Leaving woke culture and God

[DrZoidberg]

JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd

He also separates people into groups then stereotypes them. The only difference between his worldview and the worldview of those he sees as evil is which group is identified as "evil" and which is "good". There is no place in such a worldview for the worldview that individuals are valuable and should be judged individually for their individual actions. I tend to see individuals as valuable not arbitrary groupings.

Its guilt by association. If you like something that also Hitler liked, then you are just like Hitler

 

[JohnG]

I don't think that I did. But you give an excellent example of how we tend to only focus on the worst aspects of the people on the other side.

The left have a hard time reconciling the idea that a conservatist is against immigration, while also NOT being a racist. Yes, those people exist and I think are the majority of those against immigration. We really should be better at not projecting bullshit on eachother. Just my two cents.

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about

That's not what the analogy means. It means that everybody loses if we are unwilling to progress, not just racial minorities.





There are benefits to society as a whole if we can lower the financial burden (eliminating student debt) of young people entering the work force, from higher birth rates, to buying houses, putting money back into the economy, starting small businesses (which create more jobs), and more... This is what economists say, the cost is a net positive.

However, if you go to a Twitter thread debating erasing student debt, the number one argument against it you will hear is "I had to pay my debt, so why shouldn't everyone else?" or "I've paid my debt, now I have to pay everyone else's?" - This is the swimming pool analogy.

So what's going on here? We know from studies that people tend to sort themselves into groups (or identities) naturally without any provocation. (The left didn't invent identity, or identity politics). We also know that people are willing to help those of similar identity, and will disadvantage those who are outside their identity, Sometimes even at a cost to themselves (the swimming pool example).

The thought of helping those outside of their identity is a deal killer. The ploy of modern (alt) right wing politics is to highlight divisions, create fear between them, and then cut social programs that help the victims of their racist society.

But again, the answer isn't to homogenize culture. We are going to belong to different identity groups no matter what we do. That is reality. It's not racist to acknowledge that as you state. It's fascist to try and change that. The solution is to create a culture where people's differences are celebrated, and build an inclusive society where we can implement progressive programs that benefit society as a whole, and in turn provide net benefit for everyone.

I want to emphasize that different Identities within a society is inevitable, and makes for a more robust dynamic culture. It is a strength. The right uses it against society to achieve its goals of lowering taxes on the wealthy, and to maintain a social hierarchy where their identity group remains at the top. (John Birch society)

When you say "everything comes at a cost" - be aware that there are policies that are a net positive. Enabling society as a whole is a positive. Burdening groups within our society is a net negative and has known costs.

In India students get zero help from the government and tend to pick fields of study which will lead to a well paying job. This is why India has so many female engineers, compared to the west. They have few frivolous students.

In Sweden higher education isn't only free, but you get a salary for studying. So a lot of people go to university just to be able to be lazy or score chicks. I did this when I lived there. Which is why my first degree was in philosophy and logic. Good to have studied, but from a macro economic perspective, absolute bullshit and a waste of money. Sweden has plenty of people who have been in school most of their adult life. Usually they already have a job, but do the studies on the side for fun.

I'm for the Swedish system, I think it is good. But I also understand that it has a cost. The incentives aren't encouraging people to study things that will lead to generating money. Which would be nice if the state is paying.

I understand if conservatives don't like supporting people through school when the incentives will change.

Americans are more focused on making money than Swedes. Because we have a socialist system. Incentives matter. Conservatives aren't immoral monsters for valuing money in this case. I don't think so. I think both sides have excellent arguments.

I'm from Sweden BTW. I just live in Denmark now. But Denmark has the same system. Works the same way.

India has some of the most reasonable tuition fees in the world. They don't yoke people with debt. Besides, that's just a small example of my larger point - but it adds to the case about the benefits of the advantages of reduced debt.

I don't think making money is immoral, My view is I don't think the free market solves all problems. It's great for power tools, hats, toilet paper, lawn furniture, but not for health care, education, corrections,etc..

 

[JohnG]

JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd

He also separates people into groups then stereotypes them. The only difference between his worldview and the worldview of those he sees as evil is which group is identified as "evil" and which is "good". There is no place in such a worldview for the worldview that individuals are valuable and should be judged individually for their individual actions. I tend to see individuals as valuable not arbitrary groupings.

Hey Skepticalblip, do you belong to any groups? Are you a worker? A parent? A brother? Any group at all?

 

[JohnG]

JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd

He also separates people into groups then stereotypes them. The only difference between his worldview and the worldview of those he sees as evil is which group is identified as "evil" and which is "good". There is no place in such a worldview for the worldview that individuals are valuable and should be judged individually for their individual actions. I tend to see individuals as valuable not arbitrary groupings.

