't think I would like people on meth being as common as drunks.

Here´s a list of various drugs relative dangerousness. It was compiled by the UK´s drug advisor David Nutt. It´s based on science and real research. Nutt was fired for publishing this list. As it didn´t confirm the British governments strict war-on-drugs policies.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/nov/02/david-nutt-dangerous-drug-list

A friend of mine recently got convicted for drug charges. He was a heroin addict. But also a bodybuilder. He was massive. Good luck being a successful bodybuilder if you drink alcohol. Even relatively small amounts of alcohol fucks you up pretty bad. It messes with all manner of hormone levels making it hard to build muscle. Heroin is fine for a bodybuilder.

The physical damage heroin addicts doesn´t come from the drug. It comes from the lifestyle. A heroin addict with easy access to free heroin and clean needles, can live a pretty normal life. What fucks it up for heroin addicts is the fact that it is illegal.

I´m not saying heroin is harmless. It´s an extremely dangerous drug. But criminalizing it doesn´t actually help anybody. Especially not the heroin addicts. This is the reason Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom just give heroin to heroin addicts for free. Instead of throwing them in jail. A heroin addict needs a well ordered life before he/she has any chance of successfully staying off the drug. That means they need to be giving the possibility to create a well ordered life for themselves before entering into rehab. That´s virtually impossible if we keep it criminalised. The criminalisation of heroin only acts to trap heroin addicts in their addiction.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We've had a couple of people taking MDMA in nightclubs and then dying of dehydration. Whether you want to blame that on your methyldioxymethamphetamine, or on nightclub prices for drinks, is another matter.

Still so extremely rare that it´s not even worth worrying about, even if you´re a most rabid pill popper. Not even 50 people have died from MDMA dehydration world wide all together. There are of course no reliable numbers on MDMA usage throughout the world. But we´ve all been to a nightclub. People are not discreet about it. It´s very common. Compare that to getting HIV from sex. There are 50 000 new HIV infections each year in USA. Or compare it to the dangers of just walking out in the street. People often worry about the wrong things in life. MDMA dehydration is one of them.

 

[barbos]

Doctors prescribe drugs for a reason. Healthy people are not supposed to take drugs. So leave doctors and their patients alone.

 

[barbos]

A heroin addict with easy access to free heroin and clean needles, can live a pretty normal life.

People can live pretty normal life without drugs too.

 

[Jarhyn]

Perhaps ADDICTS would get fired.

Of course, ADDICTS:

I mean, YOU could stop anytime.

An ADDICT is always someone else...

I do stop. I stopped drinking more than a beer in a sitting, I stopped smoking marijuana except in two very specific circumstances*, I smoke hookah maybe once every few months (such an addict!), and my MDMA usage is for anti-trauma therapy (and fun) once every 6 months or so. Psychedelics are almost entirely non-addictive, so I doubt my annual cactus expedition means I'm 'hooked'.

The one situation I'm going to continue using THC is following MDMA usage for its medical application of decreasing brain/core temp and forcing antioxidant release to prevent neurotoxic effects (in addition to vitamin C and E). Well, that and when I am hooking up with a friend of mine from DC. Though I'd argue that I'm more addicted to his cock than the THC, especially since I only get to see him one weekend a year.

Please do, though, tell me how using drugs for fun means I am an addict. I spend more money on fursuits and furry conventions, and more time at furry conventions during a year than I do enjoying drugs, and to be honest, I enjoy that a lot less than the MDMA.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of drugs, specifically meth:
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-woman-sentenced-deaths-her-6-newborns-151014384.html

 

[Juma]

Of course, ADDICTS:

I mean, YOU could stop anytime.

An ADDICT is always someone else...

I do stop. I stopped drinking more than a beer in a sitting, I stopped smoking marijuana except in two very specific circumstances*, I smoke hookah maybe once every few months (such an addict!), and my MDMA usage is for anti-trauma therapy (and fun) once every 6 months or so. Psychedelics are almost entirely non-addictive, so I doubt my annual cactus expedition means I'm 'hooked'.

The one situation I'm going to continue using THC is following MDMA usage for its medical application of decreasing brain/core temp and forcing antioxidant release to prevent neurotoxic effects (in addition to vitamin C and E). Well, that and when I am hooking up with a friend of mine from DC. Though I'd argue that I'm more addicted to his cock than the THC, especially since I only get to see him one weekend a year.

