Khashoggi's Death

[Derec]

What would be nice, is if the Washington Post collected Kashoggi's columns and put them on line in an organized collection ro keep his ideas about reform in Saudi Arabia alive. Make him a martyr.

His "reforms" would include Muslim Brotherhood taking over. Things would be worse, not better.

Again. Kashoggi was no liberal. He was an Islamist. His support for democracy went only as far as he thought that people in Arab countries would elect leadership more Islamist than the current ones. See Egypt where the people elected Muslim Brother Mohammed Morsi. Or Palestinian territories where they overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, an offshoot of MB.

 

[Derec]

Nice to know you support dictatorship and think that nothing decent could possibly replace it.

Not exactly support, but acknowledge that it is what it is. It's Realpolitik.
It is not feasible to have a liberal democracy in Saudi Arabia right now. It would be possible to have it in Iran if weird beards were removed, but not in Saudi Arabia. What your approach would lead to was a pseudodemocracy where the Islamists take over. But instead of being run by hypocrites like the Saudi royal family, you'd have a bunch of true believers.

If the US had been promoting democracy instead of supporting fundamentalism and dictatorship in the region for decades the region would look a lot different.

Sigh. The problem with democracy is always the demos. If society is not ready for democracy you can get very bad results.
torturing and forcing a democracy onto people.

The problem is US leaders have no love for democracy. They prefer dealing with dictatorships. Much easier to threaten and blackmail and bribe.

Again, depends on what kind of government the democracy in question produces. Democracy is no panacea after all.

 

[Derec]

Who's for chipping in and buying the Saudi government a fruit basket to say thanks?

Maybe a bottle of single malt. MbS drinks, right?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Who's for chipping in and buying the Saudi government a fruit basket to say thanks?

Maybe a bottle of single malt. MbS drinks, right?

I assume so. I don't see any rationale as to why he'd be bound by the restrictions he places on the peasants.

 

[laughing dog]

Exactly. This is not the worst thing KSA has done.

Oh well, then there is nothing to talk about at all.

 

[Derec]

I assume so. I don't see any rationale as to why he'd be bound by the restrictions he places on the peasants.

 

[untermensche]

Not exactly support, but acknowledge that it is what it is. It's Realpolitik.

Nothing real about it. Nothing true about it.

It is just something people that don't like democracy very much believe even though it is total nonsense.

 

[ZiprHead]

Jamal Khashoggi: What the Arab world needs most is free expression

WAPO link so open in incognito window.

 

[Elixir]

Turks are now reporting that Khashoggi was made to speak directly to SbM right before the murder:

“Khashoggi was detained by the Saudi team inside the consulate building. Then Prince Mohammed contacted Khashoggi by phone and tried to convince him to return to Riyadh.
Khashoggi refused Prince Mohammed’s offer out of fear he would be arrested and killed if he returned. The assassination team then killed Khashoggi after the conversation ended.”

 

[untermensche]

His "reforms" would include Muslim Brotherhood taking over....

People are free to support the Muslim Brotherhood.

People are free to support who they want to support.

The Saudi dictatorship is not better than much.

It is not better than the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Jarhyn]

What I find telling is that the GOP got worked up into a lather even after it was known that a military response to Benghazi wasnt feasible, and railed against the death of a fairly expendable ambassador, and yet attempt to bury the lead over a completely avoidable Assasination of a journalist.

The ambassador was an American citizen and the representative of a US government in Libya.
Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen (or partial Turkish descent) killed in Istanbul by Saudis.

Why you compare these two cases as far as US response is beyond me.

Maybe because I don't give a greasy whoremonger-shaped shit about whether someone was a US citizen or whether they represent our government's interests as an indicator of whether malfeasance happened on behalf of our government WRT those persons?

 

[Elixir]

What I find telling is that the GOP got worked up into a lather even after it was known that a military response to Benghazi wasnt feasible, and railed against the death of a fairly expendable ambassador, and yet attempt to bury the lead over a completely avoidable Assasination of a journalist.

