Is there anything in Zen?

[AthenaAwakened]

Zen, like any religious practice, is what it is.

It works for some and not for others.

THEREFORE you can not make universal statements about whether there is anything to it.

Unless you can.

Unless you can

 

[Philos]

I think the issue with other practices is that the teacher can become a large scale obstacle to inner peace via wrong view. The other thing is that the teachers are said to be infallible. I do not believe this and had to leave a Buddhist order because of this misguided belief.

O,

I've known a goodly number of Buddhists and Buddhist teachers. I have never asked any of them if they are enlightened, for obvious reasons.

Alex.

 

[Perspicuo]

Agreed.

Hindus (after Patañjali) find enlightenment on merging with Isvara ("the Lord") and Buddhists meditate and find enlightenment when they find anatta (roughly "no-self"). Actually, they attribute what they experience in meditation the "realization" of whatever their philosophy says. Obviously, it's the process of attribution.

Dhyana is just good practice. It helps you defeat stress (Buddha's "dukkha", suffering) and achieve peacefulness , helped by Siddhartha Gautama's 3,000 y.o. prefiguration of cognitive therapy (letting things be, middle path, etc). Siddhartha was one of the two great psychologists before the modern era, the other one being Epicurus. Nowadays we can bring up the research that supports it, and its medical applications (MBSR and MBCT) which have had good success.

AthenaAwakened's disdainful "It's a religious practice" is prejudicial. It's a practice, and one with well-researched real-life benefits. As I already said, you don't have to worship anything, you don't have to change your beliefs or adopt or recite a credo. If your experiences have taken you to have gag reflexes whenever something is labeled a religion or spiritual practice--fine. No one is force feeding you or making it compulsory. Nor I think we deserve disdain or contempt. Peace and love. To each his own. Que será será. Nanoo nanoo.

 

[dx713]

O,

I remember an advertised Buddhist weekend which barred any person from attending who had "Suffered from panic attacks, anxiety disorders or depression."

Alex.

Yes, I am familiar with retreats and gatherings like this. They will tell you that certain teachings will only make those conditions worse.
It is the same with yoga practices. I was restricted from doing fire breath techniques because there was a concern it would induce more panic attacks.

It's good that they do know the limits.
With my mother interested in yoga, modern dancing, voice acting, massage, and all kind of "body awareness" activities, when I was young, I've witnessed or been aware of seriously disturbing situations because the trainers were not equipped to deal with the repressed feelings that the body manipulations had unlocked in some students.

 

[Thomas II]

Alex,

TM vs Zen http://meditationasheville.blogspot.com/2010/12/does-transcendental-meditation-differ.html

If you feel like trying TM, here's a list of centres in the UK http://uk.tm.org/web/guest/local-centres

All the best.

 

[PyramidHead]

I therefore approach Zen traditions carefully, because they appear to me more like a distraction from the actual world, rather than a revelation of the actual world; I just have a hard time swallowing that as evolved beings, we can tap into the ability to sit quietly and discover something true about life, and the accompanying sensation is pleasurable.

I agree with everything you say here, except that it is a distraction. It's an exercise.

An exercise in awareness much less of a distraction than watching a movie, reading a book or daydreaming. The point in case for Zen is that worries and stress and "priorities" are a terrible distraction which takes us away from who we really are, if we're lost in shose stresses of life.

But that is who we are. Even the Buddha said it, and later Hume: we are the content of our consciousness, a "bundle" of our impulses, worries, responsibilities, goals, and accomplishments. When you tune all that stuff out... well, to me it's like being somebody else for a while. Nothing is wrong with that, but I see no reason to identify it as your "true" self, as if beneath all the layers of things you actually do and think for most of your waking life there exists something more genuine. The reason it feels so wonderful to re-connect with the idealistic youth in all of us is because we are no longer idealistic youths! I don't discount the value in that experience, but I still disagree that it's anything like connecting with who-we-really-are; I think who-we-really-are is what we are trying to escape from when we remember the days when we could roam free as children. And, of course, that is also part of who we are, as beings who have invented ways to temporarily quiet the chatter in our heads.

 

[Perspicuo]

I agree with everything you say here, except that it is a distraction. It's an exercise.

An exercise in awareness much less of a distraction than watching a movie, reading a book or daydreaming. The point in case for Zen is that worries and stress and "priorities" are a terrible distraction which takes us away from who we really are, if we're lost in shose stresses of life.

