Israel kills terrorists digging their way into Israel, guess who blames Israel?

[Loren Pechtel]

The decision of the Palestinians in the 1940s lead to the war, that's all. The current problems are because they are unwilling to give up on the path of war.

The Palestinians in the West Bank have, under Abbas and Fatah. And yet the Occupation and the theft of land and resources continues.

You didn't answer my question. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

Fatah hasn't given up the path of war, they just aren't being very active in pursuing it.

 

[Jayjay]

The Palestinians in the West Bank have, under Abbas and Fatah. And yet the Occupation and the theft of land and resources continues.

You didn't answer my question. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

Fatah hasn't given up the path of war, they just aren't being very active in pursuing it.

Just like I haven't given up on writing that novel I always talk about, I'm just not being very active in pursuing it.

 

[Arctish]

The Palestinians in the West Bank have, under Abbas and Fatah. And yet the Occupation and the theft of land and resources continues.

You didn't answer my question. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

Fatah hasn't given up the path of war, they just aren't being very active in pursuing it.

Fatah under Abbas has been very active in pursuing a diplomatic resolution, mainly but not exclusively through the UN. They have forsworn militancy in favor of diplomacy for as long as diplomacy is a viable method for establishing a Palestinian State.

You still haven't answered my question.

You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

 

[Vork]

Fatah under Abbas has been very active in pursuing a diplomatic resolution, mainly but not exclusively through the UN. They have forsworn militancy in favor of diplomacy for as long as diplomacy is a viable method for establishing a Palestinian State.

They don't just want a "Palestinian State". They want to destroy Israel. They see diplomacy as one step on the path. i.e. they aren't strong enough right now to use violence.

 

[Vork]

It is of course the Jewish side that wants peace, and the Palestinian/Arab side that has always rejected peace. You can point to things like the Oslo Accords and Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty. But no, the Palestinians don't want real peace living side by side.

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem. But look, you think Muslims would ever share Mecca with non-Muslims?

 

[sharon45]

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is shared.

 

[Jayjay]

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is shared.

Not according to Israel.

 

[Arctish]

Hello Vork.

Welcome to Talk Freethought.

It is of course the Jewish side that wants peace, and the Palestinian/Arab side that has always rejected peace. You can point to things like the Oslo Accords and Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty. But no, the Palestinians don't want real peace living side by side.

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem. But look, you think Muslims would ever share Mecca with non-Muslims?

Israel not being willing to compromise on Jerusalem means what, exactly? Israel is not willing to sign a peace agreement that doesn't give it exclusive control over all of Jerusalem and the right to evict non-Jews, regardless of thousand of years of Muslim and Christian residence there and the importance of Holy Sites like the Dome of the Rock and the Church Of The Holy Sepulchre?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fatah hasn't given up the path of war, they just aren't being very active in pursuing it.

Fatah under Abbas has been very active in pursuing a diplomatic resolution, mainly but not exclusively through the UN. They have forsworn militancy in favor of diplomacy for as long as diplomacy is a viable method for establishing a Palestinian State.

You still haven't answered my question.

You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

1) Fatah is not looking for a diplomatic answer. They are looking for diplomatic ways to attack Israel.

2) Not taking the path of war?

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12979

Encouraging attacks is taking the path of war.

- - - Updated - - -

Hello Vork.

Welcome to Talk Freethought.

It is of course the Jewish side that wants peace, and the Palestinian/Arab side that has always rejected peace. You can point to things like the Oslo Accords and Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty. But no, the Palestinians don't want real peace living side by side.

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem. But look, you think Muslims would ever share Mecca with non-Muslims?

Israel not being willing to compromise on Jerusalem means what, exactly? Israel is not willing to sign a peace agreement that doesn't give it exclusive control over all of Jerusalem and the right to evict non-Jews, regardless of thousand of years of Muslim and Christian residence there and the importance of Holy Sites like the Dome of the Rock and the Church Of The Holy Sepulchre?

The areas in dispute contain Jewish holy sites. While the Palestinians controlled them the Jews were completely prohibited from visiting them and lots of damage was done. Is it any wonder they wish to maintain control over their holy sites?

 

[Arctish]

Fatah under Abbas has been very active in pursuing a diplomatic resolution, mainly but not exclusively through the UN. They have forsworn militancy in favor of diplomacy for as long as diplomacy is a viable method for establishing a Palestinian State.

You still haven't answered my question.

You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

1) Fatah is not looking for a diplomatic answer. They are looking for diplomatic ways to attack Israel.

2) Not taking the path of war?

