Laws of Nature

[fast]

The universe doesn't abide by rules.

Organic chemists say otherwise.

They know some of the rules and can use them to make molecules of their choosing.

So? Are you using "abide" in some thought neutral way? It's like saying computers think. They compute, sure, but if you think computers think, then maybe you think the universe also obeys laws. I can choose to disobey human made laws, so I can obey or disobey, but if you think there are kinds of laws I can't disobey, then I would submit that those kinds of laws are not the kind one can obey or disobey. Same with the universe and abiding. If unabiding isn't an option, then I'd rather think the universe isn't the kind of thing that abides.

 

[untermensche]

Organic chemists say otherwise.

They know some of the rules and can use them to make molecules of their choosing.

So? Are you using "abide" in some thought neutral way? It's like saying computers think. They compute, sure, but if you think computers think, then maybe you think the universe also obeys laws. I can choose to disobey human made laws, so I can obey or disobey, but if you think there are kinds of laws I can't disobey, then I would submit that those kinds of laws are not the kind one can obey or disobey. Same with the universe and abiding. If unabiding isn't an option, then I'd rather think the universe isn't the kind of thing that abides.

If a thing abides and is unable to not abide, it still abides.

In fact, it abides in a law-like manner.

 

[fast]

So? Are you using "abide" in some thought neutral way? It's like saying computers think. They compute, sure, but if you think computers think, then maybe you think the universe also obeys laws. I can choose to disobey human made laws, so I can obey or disobey, but if you think there are kinds of laws I can't disobey, then I would submit that those kinds of laws are not the kind one can obey or disobey. Same with the universe and abiding. If unabiding isn't an option, then I'd rather think the universe isn't the kind of thing that abides.

If a thing abides and is unable to not abide, it still abides.

In fact, it abides in a law-like manner.

That's like saying my dish washer abides by my commands. The possibility of choice is absent. Not just that choice is absent but the possibility of it as well.

 

[untermensche]

If a thing abides and is unable to not abide, it still abides.

In fact, it abides in a law-like manner.

That's like saying my dish washer abides by my commands. The possibility of choice is absent. Not just that choice is absent but the possibility of it as well.

So what?

Just because a thing has no choice but to abide doesn't mean it isn't abiding.

It in fact makes the abiding "law-like".

You are not making any kind of argument.

 

[fromderinside]

That's like saying my dish washer abides by my commands. The possibility of choice is absent. Not just that choice is absent but the possibility of it as well.

So what?

Just because a thing has no choice but to abide doesn't mean it isn't abiding.

It in fact makes the abiding "law-like".

You are not making any kind of argument.

Many definitions of abide either imply or include choice. You're not saying laws are choices are you?

 

[untermensche]

So what?

Just because a thing has no choice but to abide doesn't mean it isn't abiding.

It in fact makes the abiding "law-like".

You are not making any kind of argument.

Many definitions of abide either imply or include choice. You're not saying laws are choices are you?

Abide just means; to act in accordance to.

There is no inherent act of "decision making" in the word.

Of course when humans abide we say they have chosen to do so, but that is not what the word means.

 

[fromderinside]

From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abide

Full Definition of abide

abode play\-ˈbōd\ or abid·edabid·ing

• transitive verb
• 1: to wait for : await
• 2a : to endure without yielding : withstandb : to bear patiently : tolerate <cannot abide such bigots>
• 3: to accept without objection <will abide your decision>
• intransitive verb
• 1: to remain stable or fixed in a state
• 2: to continue in a place : sojourn

abid·er noun

abide by

• 1: to conform to <abide by the rules>
• 2: to acquiesce in <will abide by your decision>
  
  

Seems pretty voluntary to me

From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/voluntary

[h=2]Full Definition of voluntary[/h]

• 1: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent
  
• 2: unconstrained by interference : self-determining
  
• 3: done by design or intention : intentional <voluntary manslaughter>
  
• 4: of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <voluntary behavior>
  
• 5: having power of free choice
  
• 6: provided or supported by voluntary action
  
• 7: acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation

vol·un·tar·i·ly adverb

 

[untermensche]

Seems pretty voluntary to me

"To conform to" seems voluntary to you?

