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Josephus about Jesus.

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I personally don't believe there was a Jesus described by the Bible, but the whole idea of a man existing that was Jesus seems rooted in the Bible and there was no kernel of truth of a man named Jesus is what I have been going on for a few years now.

I was looking around on wikipedia at the entry on Josephus and Jesus and thought I would ask for some clarification on Josephus' account of a historical person named Jesus which would be in fact Biblical Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

In the Antiquities of the Jews the entry refers to a person “Christ” which, from my understanding, is an entry added by Christians at a later date and that Josephus wouldn't use the word "Christ" because he wasn't Christian, an interpolation as it is called or lie.

And in the Testimonium Flavianum a person is describe as being both “Jesus” and “Christ” and from the same understanding as above that Josephus wouldn't use the descriptor “Christ” is sufficient to discard the entry as authentic to Josephus but rather an addition, an interpolation, a lie.

Any thoughts?
 
I personally don't believe there was a Jesus described by the Bible, but the whole idea of a man existing that was Jesus seems rooted in the Bible and there was no kernel of truth of a man named Jesus is what I have been going on for a few years now.

I was looking around on wikipedia at the entry on Josephus and Jesus and thought I would ask for some clarification on Josephus' account of a historical person named Jesus which would be in fact Biblical Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

In the Antiquities of the Jews the entry refers to a person “Christ” which, from my understanding, is an entry added by Christians at a later date and that Josephus wouldn't use the word "Christ" because he wasn't Christian, an interpolation as it is called or lie.

And in the Testimonium Flavianum a person is describe as being both “Jesus” and “Christ” and from the same understanding as above that Josephus wouldn't use the descriptor “Christ” is sufficient to discard the entry as authentic to Josephus but rather an addition, an interpolation, a lie.

Any thoughts?

It's one of those eternal debates. I'm not enough of a scholar to know if it's an interpolation or not, but am generally skeptical that there was a historical Jesus.

"Christ" is a Greek word, and Josephus wrote in Greek, so it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility.
 
Well, I am attached to the idea that Historical Jesus is Biblical Jesus for one, maybe there will be some confirmation of my analysis or a mainstay as to why the entries aren't authentic if it wasn't because Josephus wouldn't use the term "Christ".
I did a quick search after not having looked up the meaning of the word "Christ" in a few years and it means "messiah", I don't think Josephus would have chosen to use the word at all unless he was describing a messiah, something he would have to attribute to a person and if he didn't believe it is likely he didn't use it at all.
and there are the sticky fingers of Christians, I wouldn't put changing a work to support their ideas at all.
and it is my understanding they were the ones who have the texts and transcribed them.
 
Well, I am attached to the idea that Historical Jesus is Biblical Jesus for one, maybe there will be some confirmation of my analysis or a mainstay as to why the entries aren't authentic if it wasn't because Josephus wouldn't use the term "Christ".
I did a quick search after not having looked up the meaning of the word "Christ" in a few years and it means "messiah", I don't think Josephus would have chosen to use the word at all unless he was describing a messiah, something he would have to attribute to a person and if he didn't believe it is likely he didn't use it at all.
and there are the sticky fingers of Christians, I wouldn't put changing a work to support their ideas at all.

The Greek means "annointed", but was used to translate the Hebrew word for messiah. YMMV.

Since there is a long undisputed history of early Christians editing and changing writings to serve their own purposes, it wouldn't surprise me.
 
Josephus may have written in Greek, but he was a Jew and well acquainted with the messiah prophecies. In fact, he proclaimed Vespasian to be the messiah. I find it doubtful that he would also call someone else that, much less put it in writing...
 
The few things Josephus says about the historical Jesus were written in (or about) the year 90 A.D., over 60 years removed from the alleged events in question. It really is impossible to assure ourselves today that Josephus's testimony (whatever it might originally have been) was not tainted in some way by the aggressively propagated beliefs of Christians of his day. It is nearly certain that Josephus would have been aware of some Christians. It is quite certain that whatever he "knew" about Jesus was acquired at least second hand. Since Josephus doesn't provide sources for the things he wrote it is impossible to go further than that and retain any semblance of credible treatment of the evidence.