Its guilt by association. If you like something that also Hitler liked, then you are just like Hitler

So your solution is we should eradicate difference among us? Is that your final solution?

 

[skepticalbip]

JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd

He also separates people into groups then stereotypes them. The only difference between his worldview and the worldview of those he sees as evil is which group is identified as "evil" and which is "good". There is no place in such a worldview for the worldview that individuals are valuable and should be judged individually for their individual actions. I tend to see individuals as valuable not arbitrary groupings.

Its guilt by association. If you like something that also Hitler liked, then you are just like Hitler

Only the association is by group. Louis Farrakhan praises Hitler as a great man but he is in a favored group so 'good' and his praise of Hitler is ignored by the woke. Someone who the woke has included in what they identify as a 'good' group can do no wrong - someone identified by the woke as being in an 'evil' group can do no good.

 

[JohnG]

Its guilt by association. If you like something that also Hitler liked, then you are just like Hitler

Only the association is by group. Louis Farrakhan praises Hitler as a great man but he is in a favored group so 'good' and his praise of Hitler is ignored by the woke. Someone who the woke has included in what they identify as a 'good' group can do no wrong - someone identified by the woke as being in an 'evil' group can do no good.

This is not it at all. Firstly - the differences are cultural, not genetic. As I've stated:

individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.

from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/

Hitler didn't recognize rights of all groups of people. He didn't invent identity either BTW. There were Jews, LGTBQ, Russians, etc.. before he existed.

He recognized identity groups to be sure, it's what he did about it is the issue. North America is a multicultural experiment. Conservatives don't want it to be.

As I said - this philosophy is modern (alt) right wing conservatism. Not classic conservatism (they exist too)

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think that I did. But you give an excellent example of how we tend to only focus on the worst aspects of the people on the other side.

The left have a hard time reconciling the idea that a conservatist is against immigration, while also NOT being a racist. Yes, those people exist and I think are the majority of those against immigration. We really should be better at not projecting bullshit on eachother. Just my two cents.




In India students get zero help from the government and tend to pick fields of study which will lead to a well paying job. This is why India has so many female engineers, compared to the west. They have few frivolous students.

In Sweden higher education isn't only free, but you get a salary for studying. So a lot of people go to university just to be able to be lazy or score chicks. I did this when I lived there. Which is why my first degree was in philosophy and logic. Good to have studied, but from a macro economic perspective, absolute bullshit and a waste of money. Sweden has plenty of people who have been in school most of their adult life. Usually they already have a job, but do the studies on the side for fun.

I'm for the Swedish system, I think it is good. But I also understand that it has a cost. The incentives aren't encouraging people to study things that will lead to generating money. Which would be nice if the state is paying.

I understand if conservatives don't like supporting people through school when the incentives will change.

Americans are more focused on making money than Swedes. Because we have a socialist system. Incentives matter. Conservatives aren't immoral monsters for valuing money in this case. I don't think so. I think both sides have excellent arguments.

I'm from Sweden BTW. I just live in Denmark now. But Denmark has the same system. Works the same way.

India has some of the most reasonable tuition fees in the world. They don't yoke people with debt. Besides, that's just a small example of my larger point - but it adds to the case about the benefits of the advantages of reduced debt.

I don't think making money is immoral, My view is I don't think the free market solves all problems. It's great for power tools, hats, toilet paper, lawn furniture, but not for health care, education, corrections,etc..

I think you are straw manning. I think you have created a caricature of the right which you are arguing against. I somehow doubt they think the free market solves all problems. I think they're well aware of the problems. They just think that taking all things into consideration its still worth it. That's a completely different argument than that which you are making.

 

[Bomb#20]

individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.

from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/

Did you read the article, or just the abstract? The full article makes it clear that the authors are using the phrase "genetically more similar" in a peculiar idiosyncratic sense* that's quite different from what the phrase means in plain English. Moreover, the article also says:

It breaks down, however, with data sets comprising thousands of loci genotyped in geographically distinct populations: In such cases, ω becomes zero.

Translating the latter sentence into plain English:

Individuals from different populations aren't ever genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.​

(* Specifically, they're using "genetically more similar" in a sense that's relativised to a specific set of DNA markers. So one and the same person can be "genetically more similar" to you than he is to me relative to marker set A, at the same time that he's "genetically more similar" to me than he is to you relative to marker set B. This is not what normal English speakers would understand "genetically more similar" to mean. If we say it without qualifiers, we'd mean "genetically more similar" across the entire genome.)

 

[JohnG]

I think they're well aware of the problems. They just think that taking all things into consideration its still worth it. That's a completely different argument than that which you are making.