The ambassador was an American citizen and the representative of a US government in Libya.
Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen (or partial Turkish descent) killed in Istanbul by Saudis.

Why you compare these two cases as far as US response is beyond me.

Maybe because I don't give a greasy whoremonger-shaped shit about whether someone was a US citizen or whether they represent our government's interests as an indicator of whether malfeasance happened on behalf of our government WRT those persons?

Well, that's just WRONG. You're s'posed to all-a-lather ONLY when a white American citizen is abused by the government. And only Democrats abuse white American citizens.

 

[Derec]

Maybe because I don't give a greasy whoremonger-shaped shit about whether someone was a US citizen or whether they represent our government's interests as an indicator of whether malfeasance happened on behalf of our government WRT those persons?

As far as US government response is concerned, it certainly should matter whether somebody is a US citizen, and whether they represent US government in an ambassadorial capacity.
Second, where do you get the idea that there was malfeasance from "our government"? Khashigory was killed in Turkey presumably by Saudis. US was not involved, silly conspiracy theories aside.

 

[Derec]

Nothing real about it. Nothing true about it.

Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

It is just something people that don't like democracy very much believe even though it is total nonsense.

You have not shown that democracy in Saudi Arabia would make things better. I maintain it would make things worse.
Democracy is only a good thing if certain conditions are met. In most of the Islamic world, democracy means rules by Islamist parties. Not a good outcome.

 

[Derec]

Turks are now reporting

Turks have their own ax to grind vis a vis Saudi Arabia and they also have been moving in an increasingly Islamist direction in the last two decades.
I would take whatever Turks say with a huge pile of salt.

 

[Derec]

People are free to support the Muslim Brotherhood.

Political parties can get banned. NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party) and KPD (Communist Party of Germany) are both banned in Germany. I do not think Palestinian elections, for example, should allow Hamas (a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot and internationally recognized terrorist organization) to stand for them.

People are free to support who they want to support.

Doens't mean we should support them doing so in all cases.

The Saudi dictatorship is not better than much.

Depends where you look.

It is not better than the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[J842P]

Nothing real about it. Nothing true about it.

Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

It is just something people that don't like democracy very much believe even though it is total nonsense.

You have not shown that democracy in Saudi Arabia would make things better. I maintain it would make things worse.
Democracy is only a good thing if certain conditions are met. In most of the Islamic world, democracy means rules by Islamist parties. Not a good outcome.

And in Saudi Arabia, the status quo is direct rule by the ulema, which is currently dominated by the worst of the worst: the salafists.

Look, I get what you are saying, but I don't think there is much of a difference between the Islamist parties that would want to overturn the current monarchy and the status quo. I don't see much reason to prefer one over the other.

 

[barbos]

Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.


You have not shown that democracy in Saudi Arabia would make things better. I maintain it would make things worse.
Democracy is only a good thing if certain conditions are met. In most of the Islamic world, democracy means rules by Islamist parties. Not a good outcome.

And in Saudi Arabia, the status quo is direct rule by the ulema, which is currently dominated by the worst of the worst: the salafists.

Look, I get what you are saying, but I don't think there is much of a difference between the Islamist parties that would want to overturn the current monarchy and the status quo. I don't see much reason to prefer one over the other.

Well, current status quo lets US have military bases and buys weapons. Plus tolerates Israel.
Democracy there is a pipe dream, even Obama understood that, that's why he let SA to squash Arab spring in Bahrain.

 

[untermensche]

Nothing real about it. Nothing true about it.

Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

Democracy is very practical.

And your claims that it is possible for some humans and not others is not real or true.

Nothing real about it. Nothing true about it.

You have not shown that democracy in Saudi Arabia would make things better.

Democracy make a government legitimate.

It grants to humans with power legitimacy.

Legitimacy is always better.



That democracy is better than dictatorship is an accepted fact in the modern world.

To those who think morally.

For those who think immorally, they should not be allowed any power.

They make things worse and worse.

They do things like attack Iraq and torture innocents when things get tough.