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12979

Encouraging attacks is taking the path of war.

- - - Updated - - -

Hello Vork.

Welcome to Talk Freethought.

It is of course the Jewish side that wants peace, and the Palestinian/Arab side that has always rejected peace. You can point to things like the Oslo Accords and Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty. But no, the Palestinians don't want real peace living side by side.

It's true that Israel isn't willing to compromise on things like Jerusalem. But look, you think Muslims would ever share Mecca with non-Muslims?

Israel not being willing to compromise on Jerusalem means what, exactly? Israel is not willing to sign a peace agreement that doesn't give it exclusive control over all of Jerusalem and the right to evict non-Jews, regardless of thousand of years of Muslim and Christian residence there and the importance of Holy Sites like the Dome of the Rock and the Church Of The Holy Sepulchre?

The areas in dispute contain Jewish holy sites. While the Palestinians controlled them the Jews were completely prohibited from visiting them and lots of damage was done. Is it any wonder they wish to maintain control over their holy sites?

IOW, when the war broke out one side wouldn't let people on the other side roam around freely in their territory. Or did you forget that the Zionists didn't allow Palestinians to visit their relatives, much less anything of religious significance, in the area they claimed was now the State of Israel? Surely you remember that under the Oslo Accords holy sites like Joseph's Tomb in Palestinian territory were open to Jews wanting to visit whereas Rachel's Tomb, holy to both Jews and Muslims and the site of a large Muslim cemetery but in an area controlled by Israel, was closed to Palestinians. It was quite a point of conflict and the cause of a lot of angry demonstrations there.

I think your double standards are showing.

Speaking of which, you never answered my question. You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?


ETA: that link goes to a story about a cartoon posted on Fatah's Facebook page that shows a road, the al-Aqsa mosque in the distance, and a slogan that says something like "Hit the gas at 199 [km/h] for Al-Aqsa". Okay. Did Abbas post it? Did his government pay a cartoonist to draw it?

The link says there's another post that says something like "Run over, friend, run over the foreign settler!". Was that Abbas too?

Or is this just the usual Facebook stream of random crap that someone is pretending is the official stance of the Abbas government because there are some folks who believe that if something is posted on Facebook it must be true?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IOW, when the war broke out one side wouldn't let people on the other side roam around freely in their territory. Or did you forget that the Zionists didn't allow Palestinians to visit their relatives, much less anything of religious significance, in the area they claimed was now the State of Israel? Surely you remember that under the Oslo Accords holy sites like Joseph's Tomb in Palestinian territory were open to Jews wanting to visit whereas Rachel's Tomb, holy to both Jews and Muslims and the site of a large Muslim cemetery but in an area controlled by Israel, was closed to Palestinians. It was quite a point of conflict and the cause of a lot of angry demonstrations there.

Lots of Muslims visit their holy sites in Israel-controlled areas.

As for Joseph's Tomb--are you forgetting that it was ransacked and burned by the Palestinians?

Speaking of which, you never answered my question. You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

I didn't address it because I have no knowledge of the case.

ETA: that link goes to a story about a cartoon posted on Fatah's Facebook page that shows a road, the al-Aqsa mosque in the distance, and a slogan that says something like "Hit the gas at 199 [km/h] for Al-Aqsa". Okay. Did Abbas post it? Did his government pay a cartoonist to draw it?

Fatah is the Palestinian Authority. That's the government that you say is after peace actually encouraging war crimes.

Or is this just the usual Facebook stream of random crap that someone is pretending is the official stance of the Abbas government because there are some folks who believe that if something is posted on Facebook it must be true?

It's the real page, not someone pretending.

 

[Arctish]

Lots of Muslims visit their holy sites in Israel-controlled areas.

As for Joseph's Tomb--are you forgetting that it was ransacked and burned by the Palestinians?

I'm not forgetting that.

You are using blatant double standards in your arguments. You talk about Jews not being able to visit their holy sites but don't remember/don't have a problem with Muslims and Christians not being able to visit their relatives, their property, and their holy sites. You talk about a holy site revered by Jews being ransacked and burned by Palestinian rioters but don't mention/have a problem with mosques and churches ransacked and burned by Zionists settlers.

How about we just agree that treating people poorly because of their ethnicity and/or religious affiliation is a shitty thing to do?

Speaking of which, you never answered my question. You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

I didn't address it because I have no knowledge of the case.