All that shows is you have a vivid imagination. There is nothing specifically voluntary or involuntary about conforming.

The ball dropped conforms to the "forces" pulling it to towards the earth.

Something can conform even if it doesn't have the ability to not conform.

 

[fast]

Seems pretty voluntary to me

"To conform to" seems voluntary to you?

All that shows is you have a vivid imagination. There is nothing specifically voluntary or involuntary about conforming.

The ball dropped conforms to the "forces" pulling it to towards the earth.

Something can conform even if it doesn't have the ability to not conform.

"Conform" may have alternate meanings, but why you would think an alternate meaning applies here escapes me. To say that an object falling conforms to the laws of nature wouldn't ordinarily invoke the idea that an object is obeying or abiding to any laws. Some may slip up and be a bit too quick with their word choice and say such things, but it's not even true when people don't slip up and intentionally do it, as is often the case with experts discussing such topics as evolution.

 

[untermensche]

"To conform to" seems voluntary to you?

All that shows is you have a vivid imagination. There is nothing specifically voluntary or involuntary about conforming.

The ball dropped conforms to the "forces" pulling it to towards the earth.

Something can conform even if it doesn't have the ability to not conform.

"Conform" may have alternate meanings, but why you would think an alternate meaning applies here escapes me. To say that an object falling conforms to the laws of nature wouldn't ordinarily invoke the idea that an object is obeying or abiding to any laws. Some may slip up and be a bit too quick with their word choice and say such things, but it's not even true when people don't slip up and intentionally do it, as is often the case with experts discussing such topics as evolution.

I don't have a clue what you're saying.

Are you saying a rock does not abide with the forces of gravity? It somehow resists?

 

[fast]

"Conform" may have alternate meanings, but why you would think an alternate meaning applies here escapes me. To say that an object falling conforms to the laws of nature wouldn't ordinarily invoke the idea that an object is obeying or abiding to any laws. Some may slip up and be a bit too quick with their word choice and say such things, but it's not even true when people don't slip up and intentionally do it, as is often the case with experts discussing such topics as evolution.

I don't have a clue what you're saying.

Are you saying a rock does not abide with the forces of gravity? It somehow resists?

Yes for the first and no for the second. Also, rocks are not happy. Do you think they are unhappy?

 

[untermensche]

I don't have a clue what you're saying.

Are you saying a rock does not abide with the forces of gravity? It somehow resists?

Yes for the first and no for the second. Also, rocks are not happy. Do you think they are unhappy?

If it can't resist then it must abide.

"Abide" has nothing to do with human psychology in this case.

Even though it is also possible for humans to "abide" in a different way.

 

[fast]

Yes for the first and no for the second. Also, rocks are not happy. Do you think they are unhappy?

If it can't resist then it must abide.

"Abide" has nothing to do with human psychology in this case.

Even though it is also possible for humans to "abide" in a different way.

Oh, I know what you mean. I'm questioning that what it means matches what you mean. I'm sure you're comfortable saying that rocks abide by the laws of nature, and I know what you mean when you say it. I even agree with what you mean. I just can't bring myself to agree with what you're saying because I don't think what you're saying is true.

If you told me that rocks are unhappy based on the argument that "unhappy" means "not happy", I'd understand what you mean by "rocks are unhappy," but I wouldn't for a second accept your argument and agree with you, even though I would agree that rocks are not happy.

 

[untermensche]

If it can't resist then it must abide.

"Abide" has nothing to do with human psychology in this case.

Even though it is also possible for humans to "abide" in a different way.

Oh, I know what you mean. I'm questioning that what it means matches what you mean. I'm sure you're comfortable saying that rocks abide by the laws of nature, and I know what you mean when you say it. I even agree with what you mean. I just can't bring myself to agree with what you're saying because I don't think what you're saying is true.

