Jesus Christ's Sins

[lpetrich]

What sins did Jesus Christ commit? I will assess his conduct using what the Gospels describe of him, and I will start off with the Seven Deadly Sins of medieval Catholicism:

Lust - No evidence of this in the Gospels; he even hangs around prostitutes without feeling the least bit tempted. There are lots of speculations that Mary Magdalene had been his girlfriend or even his wife, but those are mostly extracanonical and mostly modern speculations. However, the noncanonical Gospel of Philip states that he was fond of Mary Magdalene, and known for kissing her.

Innocent

Gluttony/Indulgence - He's called a wine-drinker in one place, but aside from that, I don't see much evidence of that.

Innocent

Greed/Avarice - He had none for material wealth.

Innocent

Sloth/Laziness - Though he had stated that he would make his Second Coming in the lifetimes of his listeners, he has failed to deliver on his promise.

Guilty

Wrath/Anger - He foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him, and also at those scribes and Pharisees. He threw a temper tantrum at a certain figless fig tree and also at the merchants in the Jerusalem Temple.

Guilty

Envy/Jealousy - I don't see what would reasonably count as that.

Innocent

Pride/Arrogance - Calling himself the Messiah, King of the Jews, and even God himself could qualify.

Guilty

His score:
Innocent: 4
Guilty: 3

 

[lpetrich]

Now the Exodus 20 / Deuteronomy 5 version of the Ten Commandments. They are not marked out as anything special in the original text, and the Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish versions of them differ in their divisions. But the Protestant version seems to me the most reasonable-looking division of the text, and I will use it.

1. Do not worship any gods in preference to me. -- He worshipped no other gods, period.

Innocent

2. Do not worship depictions of anything. -- He never came close.

Innocent

3. Do not misuse my name -- No hint that he ever did that, though he did get accused of blasphemy:

Matthew 26:65
Luke 5:21
John 10:33

Innocent

4. Do not work on the Sabbath -- He performed lots of cures on the Sabbath and said that it was OK to collect food on the Sabbath if one is hungry.

Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11 -- Jesus Christ defends his disciples' plucking grain on a Sabbath; he also heals someone in that Sabbath.

Luke 13:10-17 -- Jesus Christ again heals someone on a Sabbath.
Luke 14:1-6 -- Jesus Christ defends his Sabbath healings.
John 5:1-15 -- Jesus Christ does more Sabbath healing.
John 7:21-24 -- Jesus Christ again defends his Sabbath healings.
John 9:1-34 -- Jesus Christ does even more Sabbath healing.

Guilty

5. Honor your father and mother -- Not only did he violate this one, he advocated that his followers do so also:

Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 -- he tells someone who wanted to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Is that supposed to be a joke?

Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 -- he announces that he's going to break up everybody's families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.

Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 -- his real family is not his biological family but his followers.

Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 -- he insists that his followers desert their biological families.

Matthew 23:9 -- don't call your human father your real father.

Luke 2:42-51 -- he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.

Guilty

6. Do not commit murder -- He never came close, at least in the canonical Gospels. But if one uses the expanded meaning "kill", then he is definitely guilty of killing a certain herd of pigs and a certain fig tree.

Innocent

7. Do not commit adultery -- He personally never came close, and the closest he ever came was some obstruction of justice in an adultery case:

John 7:53-8:11 -- he convinces some Pharisees that they had no right to punish someone caught for adultery, and she gets off with "don't do that anymore".

Innocent

8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35).

Guilty

9. Do not make false accusations -- The closest he came was his foaming at the mouth at those scribes and Pharisees.

Innocent

10. Do not covet anything -- He showed little interest in material acquisition.

Innocent

His score:
Innocent: 7
Guilty: 3

According to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, however, when he was a little boy, another little boy bumped into him and he zapped that other boy. Thus making him guilty of murder, and changing his score to
Innocent: 6
Guilty: 4

 

[lpetrich]

I now turn to the second set of Ten Commandments, the Exodus 34 version.

1. Worship no other god, because I am a jealous god -- no trouble there.

Innocent

2. Do not make cast idols -- no mention of it, and therefore no hint of how much he followed it or broke it, or how much he advocated following it or breaking it.

Unstated

3. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread -- like (2)

Unstated

4. All your firstborn are mine -- like (2).

Unstated

5. Do not work on the Sabbath -- he violated it several times, as I'd explained previously.

Guilty

6. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Ingathering -- like (2)

Unstated

7. Do not offer sacrifice blood with leavened bread -- like (2)

Unstated

8. Do not let any of your sacrifices remain until next morning -- like (2)

Unstated

9. Bring the first fruits of your land to my house -- like (2)

Unstated

10. Do not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk -- like (2)

Unstated

His Score:
Innocent: 1
Unstated: 8
Guilty: 1

 

[lpetrich]

Some parts of the New Testament address this issue, though they are non-Pauline letters rather than any of the Gospels.

• He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. (1 Peter 2:22)
• For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)
• But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. (1 John 3:5)

religioustolerance.org has some pages on Did Jesus lead a sinless life while on Earth?
Is this a reasonable question to ask?
Beliefs of different groups
Bible analysis, conclusions, etc.

