Khashoggi's Death

[Cheerful Charlie]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/ja...7-minutes-saudi-killer-drowned-screams-music/

Khashoggi was tortured and killed by being hacked apart with saws. Not good reading for the squeamish. meanwhile, out collective GOP president and leaders seem to be jamming their thumbs up their butts and looking the other way over this. As usual hoping that it will become old news if they can only ignore it for a while.

And the Saudis? Will they depose their evil new king over this and arrest the killers that operate in that kingdom? I won't hold my breathe.

 

[Derec]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/ja...7-minutes-saudi-killer-drowned-screams-music/

Khashoggi was tortured and killed by being hacked apart with saws.

The only source for these claims are the Turks. And I would not necessarily trust their veracity. Now, he almost certainly did get whacked, but all the gory details are probably heavily exaggerated by Erdogan's regime.

Not good reading for the squeamish. meanwhile, out collective GOP president and leaders seem to be jamming their thumbs up their butts and looking the other way over this. As usual hoping that it will become old news if they can only ignore it for a while.

I think it's the opposite. The media and many politicians (calm your tits, Lindsey!) are losing their minds over it way out of proportion. Putin had scores of enemies whacked, including journalists, sometimes in places like London, and you do not see that much outcry compared to this shitstorm. So why is this Khishgory so damn special? Is it because he is a Muslim Brotherhood member?

And the Saudis? Will they depose their evil new king over this and arrest the killers that operate in that kingdom? I won't hold my breathe.

Evil new king? Do you mean Salman? He is not exactly new, having been on the throne since 2015. Or do you mean his son, MbS? He is not exactly king.

All that said, any regime change would likely be much worse than the Saudi rule.

 

[Deepak]

The only source for these claims are the Turks. And I would not necessarily trust their veracity. Now, he almost certainly did get whacked, but all the gory details are probably heavily exaggerated by Erdogan's regime.

I think it's the opposite. The media and many politicians (calm your tits, Lindsey!) are losing their minds over it way out of proportion. Putin had scores of enemies whacked, including journalists, sometimes in places like London, and you do not see that much outcry compared to this shitstorm. So why is this Khishgory so damn special? Is it because he is a Muslim Brotherhood member?

Confirmed by US intelligence, at this point it's a done deal. I seem to recall a lot of outcry around Putin's killings outside of Russia, and this is special because he was (a) killed in a consulate and (b) unlike Russia SA is putatively a western ally - where most of us in the western world don't really cotton to killing of journalists.

You seem to have a particular hard on for his MB affiliation so I'm guessing you're cool with the murder of journalists who have affiliations with groups you don't like, else why would you keep bringing it up as some relevant point? Should this extend as general policy? And who should decide which journos are indeed enemies of the state?

 

[J842P]

The only source for these claims are the Turks. And I would not necessarily trust their veracity. Now, he almost certainly did get whacked, but all the gory details are probably heavily exaggerated by Erdogan's regime.


I think it's the opposite. The media and many politicians (calm your tits, Lindsey!) are losing their minds over it way out of proportion. Putin had scores of enemies whacked, including journalists, sometimes in places like London, and you do not see that much outcry compared to this shitstorm. So why is this Khishgory so damn special? Is it because he is a Muslim Brotherhood member?

And the Saudis? Will they depose their evil new king over this and arrest the killers that operate in that kingdom? I won't hold my breathe.

Evil new king? Do you mean Salman? He is not exactly new, having been on the throne since 2015. Or do you mean his son, MbS? He is not exactly king.

All that said, any regime change would likely be much worse than the Saudi rule.

Was he in the Muslim Brotherhood? When?

- - - Updated - - -

Confirmed by US intelligence, at this point it's a done deal. I seem to recall a lot of outcry around Putin's killings outside of Russia, and this is special because he was (a) killed in a consulate and (b) unlike Russia SA is putatively a western ally - where most of us in the western world don't really cotton to killing of journalists.

Two things:

1) US intelligence says a lot of shit that isn't true. And they say things for (gasp) political reasons as well.
2) The US seems to be fine with a lot of horrible things SA does that wouldn't be condoned in the western world.

 

[Deepak]

1) US intelligence says a lot of shit that isn't true. And they say things for (gasp) political reasons as well.
2) The US seems to be fine with a lot of horrible things SA does that wouldn't be condoned in the western world.

What nefarious end does US intel lead us to by admitting SA is responsible? If anything they'd want to preserve access to SA military bases and not have this be real. Ditto the White House - Trump wants the arms deal, and access for his and his friends' future business projects.

Even the House of Saud isn't really denying it at this point. Turkey's slow playing the release of information to keep this in the news and to put additional pressure on MbS and SA more generally, and indeed even the G7 is applying pressure for an investigation now. I'd happily place a wager on whether US intel is lying on this one.

Regarding 2, I'm not sure what life is like in your neck of the woods, but I don't think many Americans have much of an appetite for the things that SA does, but as long as it stays out of the news people have the advantage of nonlocal apathy. In this case, as I mentioned, it's staying in the news cycle and therefore appears very local and the details are of course very gruesome.