If you told me that rocks are unhappy based on the argument that "unhappy" means "not happy", I'd understand what you mean by "rocks are unhappy," but I wouldn't for a second accept your argument and agree with you, even though I would agree that rocks are not happy.

Unhappy has an "essence" of it's own. It is really, sadness.

It is more than just the absence of happiness.

But the falling rock will move at a speed determined by outside "forces" acting upon it's mass.

It will abide and abide and abide to those forces.

And abiding has an "essence" too.

 

[fast]

Oh, I know what you mean. I'm questioning that what it means matches what you mean. I'm sure you're comfortable saying that rocks abide by the laws of nature, and I know what you mean when you say it. I even agree with what you mean. I just can't bring myself to agree with what you're saying because I don't think what you're saying is true.

If you told me that rocks are unhappy based on the argument that "unhappy" means "not happy", I'd understand what you mean by "rocks are unhappy," but I wouldn't for a second accept your argument and agree with you, even though I would agree that rocks are not happy.

Unhappy has an "essence" of it's own. It is really, sadness.

It is more than just the absence of happiness.

But the falling rock will move at a speed determined by outside "forces" acting upon it's mass.

It will abide and abide and abide to those forces.

And abiding has an "essence" too.

I cannot defy the laws of nature, but it's not therefore the case that I abide by the laws of nature.

My stance is grounded on the same rules of logic that makes "false" imply "not true" but not inversely.

Defying and abiding requires agency. Curiously, I have seen "defy" used similarly to how you're using "abide."

Language, errrr

 

[Juma]

Oh, I know what you mean. I'm questioning that what it means matches what you mean. I'm sure you're comfortable saying that rocks abide by the laws of nature, and I know what you mean when you say it. I even agree with what you mean. I just can't bring myself to agree with what you're saying because I don't think what you're saying is true.

If you told me that rocks are unhappy based on the argument that "unhappy" means "not happy", I'd understand what you mean by "rocks are unhappy," but I wouldn't for a second accept your argument and agree with you, even though I would agree that rocks are not happy.

Unhappy has an "essence" of it's own. It is really, sadness.

It is more than just the absence of happiness.

But the falling rock will move at a speed determined by outside "forces" acting upon it's mass.

It will abide and abide and abide to those forces.

And abiding has an "essence" too.

Yes, and that essence is that it somehow could not abided.

So lets see what happens when nature does not abide. Is it the law that need to be changed or nature?

 

[untermensche]

I cannot defy the laws of nature, but it's not therefore the case that I abide by the laws of nature.

That of course is the unanswered philosophical question.

As Chomsky says; All unanswered questions are philosophical questions, once they have an answer they are scientific.

But it is the question of "will" and the alleged "freedom of will", which if it exists as it seems to exist would also seem to pay no mind to the "laws of nature".

Defying and abiding requires agency.

Not true at all and you can in no way prove it.

 

[untermensche]

Unhappy has an "essence" of it's own. It is really, sadness.

It is more than just the absence of happiness.

But the falling rock will move at a speed determined by outside "forces" acting upon it's mass.

It will abide and abide and abide to those forces.

And abiding has an "essence" too.

Yes, and that essence is that it somehow could not abided.

So lets see what happens when nature does not abide. Is it the law that need to be changed or nature?

The "essence" of abiding is doing something under the control of something else.

The act of abiding points to something that is the cause of the abiding, the reason the abiding occurs.

 

[Random Person]

Abiding and not abiding reflect what our perceptions are about what should happen. Our perceptions are controlled by how well they abide with reality. Reality is whatever it wants to be.

 

[untermensche]

Abiding and not abiding reflect what our perceptions are about what should happen. Our perceptions are controlled by how well they abide with reality. Reality is whatever it wants to be.

Abiding reflects our understanding that many things are possible.

The stone could just float in mid air. It could rise up to the sky. Or it could fall.

Because it falls it must be abiding to forces that cause it to fall.