But that is who we are. Even the Buddha said it, and later Hume: we are the content of our consciousness, a "bundle" of our impulses, worries, responsibilities, goals, and accomplishments. When you tune all that stuff out... well, to me it's like being somebody else for a while. Nothing is wrong with that, but I see no reason to identify it as your "true" self, as if beneath all the layers of things you actually do and think for most of your waking life there exists something more genuine. The reason it feels so wonderful to re-connect with the idealistic youth in all of us is because we are no longer idealistic youths! I don't discount the value in that experience, but I still disagree that it's anything like connecting with who-we-really-are; I think who-we-really-are is what we are trying to escape from when we remember the days when we could roam free as children. And, of course, that is also part of who we are, as beings who have invented ways to temporarily quiet the chatter in our heads.

What you say is all very fine. Now remember human language necessarily is trope-filled, and figurative, multilevel language is one of the two superpowers that distinguish humans from our cousins. The other "superpower" is grammar, the ability to make sentences, not as a mere aggregate of signs, but as structures which mean more than such an aggregate. Together we get much more meaning than a simple series of signs: we get statements with multiple layers of meaning.

Exactly what you are is what you are. That is an objective truth.

On the other hand, when I imply being minful helps you "discover yourself and "be who you really are" is a rhetorical trope, and understanding tropes is the hallmark of human intelligence. So what do I mean?

I already explained it, but whatever, here I go again:
When people are up to their eyebrows in work, obligations, so-called "priorities", the stresses of modern life (although I don't think it's so modern), we forget what life is really about, that it's not about those ulcers, that collitis, and backaches I'm so livingly nursing until they're festering big and strong. When I am impatient and calling that mʌəfuckəsʌnuvaghzhaauugh driver in front of me a cocksucking muthafuckingsunuvabitch between my teeth... THEN i've forgotten why I'm here for...

... which is? Having the best time possible in this world while helping others to do the same if possible, of course. That's where things like walking in the woods, yoga, painting, meditation and diary writing are for.

If, at this point, you tell me you don't need any of that, that's fine. Some of us are not so lucky. I for one, was born with a genetic propensity for stress and attention deficit--a poisonous concoction which meditation (and yoga, but I haven't tried that) are like custom designed for.

Some of us just happen to need it.

And you won't find a Patañjali's Witness ( ) or couple of Elder Joe and Elder Smith from the Church of the Latter Day Bodhisattvas knocking at your door. What you will find is your local gym offering yoga or a zen center offering, well, nothing, because zen centers are good for one thing only.

 

[PyramidHead]

But that is who we are. Even the Buddha said it, and later Hume: we are the content of our consciousness, a "bundle" of our impulses, worries, responsibilities, goals, and accomplishments. When you tune all that stuff out... well, to me it's like being somebody else for a while. Nothing is wrong with that, but I see no reason to identify it as your "true" self, as if beneath all the layers of things you actually do and think for most of your waking life there exists something more genuine. The reason it feels so wonderful to re-connect with the idealistic youth in all of us is because we are no longer idealistic youths! I don't discount the value in that experience, but I still disagree that it's anything like connecting with who-we-really-are; I think who-we-really-are is what we are trying to escape from when we remember the days when we could roam free as children. And, of course, that is also part of who we are, as beings who have invented ways to temporarily quiet the chatter in our heads.

What you say is all very fine. Now remember human language necessarily is trope-filled, and figurative, multilevel language is one of the two superpowers that distinguish humans from our cousins. The other "superpower" is grammar, the ability to make sentences, not as a mere aggregate of signs, but as structures which mean more than such an aggregate. Together we get much more meaning than a simple series of signs: we get statements with multiple layers of meaning.

Exactly what you are is what you are. That is an objective truth.

On the other hand, when I imply being minful helps you "discover yourself and "be who you really are" is a rhetorical trope, and understanding tropes is the hallmark of human intelligence. So what do I mean?

I already explained it, but whatever, here I go again:
When people are up to their eyebrows in work, obligations, so-called "priorities", the stresses of modern life (although I don't think it's so modern), we forget what life is really about, that it's not about those ulcers, that collitis, and backaches I'm so livingly nursing until they're festering big and strong. When I am impatient and calling that mʌəfuckəsʌnuvaghzhaauugh driver in front of me a cocksucking muthafuckingsunuvabitch between my teeth... THEN i've forgotten why I'm here for...

... which is? Having the best time possible in this world while helping others to do the same if possible, of course. That's where things like walking in the woods, yoga, painting, meditation and diary writing are for.

If, at this point, you tell me you don't need any of that, that's fine. Some of us are not so lucky. I for one, was born with a genetic propensity for stress and attention deficit--a poisonous concoction which meditation (and yoga, but I haven't tried that) are like custom designed for.

Some of us just happen to need it.