While it remains impossible to use Josephus as a litmus test of any historical nugget of truth underlying the legend of Jesus it is possible to reconstruct at least some of the doctrines associated with the early movements of the religion that would eventually become "Christianity." An early core doctrine was placing great importance on "faith." The indoctrination process included warnings that those who do not believe are condemned. Those who believe have hope. It was something of an early Pascal's Wager. The success of it ultimately depended on the salesmanship of the one attempting to evangelize, but it would only take a few really good evangelists to create lots of followers. Most likely the early success of the movement was due to the efforts of Paul going from town to town creating pockets of followers. The dude probably had a certain charisma a-la Koresh, Applewhite, etc. This pressure to accept something as factual in spite of the fact that the individual doing the accepting has no actual evidence of the truth of the matter subverts the entire process of trying to get to the bottom of what, if anything, actually happened.
 
When James, the brother of Jesus, called Christ, was killed in Jerusalem, it reputedly happened when Josephus was a young man. It was a current event for Josephus, not something to be easily dismissed as mere Christian myth.
 
There is a SECOND JOSEPHUS QUOTE about Jesus Christ which is virtually ignored.

There's another Josephus reference to Jesus Christ which usually goes unmentioned:

The younger Ananus, who, as we have said, had been appointed to the high priesthood, was rash in his temper and unusually daring. He followed the school of the Sadducees, who are indeed more heartless than any of the other Jews, as I have already explained, when they sit in judgement. Possessed of such a character, Ananus thought that he had a favourable opportunity because Festus was dead and Albinus was still on the way. And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned. Those of the inhabitants of the city who were considered the most fair-minded and who were strict in observance of the law were offended at this. They therefore secretly sent to King Agrippa urging him, for Ananus had not even been correct in his first step, to order him to desist from any further such actions.
Josephus Antiquities 20.9.1 -- Loeb Edition

Loeb includes the following footnote on this reference, comparing it with the more infamous reference with its "He was the Christ" declaration:

Unlike the passage on Jesus (Ant. xviii, 63-64), few have doubted the genuineness of this passage on James (on which see Schürer, i. 546). If it had been a Christian interpolation it would, in all probability, have been more laudatory of James. Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. ii, 23, 11-18) says that James was thrown down from the "pinnacle" of the temple, stoned, and finally killed by a fuller's club (cited by Thackeray, Selections from Josephus, p. 95).

In the above Schürer reference, there is mention of the possibility of an "interpolation" here. However, the explanation given is obscure: there is another Josephus passage, excluded from most editions, which connects the death of James to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And this less-known Josephus passage, omitted from the Loeb and other editions, might be incompatible with our quote here which mentions "the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ."

The supposed incompatibility might be due to the time gap between this incident, 62 AD, and the temple destruction 8 years later, since the latter calamity for the Jews is said, in the less-known reference, to be a punishment on them for the murder of James. Maybe it is thought that the killing of James story, if genuine, should also include something about the later destruction of the temple. And the date of 62 AD might be too early, and so the death of James perhaps could not have happened at the hand of Ananus as this Josephus reference relates.

But there is no clear explanation given why this Josephus text must be an "interpolation," and it's quite plausible that both Josephus passages are genuine, one connecting the 70 AD destruction to the James murder, as divine judgment for this, and the other one focusing on the evil actions of Ananus in 62 and not on the later events.

Josephus offered many explanations for the destruction of the temple ( http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm ). This obscure reference which connects it to the murder of James could easily be just one more effort on his part to offer some rationale for why God allowed their great temple to be destroyed, because Jews were demanding an explanation for this. This reference, not in the standard editions, is known because it is quoted in some other writings, especially of Origen, and so must be from an alternate version of Josephus. It's not clear why either reference has to be an "interpolation" rather than the two of them simply being two different references in Josephus to the murder of James.

The point is that Schürer implies that this Josephus text is an "interpolation" but gives no good reason. The "interpolation" mention is from I.ii page 186 of the Hendrickson 5-volume set of the Schürer (A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ):

There is considerable ground, however, for suspicion of Christian interpolation, especially as Origen read in Josephus another passage regarding the death of James, in which the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is described as a divine judgment in consequence of the execution of James. This passage occurs in some of our manuscripts of Josephus, and ought therefore certainly to be regarded as a Christian interpolation which has been excluded from our common text. Also in the account given by Hegesippus of the execution of James it is brought into close connection with the destruction of Jerusalem. The year 62 cannot by any means be accepted as the date of his death.