Some people dismiss the question as "petty and small-minded", but others consider it entirely legitimate. Not surprisingly, conservative Xians usually consider him sinless, but liberal Xians are often willing to believe that he had committed some sins.

religioustolerance.org quotes a barna.org survey that found these percentages of people in various Xian sects that believe that JC had been sinless:
[table="class: grid"]
[tr][td]Sect(s)[/td][td]Percent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pentecostal / Foursquare[/td][td]73[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Latter-day Saints (Mormons)[/td][td]70[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Assembly of God[/td][td]70[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Non-denominational, mostly Fundamentalist[/td][td]63[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Baptist[/td][td]55[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Church of Christ[/td][td]54[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Seventh-day Adventist[/td][td]45[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Presbyterian[/td][td]45[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Catholics[/td][td]33[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Lutheran[/td][td]33[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Methodist[/td][td]33[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Episcopal[/td][td]28[/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Lion IRC]

Sloth?
Are you for real?
Jesus walked hundreds and hundreds of miles travelling around to far flung places where He fed, cured, comforted the most vulnerable people in society at the expense of His own safety.

 

[Lion IRC]

Wrath/anger
If you check the theology of sin you will find that not all acts are sinful purely by name.
Killing in self defence is not 'wrath'. Eating an extraordinary amount of food is not 'gluttony' if you just got rescued from starvation at the bottom of a mine shaft. Telling the Truth that you are the Messiah isnt 'pride'.

 

[Grendel]

Sloth?
Are you for real?
Jesus walked hundreds and hundreds of miles travelling around to far flung places where He fed, cured, comforted the most vulnerable people in society at the expense of His own safety.

Don't we all do that? Does that make me a son of God? Whooopeee

 

[lpetrich]

Sloth?
Are you for real?
Jesus walked hundreds and hundreds of miles travelling around to far flung places

Where? According to the Gospels, he was never outside of Judea in all of his earthly life.

where He fed, cured, comforted the most vulnerable people in society at the expense of His own safety.

Like who???

Killing in self defence is not 'wrath'. Eating an extraordinary amount of food is not 'gluttony' if you just got rescued from starvation at the bottom of a mine shaft. Telling the Truth that you are the Messiah isnt 'pride'.

Ethical relativism.

 

[Lion IRC]

Not all acts are sinful purely by name.
A person who spends all day in bed is not being slothful if they are a quadriplegic.

 

[Lion IRC]

Doing God's work on the Sabbath is not against the Ten Commandments

 

[lpetrich]

Doing God's work on the Sabbath is not against the Ten Commandments

The 10C's don't make that exception.

 

[Lion IRC]

Yes they do.
Read all Ten collectively.

5. Honor your father and mother -- Not only did he violate this one, he advocated that his followers do so also:

No - He never violated it. He amplified it.
He sanctified the very basis of parenthood - marriage - in which a man leaves his own parents to start a new family.
You don't get to decide what constitutes honouring your parents.

Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 -- he tells someone who wanted to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Is that supposed to be a joke?

Dead bodies don't experience the sensation of being honored.

Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 -- he announces that he's going to break up everybody's families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.

Telling the truth is not dishonoring your parents.

Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 -- his real family is not his biological family but his followers.

That is true.
Jesus is the Head of the family - not a sibling, or cousin or in-law.

Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 -- he insists that his followers desert their biological families.

Yes - if they want to follow Jesus completely they have to chose.
This is a plain matter of fact.

Matthew 23:9 -- don't call your human father your real father.

Lower case 'f' father versus upper case "F" Father in heaven.
There IS a difference - you agree?

Luke 2:42-51 -- he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. "Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?" and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.

This is just you projecting your polemic anti-bible views.
The text gives NO hermeneutic basis for inferring a 'snotty' attitude.

 

[lpetrich]

Yes they do.
Read all Ten collectively.

So what about that?

(Jesus Christ disrespecting his parents)

No - He never violated it. He amplified it.
He sanctified the very basis of parenthood - marriage - in which a man leaves his own parents to start a new family.
You don't get to decide what constitutes honouring your parents.

A big fat non sequitur. I don't see how that negates the rest of what I'd posted about him and his antifamily conduct.

(JC to someone who wanted to bury his dead father: "Let the dead bury their dead")

Dead bodies don't experience the sensation of being honored.

Irrelevant. They don't have to. Lion IRC, if a family member died, what would you say to some other family member who propose throwing that member's body into a dumpster?

(JC will break up everybody's families, and you must love him more than your family.)

Telling the truth is not dishonoring your parents.

What "truth"? That one must desert one's family? That's very antifamily.

(JC's real family is not his biological family but his followers.)

That is true.
Jesus is the Head of the family - not a sibling, or cousin or in-law.

More antifamily excuses. What would you say about some family member who runs off to join a cult -- a cult that says that its members are its members' real family and not someone like you?

(JC insists that his followers desert their biological families.)

Yes - if they want to follow Jesus completely they have to chose.
This is a plain matter of fact.

And very antifamily.

(JC: don't call your human father your real father.)