Please do, though, tell me how using drugs for fun means I am an addict. I spend more money on fursuits and furry conventions, and more time at furry conventions during a year than I do enjoying drugs, and to be honest, I enjoy that a lot less than the MDMA.

I hit a nerve...

 

[Jarhyn]

We've had a couple of people taking MDMA in nightclubs and then dying of dehydration. Whether you want to blame that on your methyldioxymethamphetamine, or on nightclub prices for drinks, is another matter.

Still so extremely rare that it´s not even worth worrying about, even if you´re a most rabid pill popper. Not even 50 people have died from MDMA dehydration world wide all together. There are of course no reliable numbers on MDMA usage throughout the world. But we´ve all been to a nightclub. People are not discreet about it. It´s very common. Compare that to getting HIV from sex. There are 50 000 new HIV infections each year in USA. Or compare it to the dangers of just walking out in the street. People often worry about the wrong things in life. MDMA dehydration is one of them.

My own MDMA knowledge: illegality is far more dangerous. Illegal MDMA either comes as a pressed pill, and then the question is 'is this even MDMA?', or as a powder (and then it is the same problem), or as a cryatalline solid that might just be meth. I'm fairly certain that the teltale sign it's got MDMA in it is that the shit reeks like rancid condoms.

The dehydration thing is mostly a myth. You can and do get thirsty on MDMA, at least the real stuff. And you can get hungry too, though admittedly if you eat too much you'll puke it up.

That said, MDMA has well known neurotoxic effects, and most people who sell it arent so keen on making sure the people taking it don't burn themselves out with the simple precautions that are available. Also, let's not forget MDMA related suicides from the resultant crash the week after a person takes it.

If it were legal, all the things I just said would be teachable in a highschool health class. People would drink water because they would be convinced by education that they had to. They wouldn't get mdb or LSA or 2ce instead of mdma because it'd be made by a real pharma. It would be sold buffered with vitamin C, E, lipoic acid, and a time release dose of THC. It would come with a week after kit of 5-htp, and people would know how to use it.

It would also finally see a return to psychiatric use. MDMA let me enjoy ice cream for the first time in my life, BTW. So a vote against safe, legal MDMA is a vote against ice cream.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Doctors prescribe drugs for a reason. Healthy people are not supposed to take drugs. So leave doctors and their patients alone.

This is just semantics. Every human culture has psychoactive substances that are socially sanctioned. In Swedish we have different words for drugs that are medicines "medecin" and drugs for recreational usage "knark".

 

[DrZoidberg]

A heroin addict with easy access to free heroin and clean needles, can live a pretty normal life.

People can live pretty normal life without drugs too.

We´re talking heroin addicts. Are you seriously saying that a heroin addict can live a perfectly normal life without heroin? That they should just stop? Is that your argument?

 

[barbos]

LOL, Teaching how to properly take drugs in school. Someone is really overdosing on some of the hallucinogenic drugs

- - - Updated - - -

People can live pretty normal life without drugs too.

We´re talking heroin addicts. Are you seriously saying that a heroin addict can live a perfectly normal life without heroin? That they should just stop? Is that your argument?

No, I am saying we need fewer heroin addicts, not more.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That said, MDMA has well known neurotoxic effects, and most people who sell it arent so keen on making sure the people taking it don't burn themselves out with the simple precautions that are available.

But this can be solved with a simple warning label on the packaging. I remember when mdma was new in the 90íes. People were eating that shit like crazy saying stuff like "mdma just doesn´t work for me anymore". With the follow up question being how often they eat it and mystery solved.

Once tolerance has been achieved, which is very rapid on mdma, it´s simply unfun to take it. All you need to do is explain this to somebody who has experienced this tolerance problem and they´ll instantly understand and comply. I´ve seen it happen hundreds of times. This is purely an informational issue.

Also... mdma is just another type of SSRI. We have people who have taken those every day for 30 years. If they´re fine... than so will people who do mdma.

Also, let's not forget MDMA related suicides from the resultant crash the week after a person takes it.

Impossible to measure. Obviously a person with depressive traits is more likely to be attracted to a drug like mdma. Nobody can know how likely it is they would have committed suicide anyway.