This follows the "brother of Jesus who was called the Christ" quote, implying that this quote is an "interpolation." And yet, the above explanation actually says it's the other version, quoted by Origen, which is the "interpolation." So it's not clear what Schürer's "interpolation" point is or why either Josephus text has to be an "interpolation." Nor why the year 62 or thereabouts could not be when James was killed.

So I think respectfully that Schürer misses the boat here.

So this Josephus quote, probably authentic, as the Loeb footnote concludes, is good evidence for the historicity of Jesus, regardless of the other more famous quote which is mostly rejected as an interpolation.
 
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oh fuck, here we go... page after useless page.
Lumpenproletariat, you didn't even bother to read the post that was before yours.

on a side note, on the wikipedia page Richard Carrier is mentioned and the article puts his analysis bluntly.
the reference "who was called Christ" doesn't add any uniformity of the text, but if it is removed it improves the unity of the text ( Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1)) where James is mentioned... I'm paraphrasing..
 
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So this Josephus quote, probably authentic, as the Loeb footnote concludes, is good evidence for the historicity of Jesus, regardless of the other more famous quote which is mostly rejected as an interpolation.
Well, at best it's evidence that someone told Josephus that there was this guy, named Jesus, called The Anointed. Exactly how much does that help establish the historicity of Jesus?
If i said that this guy, Joe Isuzu, sold my brother his first Trooper, does that establish the history of Joe Isuzu?
Or just establish that my brother claimed to have bought the Trooper from a fictional character created for an ad campaign that i might not be aware of?

My NOTHING, Lumpy, but you'll accept ANYTHING as 'good evidence' for Jesus, won't you?
 
The Josephus quote is probably authentic.

oh fuck, here we go... page after useless page.
Lumpenproletariat, you didn't even bother to read the post that was before yours.

Upon seeing it I went back and edited my title.


on a side note, on the wikipedia page Richard Carrier is mentioned and the article puts his analysis bluntly.
the reference "who was called Christ" doesn't add any uniformity of the text, but if it is removed it improves the unity of the text ( Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1)) where James is mentioned... I'm paraphrasing..

Mainline scholars agree that the Josephus quote, "who was called Christ," is authentic, not an interpolation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
The context of the passage is the period following the death of Porcius Festus, and the journey to Alexandria by Lucceius Albinus, the new Roman Procurator of Judea, who held that position from 62 AD to 64 AD.[26] Because Albinus' journey to Alexandria had to have concluded no later than the summer of 62 AD, the date of James' death can be assigned with some certainty to around that year.[26][29][25] The 2nd century chronicler Hegesippus also left an account of the death of James, and while the details he provides diverge from those of Josephus, the two accounts share similar elements.[30][14][29]

Representing the contrary view, Richard Carrier argues that the words "the one called Christ" likely resulted from the accidental insertion of a marginal note added by some unknown reader.[31] He proposes that the original text referred to a brother James of the high priest Jesus ben Damneus mentioned in the same narrative, given the straight forward nature of the text without that insertion. James (the brother of Jesus) is executed by Ananus. The Jews get angry at this. Complaints and demands are made. The King removes Ananus from being High Priest. Jesus, the son of Damneus, is made high priest.[31]

Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" [12] and has rejected its being the result of later interpolation.[13][32][1][2][16] Moreover, in comparison with Hegesippus' account of James' death, most scholars consider Josephus' to be the more historically reliable.[30] However, a few scholars question the authenticity of the reference, based on various arguments, but primarily based on the observation that various details in The Jewish War differ from it.[33][34]

"almost universally"

On the very last point, there are many examples where Jewish War differs from Antiquities. Minor discrepancies.
 
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yeah, there is some dissent from theologians and some other interested parties about Richard Carriers analysis.
It could be an authentic entry ("Jesus, who was called Christ") or the entry could not be authentic, and even if it is authentic and scribed by Josephus himself there is nothing more than a story at best for the entry to be based upon.
And Richard Carrier's analysis that uniformity is better without the entry "Jesus, who was called Christ" stands.
Christians interpolate and plagiarise all throughout history, why not in this case?
 