And you won't find a Patañjali's Witness ( ) or couple of Elder Joe and Elder Smith from the Church of the Latter Day Bodhisattvas knocking at your door. What you will find is your local gym offering yoga or a zen center offering, well, nothing, because zen centers are good for one thing only.

I would not dispute the validity and efficacy of zen for dealing with any of the things you mention, whether one needs it or not. The only part I am at odds with is the idea (rhetorical though it may be) that "what life is really about" or "what I'm here for" must necessarily be positive things, and everything else is distraction. I am a pessimist; to me, there is no question at all that life is primarily about struggle, suffering, and frustration. I remain steadfastly convinced that the root of this problem is TOO MUCH conscious awareness. This over-abundance leads to the kind of misery that humans, but not most other animals, have to deal with.

See: Peter Wessel Zappfe

I too have genetic/physiological propensities that hinder my ability to enjoy being alive, and meditation is something that could probably improve my mood about that, or help me lose sight of it for a while. Medication works too.

And I truly appreciate the lack of proselytizing zen Buddhists, although ironically I would probably be a lot more receptive to their message! At least they aren't telling me I'll burn in hell.

 

[rousseau]

While we're on the subject of Buddhism, here's an interesting thread from yesteryear.

A few names in here that seem to no longer be with us.

 

[steve_bank]

Zen was a fusion of Buddhism and the Japanese Bushido warrior code.

 

[steve_bank]

Folks,

A Zen Buddhist master takes a brush and slowly paints a circle in black paint on a large white sheet of paper. A black circle around a white space. He calls this: 'great white space'.

But what is it? I'm no expert on Buddhism (or much else) but would hazard the guess that, for the Zen Buddhist, it is everything. It is also nothing of course, which is the art and maybe the truth of Zen.

A Zen master tells us this, “There is Buddha for those who don't know what he is really; there is no Buddha for those who know what he is really.”

So, we go back to the picture. There is nothing in the picture to fear or want, nothing to run from or towards, except maybe the circularity and enclosure.

A Zen master tells us this,

'Before Zen, a bowl is a bowl and tea is tea.

Studying Zen, a bowl is no longer a bowl and tea is no longer tea.

After Zen, a bowl is again a bowl and tea is again tea.'

So, we go back to the picture. Maybe it doesn't represent anything, just as the bowl and tea don't represent anything. It just is. Maybe there is no circularity or enclosure, just my own fear of those feelings?

There I'm stuck; a feeling of being stuck.

Alex.

If you are looking for a logical analytical image it does not exist. Which I take as the point of Zen.

The tale of monk sweeping the yard and in the act finds enlightenment and tranquility.

There are no western types of causal logic.

A new monk is given a koan or riddle to solve, what is the sound of one hand clapping. He comes back, sits before his master and stars a logical technical desorption. The master wacks him on the head and says try again. The monk comes back, sits down, and waves one hand back and forth in a clapping motion. The master smiles.

A Zen story. Monks walking on trail come upon a master sitting in front of a wooden image of Buddha. They ask him what they must do to find enlightenment. The master replies sit as I do and contemplate the image of Buddha.

The next day they come upon the monk who is chopping up the wooden statue for firewood. Somewhat puzzled they ask what he is doing. The master replies it is cold and I need firewood. Chopping away at conceptions.


It is about IMO at least partly disengaging from incessant chains of logic rattling around in your brain. Getting beyond dualities and direly perceiving, as in the sound of one had clapping. No debate or endless analyses.

 

[rousseau]

I took a few books on Zen out of the library in the past week, and like what I've read so far. The history of buddhism I've been reading for a while now boiled it down to (paraphrasing) 'experiencing life without the duality of conceptual thought'. In this frame of reference even internal thought patterns and emotions would be just natural parts of the physical universe, that can be experienced without judgement.

So if we come at this idea through science and materialism, we understand that everything works on natural laws, and beneath the layers that people tend to pile on top of that, there are core truths about how we and the world work. From Zen we come at that as an assumption, rather than as explicit knowledge.

 

[steve_bank]

The point is turn off the constant analytical logical part of the mind.

 

[Sarpedon]

I thought it was the egotistical part.

 

[rousseau]

The point is turn off the constant analytical logical part of the mind.

I thought it was the egotistical part.

That was closer to my reading of it, but it seems somewhat experiential too, something you can either see or not, but can't be directly taught. Beyond expression.

The Essentials of Zen Buddhism by Suzuki are what I've gone over so far, which I found quite good.

I also checked out Philosophical Meditations on Zen Buddhism by Wright, and Moral and Ethical Teachings of Zen Buddhism by Loori. Both have good reviews but I haven't dove in yet.