 

[J842P]

1) US intelligence says a lot of shit that isn't true. And they say things for (gasp) political reasons as well.
2) The US seems to be fine with a lot of horrible things SA does that wouldn't be condoned in the western world.

What nefarious end does US intel lead us to by admitting SA is responsible? If anything they'd want to preserve access to SA military bases and not have this be real. Ditto the White House - Trump wants the arms deal, and access for his and his friends' future business projects.

Even the House of Saud isn't really denying it at this point. Turkey's slow playing the release of information to keep this in the news and to put additional pressure on MbS and SA more generally, and indeed even the G7 is applying pressure for an investigation now. I'd happily place a wager on whether US intel is lying on this one.

Regarding 2, I'm not sure what life is like in your neck of the woods, but I don't think many Americans have much of an appetite for the things that SA does, but as long as it stays out of the news people have the advantage of nonlocal apathy. In this case, as I mentioned, it's staying in the news cycle and therefore appears very local and the details are of course very gruesome.

I suppose it is true that there is not obvious reason why, although, I feel it is my duty to challenge the whole "the US intelligence services say it is true, therefore it is a done deal".

As for the second point, to clarify, I mean the US Government. The US government is fine with maintaining their cushy relationship with SA despite many horrible things that the western world (including Americans) would find deplorable.

 

[Derec]

Confirmed by US intelligence, at this point it's a done deal.

Which part? Simple fact that they whacked him, or the full Mr. Blonde torturing a guy to music?

I seem to recall a lot of outcry around Putin's killings outside of Russia, and this is special because he was (a) killed in a consulate and (b) unlike Russia SA is putatively a western ally - where most of us in the western world don't really cotton to killing of journalists.

An ally of convenience yes, but they are still an authoritarian thugocracy, so I did not really expect any better.

You seem to have a particular hard on for his MB affiliation so I'm guessing you're cool with the murder of journalists who have affiliations with groups you don't like,

I am not "cool" with murder of journalists. Not at all. But I am baffled by all this gushing over him by the media
And I am also able to see the bigger picture. Destabilizing KSA over Khishigory would be very dangerous for both world oil markets and for regional security.

else why would you keep bringing it up as some relevant point?

I think it is relevant. Contrary to what you might think watching news coverage of the case, he was no liberal. He was an Islamist. Just a different flavor than the kind favored by the Saudis. But Erdogan's party is close to MB. Quite a coincidence, that.

Should this extend as general policy? And who should decide which journos are indeed enemies of the state?

Again, I do not think journalists should be murdered. But my outrage is limited by 1. the fact that it's an internal Saudi affair, him having been a Saudi citizen, and 2. the fact that he was an Islamist.

We should not explode the Middle East over him.

 

[Derec]

Was he in the Muslim Brotherhood? When?

Since the 70s.
Death of a dissident: Saudi Arabia and the rise of the mobster state

In truth, Khashoggi never had much time for western-style pluralistic democracy. In the 1970s he joined the Muslim Brotherhood, which exists to rid the Islamic world of western influence. He was a political Islamist until the end, recently praising the Muslim Brotherhood in the Washington Post.

There you go. Some much needed balance to the coverage.

2) The US seems to be fine with a lot of horrible things SA does that wouldn't be condoned in the western world.

Exactly. This is not the worst thing KSA has done.

 

[Derec]

What nefarious end does US intel lead us to by admitting SA is responsible? If anything they'd want to preserve access to SA military bases and not have this be real. Ditto the White House - Trump wants the arms deal, and access for his and his friends' future business projects.

And many regular Americans work for the companies benefiting from these deals as well.

Even the House of Saud isn't really denying it at this point.

True. They are acting like that dry cleaner from Seinfeld.

Regarding 2, I'm not sure what life is like in your neck of the woods, but I don't think many Americans have much of an appetite for the things that SA does, but as long as it stays out of the news people have the advantage of nonlocal apathy. In this case, as I mentioned, it's staying in the news cycle and therefore appears very local and the details are of course very gruesome.

It will get more gruesome if KSA falls. Which is why it would be a mistake for US to destabilize KSA over this. There were some like Carter who did not have much of an appetite for what SAVAK did in Iran. Turned out, the "Saint" he could stomach was 1000x worse! Let's not repeat that mistake, and certainly not on behalf of a single Islamist journalist/propagandist.

 

[Deepak]

I suppose it is true that there is not obvious reason why, although, I feel it is my duty to challenge the whole "the US intelligence services say it is true, therefore it is a done deal".

I didn't mean to say it's merely because US intel said that.

And many regular Americans work for the companies benefiting from these deals as well.


True. They are acting like that dry cleaner from Seinfeld.

Regarding 2, I'm not sure what life is like in your neck of the woods, but I don't think many Americans have much of an appetite for the things that SA does, but as long as it stays out of the news people have the advantage of nonlocal apathy. In this case, as I mentioned, it's staying in the news cycle and therefore appears very local and the details are of course very gruesome.