The Josephus quote is probably authentic.
Which still does, um, what, for establishing historicity?
Did Josephus HAVE to meet Jesus in order to mention him?
for that matter, does Jesus HAVE to have been the messiah to be mentioned here?
Did Jesus HAVE to have done miracles in order for Josephus to have heard of him?
 
and did Jesus have to be more than a character in a story for the entry to be "authentic"?
 
I do like how Lumpy is paying a lot of attention to an almost universal conclusion among actual historians, while elsewhere completely ignoring how historians actually work to evaluate ancient documents...
 
As the much-maligned G.A. Wells noted in Did Jesus Exist?, "In Josephus's entire work the word 'Christ' occurs only in the two passages about Jesus and his brother James. This hardly strengthens the case for their authenticity."

Earl Doherty argues that both passages are phony. I've just ordered Richard Carrier's book, I imagine he will be taking a similar line.

It's also noteworthy that Philo and Justus, two other contemporary Jewish historians, never mentioned Jesus or his Merry Men either, despite the fact that they are supposed to have created a huge sensation in Israel.
 
Josephus may have written in Greek, but he was a Jew and well acquainted with the messiah prophecies. In fact, he proclaimed Vespasian to be the messiah. I find it doubtful that he would also call someone else that, much less put it in writing...

Main reason why I consider that passage to be an obvious forgery.

Josephus, having declared Vespasian as messiah (probably to save his own skin) was now living in Rome with Vespasian as his patron - living under his roof, eating his food and with the emperor footing his bills.

There is no way in all the multi-verses Josephus would ever claim ANYone else to be a messiah much less writing such words.

- - - Updated - - -

a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ

And isn't one of the arguments for this James not being the literal brother of Jesus is the common usage of "brother" in a religious sense?
 
Here's a Jesus-debunker gaff big enough to ride a camel through.

As the much-maligned G.A. Wells noted in Did Jesus Exist?, "In Josephus's entire work the word 'Christ' occurs only in the two passages about Jesus and his brother James. This hardly strengthens the case for their authenticity."

Earl Doherty argues that both passages are phony. I've just ordered Richard Carrier's book, I imagine he will be taking a similar line.

It's also noteworthy that Philo and Justus, two other contemporary Jewish historians, never mentioned Jesus or his Merry Men either, despite the fact that they are supposed to have created a huge sensation in Israel.

Your choice of authorities is discredited by your mention of Earl Doherty which I clicked out of curiosity.

I came across this:

The Alexandrian philosopher Philo had mentioned his death under Pilate in speaking of the Roman governor’s reprehensible career in Judea.

Perhaps it is a mistake (an obvious confusion with Tacitus-Josephus), but such a gaff shows incompetency and no need to waste any more time reading him further. Doesn't someone read his pages and check for accuracy? This is inexcusable.

You need to come up with better gurus than this.

I came across this gaff within less than 5 minutes of browsing. Who knows how much more he shoots himself in the foot? You should contact him and help him out. Maybe find a replacement for him.

Is this the kind of source you guys get your "facts" from?
 
I came across this gaff within less than 5 minutes of browsing.
Speaking of gaffs, did you miss the opening statement of that passage:

In an alternate universe to this one,
where he goes on to suggest the details we might have found in the historical record IFF we were to assume that the Jesus story was real?

You're dismissing him as incompetent because you didn't read for comprehension. So what does that make you?
 
I came across this gaff within less than 5 minutes of browsing. Who knows how much more he shoots himself in the foot? You should contact him and help him out. Maybe find a replacement for him.

Is this the kind of source you guys get your "facts" from?
It took me about 2 minutes to find your quote and about 30 seconds to see:
Contrasting Worlds

In an alternate universe to this one, scholars investigating Christianity’s origins are a happy lot. There, the man whom 2000 years of Christian tradition places at the genesis of the movement enjoys ample attestation....
But I can see how you might have missed that. It was a couple of paragraphs up the page. And yet...
In that alternate world, ...
When scholars in that alternate universe ...
Even in that contented place, however, ...
He starts every paragraph, including the one you quoted, reminding the reader that this is not the historical world we're living in, but an imaginary one.

Congratulations, Lumpy! You've QUOTE MINED someone!

Posted a quote taken out of context that, when understood, does NOT discredit an opponent's source, but instead makes you look either dishonest or like a pompous moron.

Your development as an online apologist continues to strengthen.
 
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