If it were legal, all the things I just said would be teachable in a highschool health class. People would drink water because they would be convinced by education that they had to. They wouldn't get mdb or LSA or 2ce instead of mdma because it'd be made by a real pharma. It would be sold buffered with vitamin C, E, lipoic acid, and a time release dose of THC. It would come with a week after kit of 5-htp, and people would know how to use it.

It would also finally see a return to psychiatric use. MDMA let me enjoy ice cream for the first time in my life, BTW. So a vote against safe, legal MDMA is a vote against ice cream.

yup. The best argument for decriminalizing mdma in my opinion is the fact that kids today just don´t care that it´s illegal. They take it anyway as if it is legal. Kids today know that chances of getting caught are so infinitesimally small it´s not worth worrying about.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We´re talking heroin addicts. Are you seriously saying that a heroin addict can live a perfectly normal life without heroin? That they should just stop? Is that your argument?

No, I am saying we need fewer heroin addicts, not more.

Do you have an actual suggestion for how this can be achieved or are you just hoping that all the world´s heroin addicts suddenly start listening to you personally and simply just stop because that is your opinion?

 

[repoman]

I haven't read any of this thread yet, but I just started watching South Park season 15, episode 14. In it Kenny's parents get busted live on a tv show called "White trash in trouble". looks like a better episode as far as the politics go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Addicts don't need help if addiction isn't all that bad. How much help to people who have a drink every night, or who smoke cigarettes, need?

If you smoke the odds are you'll die of smoking. That sounds like a situation where help is needed.

 

[Jarhyn]

But this can be solved with a simple warning label on the packaging. I remember when mdma was new in the 90íes. People were eating that shit like crazy saying stuff like "mdma just doesn´t work for me anymore". With the follow up question being how often they eat it and mystery solved.

Once tolerance has been achieved, which is very rapid on mdma, it´s simply unfun to take it. All you need to do is explain this to somebody who has experienced this tolerance problem and they´ll instantly understand and comply. I´ve seen it happen hundreds of times. This is purely an informational issue.

Also... mdma is just another type of SSRI. We have people who have taken those every day for 30 years. If they´re fine... than so will people who do mdma.

Also, let's not forget MDMA related suicides from the resultant crash the week after a person takes it.

Impossible to measure. Obviously a person with depressive traits is more likely to be attracted to a drug like mdma. Nobody can know how likely it is they would have committed suicide anyway.

If it were legal, all the things I just said would be teachable in a highschool health class. People would drink water because they would be convinced by education that they had to. They wouldn't get mdb or LSA or 2ce instead of mdma because it'd be made by a real pharma. It would be sold buffered with vitamin C, E, lipoic acid, and a time release dose of THC. It would come with a week after kit of 5-htp, and people would know how to use it.

It would also finally see a return to psychiatric use. MDMA let me enjoy ice cream for the first time in my life, BTW. So a vote against safe, legal MDMA is a vote against ice cream.

yup. The best argument for decriminalizing mdma in my opinion is the fact that kids today just don´t care that it´s illegal. They take it anyway as if it is legal. Kids today know that chances of getting caught are so infinitesimally small it´s not worth worrying about.

The depression problem is real, particularly for people who havent mitigated previous use with antioxidants. It increases with lifetime neurotoxic damage too. Suicide is causaully linked to depression. Causing depression increases suicide attempts. It isn't even under dispute. After my first roll I had no 5htp for about 12-18 hours. The crash set in for about the last 4 hours, before the 5htp started working. Life was hell, and the only thing that helped was the absolute knowledge that it was purely caused by seratonin withdrawal/deficiency. Someone unaware of the aftereffects could easily take such feelings to heart, particularly someone with our any prior experience with depression.

 

[Jarhyn]

LoL

"I'm not addicted"

"sure you aren't, if you aren't than prove you can quit"

... I do that...

"You responded to my idiotic insinuatio [so you must be an addict]"

Flawless logic there. For the record, most non-addicts who don't quit don't quit because there's no fucking reason they need to. Weed is pretty much harmless. I'm just giving it up because I have a serious shortage of intelligent people I can use it productively with, and I've explored the feels (well, that and I have a certain really cute friend who doesn't smoke for his own reasons)