Lower case 'f' father versus upper case "F" Father in heaven.
There IS a difference - you agree?

That typography only originated in recent centuries.

(JC was very snotty to his parents.)

This is just you projecting your polemic anti-bible views.
The text gives NO hermeneutic basis for inferring a 'snotty' attitude.

It does to me.

 

[lpetrich]

Continuing, here are the Athenian leader  Solon's Ten Commandments, as described in Diogenes Laertius's Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers and quoted in Richard Carrier's article The Real Ten Commandments:

1. Trust good character more than promises - doesn't seem to have come up in any significant way.

Unstated

2. Do not speak falsely - JC did not seem to be an outright liar about anything, though he did not practice what he preached about name-calling (Matt 5:22, but Matt 3:7, 12:34, 23:17,33, Luke 3:7), and he claimed to both (1) uphold the entire Old Testament law (Matt 5:17-19) and (2) revoke some of it (Matt 5:38-41).

Innocent

3. Do good things - a bit too vague; it ought to be clarified in some way, like "try to insure that you do good things and not bad things" or "actively do what good things you can rather than pat yourself on the back about how good you are". However, JC was known for criticizing certain people for bragging about how good they are and trying to seem virtuous.

Unstated

4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made - he withdrew himself from public view after his crucifixion, appearing only to his closest followers after his resurrection, and he abandoned even those people outright by rising up into Heaven.

Guilty

5. Learn to obey before you command - JC was snotty to his parents when they found him studying in the Jerusalem Temple (Luke 2:41-50).

Guilty

6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful - I don't recall anything like that coming up.

Unstated

7. Make reason your supreme commander - he never celebrated reason as good to use, and he'd sometimes throw temper tantrums (in the Jerusalem Temple - Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-16 - and at a certain fig tree - Matt 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14).

Guilty

8. Do not associate with people who do bad things - I doubt if tax collectors and prostitutes qualify.

Innocent

9. Honor the gods - JC honored what he believed to be the One True God, though he never addressed the question of pagan gods.

Innocent

10. Have regard for your parents - like "5. Honor your father and mother" in the first Biblical set of 10C's.

Guilty

His score:
Innocent: 3
Unstated: 3
Guilty: 4


Turning to the Buddha's  Five Precepts:

1. Do not kill any living thing - like "6. Do not commit murder" in the first Biblical set set of 10C's, but stronger. He was definitely guilty of killing certain pigs (Matt 8:30-32, Mark 5:11-13, Luke 8:32-33) and a certain fig tree (Matt 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14).

Guilty

2. Do not take what is not given to you - like "8. Do not steal" in the first Biblical set set of 10C's.

Guilty

3. Do not commit sexual immorality - like "Lust" in the Seven Deadly Sins.

Innocent

4. Do not speak falsely - Like "2. Do not speak falsely" in Solon's 10C's.

Innocent

5. Do not consume anything intoxicating - JC was known as a wine-drinker (Luke 7:34), and he was described as miraculously turning water into wine for a wedding feast (John 2:1-11).

Guilty

His score:
Innocent: 2
Guilty: 3

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wait, isn't Jesus the incarnation of God? If that's the case, then he's the one who defines sin and he can just declare himself not guilty of anything by definition, since he's the one who decides what the definitions are. It's sort of the same concept of how it's not a crime if the President does it.

 

[lpetrich]

Like this? Nixon says, "...but when the President does it, that means it is not illegal..." - YouTube "Former President Richard Nixon, interviewed by David Frost in 1977"

 

[Lion IRC]

8. Do not steal -- He tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35).

Wrong. The donkey is freely loaned to Jesus followers by someone who clearly already knows Jesus.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Wait, isn't Jesus the incarnation of God? If that's the case, then he's the one who defines sin and he can just declare himself not guilty of anything by definition since he's the one who decides what the definitions are. It's sort of the same concept of how it's not a crime if the President does it.

That's my thought on it too. I mean, he apparently decided a sacrifice was required. He could have just as easily required sinners to make animal balloons for salvation. At least that would be more entertaining. It would probably make clowns into prophets too.

 

[Learner]

5. Do not consume anything intoxicating - JC was known as a wine-drinker (Luke 7:34), and he was described as miraculously turning water into wine for a wedding feast (John 2:1-11).

Its more for those that enjoy being stupid whilst incapable to handle their drink, so to speak.

Genesis 27:28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

Wine was a gift from God to gladden men's hearts (Genesis 27:28, Psalms 104:14-15).
Wine was used at weddings and celebrations (John 2:1-3).
Wine was used in worship (Exodus 29:40, Leviticus 23:13, Numbers 15:5).
Wine was used in trade and for payment of debts (2 Chronicles 2:10, Ezekiel 27:18, Amos 2:8)
Wine was used as a medicine (2 Samuel 16:2, Proverbs 31:6, Mark 15:23, Luke 10:34, 1 Timothy 5:23)

 

[lpetrich]

Some fundies have claimed that the "wine" of the John-2 wedding feast was really unfermented non-alcoholic grape juice. I even once saw a very convoluted argument to that effect, but I don't recall much about it. Other that there was supposedly some "good wine" that had been boiled.