It will get more gruesome if KSA falls. Which is why it would be a mistake for US to destabilize KSA over this. There were some like Carter who did not have much of an appetite for what SAVAK did in Iran. Turned out, the "Saint" he could stomach was 1000x worse! Let's not repeat that mistake, and certainly not on behalf of a single Islamist journalist/propagandist.

What makes you think KSA will fail? Is Trump going to nuke SA or kill the entire royal family? To channel Orson Welles 'Come on, fellas, you’re losing your heads!'

The Turkish strategy is to apply economic pressure, which is going quite well right now, and get some concession for SA to have their proxy forces not operate in some specified areas and in return the Turks won't challenge a 'transparent investigation' that lets MbS maintain distance from the assassination. Which he'll probably do, as it's better to seem ineffective than maniacal.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

What would be nice, is if the Washington Post collected Kashoggi's columns and put them on line in an organized collection ro keep his ideas about reform in Saudi Arabia alive. Make him a martyr.

 

[untermensche]

It will get more gruesome if KSA falls.

Nice to know you support dictatorship and think that nothing decent could possibly replace it.

If the US had been promoting democracy instead of supporting fundamentalism and dictatorship in the region for decades the region would look a lot different.

There is no bad time to start promoting democracy. This does not mean invading and killing and torturing and forcing a democracy onto people.

No bad time to stop supporting dictators and start promoting only those who speak of democracy.

The problem is US leaders have no love for democracy. They prefer dealing with dictatorships. Much easier to threaten and blackmail and bribe.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It will get more gruesome if KSA falls.

Nice to know you support dictatorship and think that nothing decent could possibly replace it.

If the US had been promoting democracy instead of supporting fundamentalism and dictatorship in the region for decades the region would look a lot different.

There is no bad time to start promoting democracy. This does not mean invading and killing and torturing and forcing a democracy onto people.

No bad time to stop supporting dictators and start promoting only those who speak of democracy.

The problem is US leaders have no love for democracy. They prefer dealing with dictatorships. Much easier to threaten and blackmail and bribe.

Good heavens! Dictatorships are what we find at the head of every US company. Surely you wouldn't equate the evils of a US company to the leadership of Saudi Arabia?

 

[untermensche]

It will get more gruesome if KSA falls.

Nice to know you support dictatorship and think that nothing decent could possibly replace it.

If the US had been promoting democracy instead of supporting fundamentalism and dictatorship in the region for decades the region would look a lot different.

There is no bad time to start promoting democracy. This does not mean invading and killing and torturing and forcing a democracy onto people.

No bad time to stop supporting dictators and start promoting only those who speak of democracy.

The problem is US leaders have no love for democracy. They prefer dealing with dictatorships. Much easier to threaten and blackmail and bribe.

Good heavens! Dictatorships are what we find at the head of every US company. Surely you wouldn't equate the evils of a US company to the leadership of Saudi Arabia?

Dictatorship is a power structure.

The word does not specify which kind.

If it is a dictatorial power structure it is a dictatorship. If one or a few have all ultimate power over others and the others have no power over them it is a dictatorship.

Words mean what they mean.

Words do not have new meanings just because you are talking about an economic entity.

That is a delusion (one of many) created by a proper education.

 

[Jarhyn]

What I find telling is that the GOP got worked up into a lather even after it was known that a military response to Benghazi wasnt feasible, and railed against the death of a fairly expendable ambassador, and yet attempt to bury the lead over a completely avoidable Assasination of a journalist.

 

[Deepak]

Bury the lede is a bit imprecise - they're taking the 'he deserved it' tack now https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...n-defense-of-trump/ar-BBOA6kY?ocid=spartanntp

 

[Derec]

What I find telling is that the GOP got worked up into a lather even after it was known that a military response to Benghazi wasnt feasible, and railed against the death of a fairly expendable ambassador, and yet attempt to bury the lead over a completely avoidable Assasination of a journalist.

The ambassador was an American citizen and the representative of a US government in Libya.
Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen (or partial Turkish descent) killed in Istanbul by Saudis.

Why you compare these two cases as far as US response is beyond me.

 

[Ford]

Bury the lede is a bit imprecise - they're taking the 'he deserved it' tack now https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...n-defense-of-trump/ar-BBOA6kY?ocid=spartanntp

I was all set to predict that sometime soon, a journalist will be killed on American soil, but then I remember that's already happened. And it was a mass shooting. Reaction from the right wing? Crickets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Gazette_shooting

 

[Derec]

Bury the lede is a bit imprecise - they're taking the 'he deserved it' tack now https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...n-defense-of-trump/ar-BBOA6kY?ocid=spartanntp

It is not that he deserved what apparently happened to him, but neither does he deserve the kind of praise he keeps receiving in US media. including the article you just posted smearing anybody who cares to say anything bad about St. Kashoggi.
And his association with Islamism through the Muslim Brotherhood is a well known fact, not a rumor. And it is not some youthful indiscretion, as he maintained the MB ties throughout his life.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, thank god he was tortured to death then.

Who's for chipping in and buying the Saudi government a fruit basket to say thanks?