 

[skepticalbip]

^^^
You may also try some of Christmas Humphreys' books. It's been a while since I studied Zen and I also found Suzuki helpful but I found Humphreys to be quite helpful too. Sorry, I can't remember which one of Humphreys' books I found so helpful, I read several of his.

 

[skepticalbip]

After analyzing zen for some time and being a seasoned meditator, what I can tell you is: sit.

Let me explain.
The one thing in zen is zazen, the meditation. The hardest thing about meditation is just sitting and doing nothing about anything except being mindful about breathing. When people start meditating, and even after some time doing it, people whine and whine about not being able to do it, "I'm being distracted", "I daydream and forget to mind my breathing", and so on. The only thing to do is consider it normal and when you realize you're off track you just get back on track.

Then there is the hindrance of analyzing your experience. That's when the zen master tells you something like "What is the sound of one hand clapping?". Before you go on to say, "That's stupid! These assholes are pretending to be wise saying something deep and meaningful like that.

You got it wrong. It's the sensei's way of saying "Oh, sod off!", something that you really deserved for being a whiny dick who doesn't get it.

So basically zen is all about zazen. So, that's why I and every zen master in the world, all we have to say to you is: sit.

(By the way, that's what the "za" in zazen means: sit/seat. For example, the cushion you sit on is called a zafu.)

My understanding of the reason students are told to be mindful of their breathing is that it is one of the techniques to help the student calm their mind, to stop or ignore the random thoughts running through it. There is also the technique of focusing on a spot a few inches above the top of the head or focusing on the navel. After the mind is trained to ignore the random thoughts, such random thoughts diminish to nothing leaving a calm, aware, mind - the focus on breathing, a spot above the head, the navel, etc. can be used for the student to get into a meditative state but then should also be dropped to leave the mind completely calm and aware. With enough practice and control of the mind the student should be able to eventually reach a meditative state without the crutch. That is, at least, my understanding and it seems to have been true for me.

Oh, my personal experience was that I found focusing on a spot a few inches above the top of my head to be the most effective.

 

[steve_bank]

The point is turn off the constant analytical logical part of the mind.

I thought it was the egotistical part.

That was closer to my reading of it, but it seems somewhat experiential too, something you can either see or not, but can't be directly taught. Beyond expression.

The Essentials of Zen Buddhism by Suzuki are what I've gone over so far, which I found quite good.

I also checked out Philosophical Meditations on Zen Buddhism by Wright, and Moral and Ethical Teachings of Zen Buddhism by Loori. Both have good reviews but I haven't dove in yet.

You seem to miss the point...what are you experiencing?

 

[rousseau]

'experiencing life without the duality of conceptual thought'.

You seem to miss the point...what are you experiencing?

I like the above descriptor but I imagine the experience and interpretation would vary from person to person.

To me 'experiencing life without the duality of conceptual thought' and 'turning off the analytic part of the mind' are subtly different. Principally, because thought and analysis can't be turned off, but a person can realize that there is a reality underneath the hood of all of the human layers we usually cake onto our lives which our thoughts point us to.

This does a couple things. First it helps us quickly diffuse the more egoist aspects of our thoughts and emotions, and two, it's a pointer toward how tied up our thoughts are with our ego.

Whereas, to me, 'turning off the analytic part of our mind' implies a kind of tension where we're constantly pushing away thoughts, which are only natural. But then, they could mean the same thing depending on how you're defining or experiencing them.

 

[steve_bank]

'experiencing life without the duality of conceptual thought'.

You seem to miss the point...what are you experiencing?

I like the above descriptor but I imagine the experience and interpretation would vary from person to person.

To me 'experiencing life without the duality of conceptual thought' and 'turning off the analytic part of the mind' are subtly different. Principally, because thought and analysis can't be turned off, but a person can realize that there is a reality underneath the hood of all of the human layers we usually cake onto our lives which our thoughts point us to.This does a couple things. First it helps us quickly diffuse the more egoist aspects of our thoughts and emotions, and two, it's a pointer toward how tied up our thoughts are with our ego.

Whereas, to me, 'turning off the analytic part of our mind' implies a kind of tension where we're constantly pushing away thoughts, which are only natural. But then, they could mean the same thing depending on how you're defining or experiencing them.

In context of your response, 'What is the sound of one clapping'? After all the thread is about what is in Zen.

Zen is not about debating finer and finer sates, it is about achieving a spiritual state. It is really quite practical.

What do you think hermit monks experience? An endless internal debate? It is about a way of life.

I am working on a book called Zen And Art O Talking About Zen. Certain to be a best seller.