It doesn't have to be a particular case although you've seen more than one over the years. It's a simple question. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

ETA: that link goes to a story about a cartoon posted on Fatah's Facebook page that shows a road, the al-Aqsa mosque in the distance, and a slogan that says something like "Hit the gas at 199 [km/h] for Al-Aqsa". Okay. Did Abbas post it? Did his government pay a cartoonist to draw it?

Fatah is the Palestinian Authority. That's the government that you say is after peace actually encouraging war crimes.

Or is this just the usual Facebook stream of random crap that someone is pretending is the official stance of the Abbas government because there are some folks who believe that if something is posted on Facebook it must be true?

It's the real page, not someone pretending.

Argumentum ad Facebook does not make for a compelling case in the best of times. In this case, you haven't even linked to the actual Facebook page or sorted out which posts came from a Fatah spokesman and which ones were from people commenting on news snippets and Russian troll posts.

How about showing us something with Abbas' signature on it, or a speech he made, or the Palestinians withdrawing from their recently won place at the UN, or something that actually indicates they've decided to abandon diplomacy and go back to militancy to get their own State?

 

[LordKiran]

I'm not forgetting that.

You are using blatant double standards in your arguments. You talk about Jews not being able to visit their holy sites but don't remember/don't have a problem with Muslims and Christians not being able to visit their relatives, their property, and their holy sites. You talk about a holy site revered by Jews being ransacked and burned by Palestinian rioters but don't mention/have a problem with mosques and churches ransacked and burned by Zionists settlers.

How about we just agree that treating people poorly because of their ethnicity and/or religious affiliation is a shitty thing to do?

Speaking of which, you never answered my question. You said we don't assign the sins of the father to the offspring. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

I didn't address it because I have no knowledge of the case.

It doesn't have to be a particular case although you've seen more than one over the years. It's a simple question. If a Palestinian with no criminal record has a Jewish grandmother on their mother's side, why isn't he or she eligible for full citizenship in Israel, if not because they are being assigned their father's sins?

ETA: that link goes to a story about a cartoon posted on Fatah's Facebook page that shows a road, the al-Aqsa mosque in the distance, and a slogan that says something like "Hit the gas at 199 [km/h] for Al-Aqsa". Okay. Did Abbas post it? Did his government pay a cartoonist to draw it?

Fatah is the Palestinian Authority. That's the government that you say is after peace actually encouraging war crimes.

Or is this just the usual Facebook stream of random crap that someone is pretending is the official stance of the Abbas government because there are some folks who believe that if something is posted on Facebook it must be true?

It's the real page, not someone pretending.

Argumentum ad Facebook does not make for a compelling case in the best of times. In this case, you haven't even linked to the actual Facebook page or sorted out which posts came from a Fatah spokesman and which ones were from people commenting on news snippets and Russian troll posts.

How about showing us something with Abbas' signature on it, or a speech he made, or the Palestinians withdrawing from their recently won place at the UN, or something that actually indicates they've decided to abandon diplomacy and go back to militancy to get their own State?

What I don't understand is the nature Loren's sentimental attachment to the nation state of Israel. The fuck is that about? If we stop getting involved in the Middle East Israel becomes effectively useless to us as an ally, in which case we have no tangible or practical reason to uphold their questionable regime or having our name tarnished by association.

 

[sharon45]

Israel is the only democracy in that region, and the U.S. has had a very long good relationship with her.

 

[ZiprHead]

Israel is the only democracy in that region, and the U.S. has had a very long good relationship with her.

Why?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This is like a botched prison escape where they shoot the escapees.

 

[Arctish]

Israel is the only democracy in that region, and the U.S. has had a very long good relationship with her.

Their democracy is rigged.

Zionists forcibly evicted a sizable chunk of the indigenous population and restricted the rights of most of the rest during the founding of Israel so they could have both a Jewish State and a democracy. They made sure that only Jews could be citizens so only Jews could vote. Later they grudgingly granted citizenship to non-Jews still living within the area they claimed, but with certain limits that Jews didn't have. Nowadays, Zionist expansion continues in the West Bank in a way that's designed to add the land to the State of Israel without adding the indigenous population to its citizenry.

Anyway, just because a State has a democratic system that allows its favored citizens to participate in their government doesn't make it any better than the Slaveholding States shortly before the Civil War. They had voting, too, and if you were white and male it was great. If you weren't, well.... not so much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What I don't understand is the nature Loren's sentimental attachment to the nation state of Israel. The fuck is that about? If we stop getting involved in the Middle East Israel becomes effectively useless to us as an ally, in which case we have no tangible or practical reason to uphold their questionable regime or having our name tarnished by association.

What I don't understand is your side's sentimental attachment to terrorism.