I don't think they go deep enough into the issues. Usually, it never gets beyond "Spending money is bad" - it's never seen as an investment. Immigration rarely gets deeper than "These people will take things from me", Health Care doesn't get beyond, "Why should I help that person?", Women's health rights never go further than "It's God's will"

Not to say the left doesn't follow party lines on issues, I just see more in-depth discussion of issues, root causes, and solutions, coming from the Left.

 

[skepticalbip]

This is not it at all. Firstly - the differences are cultural, not genetic. As I've stated:

individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.

from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/

Hitler didn't recognize rights of all groups of people. He didn't invent identity either BTW. There were Jews, LGTBQ, Russians, etc.. before he existed.

He recognized identity groups to be sure, it's what he did about it is the issue. North America is a multicultural experiment. Conservatives don't want it to be.

No... North America was an experiment of a melting pot where newly arriving peoples of differing cultures were incorporated into and influenced the whole making an 'American culture'. What you are talking is cultural separation like in the Balkans which caused continued strife between differing cultural groups.

I would still like you to explain why no one from the woke culture has criticized Farrakhan who praises Hitler while the woke culture holds Hitler up as the ultimate evil. While I agree that Hitler was 'evil', I don't see it that way because he was a white European but because he personally was an ass-wipe like Papa Doc Duvalier or Pol Pot.

 

[JohnG]

This is not it at all. Firstly - the differences are cultural, not genetic. As I've stated:

individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.

from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/

Hitler didn't recognize rights of all groups of people. He didn't invent identity either BTW. There were Jews, LGTBQ, Russians, etc.. before he existed.

He recognized identity groups to be sure, it's what he did about it is the issue. North America is a multicultural experiment. Conservatives don't want it to be.

No... North America was an experiment of a melting pot where newly arriving peoples of differing cultures were incorporated into and influenced the whole making an 'American culture'. What you are talking is cultural separation like in the Balkans which caused continued strife between differing cultural groups.

I think many on the right see the idea of a monoculture (as long as it's the one they know) as the ideal.

I would still like you to explain why no one from the woke culture has criticized Farrakhan who praises Hitler while the woke culture holds Hitler up as the ultimate evil.

I don't see anyone praising Farrakhan. Are you looking for a written statement from the head of the Left?

 

[skepticalbip]

No... North America was an experiment of a melting pot where newly arriving peoples of differing cultures were incorporated into and influenced the whole making an 'American culture'. What you are talking is cultural separation like in the Balkans which caused continued strife between differing cultural groups.

I think many on the right see the idea of a monoculture (as long as it's the one they know) as the ideal.

I would still like you to explain why no one from the woke culture has criticized Farrakhan who praises Hitler while the woke culture holds Hitler up as the ultimate evil.

I don't see anyone praising Farrakhan. Are you looking for a written statement from the head of the Left?

I didn't expect praise. What I would expect is for someone, anyone, woke to criticize him like they would and do anyone not in what they identify as the 'good' group who would praise Hitler. You didn't answer why no one has.

Maybe you could be the first to condemn him like you do your strawman version of those you decided are your enemy. Be a trailblazer... but then it may get you canceled, so maybe you shouldn't.

 

[JohnG]

I think many on the right see the idea of a monoculture (as long as it's the one they know) as the ideal.



I don't see anyone praising Farrakhan. Are you looking for a written statement from the head of the Left?

I didn't expect praise. What I would expect is for someone, anyone, woke to criticize him like they would and do anyone not in what they identify as the 'good' group who would praise Hitler. You didn't answer why no one has.

Maybe you could be the first to condemn him like you do your strawman version of those you decided are your enemy. Be a trailblazer... but then it may get you canceled, so maybe you shouldn't.

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

 

[skepticalbip]

I think many on the right see the idea of a monoculture (as long as it's the one they know) as the ideal.



I don't see anyone praising Farrakhan. Are you looking for a written statement from the head of the Left?

I didn't expect praise. What I would expect is for someone, anyone, woke to criticize him like they would and do anyone not in what they identify as the 'good' group who would praise Hitler. You didn't answer why no one has.

Maybe you could be the first to condemn him like you do your strawman version of those you decided are your enemy. Be a trailblazer... but then it may get you canceled, so maybe you shouldn't.

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Farrakhan praised Hitler because of the attempt to eradicate the Jews. Surely you don't have enough self-loathing to not condemn Farrakhan for preaching such shit. But then the right condemns him for it and maybe you just can't bring yourself to agree with anything the right says.

 

[JohnG]

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Farrakhan praised Hitler because of the attempt to eradicate the Jews. Surely you don't have enough self-loathing to not condemn Farrakhan for preaching such shit. But then the right condemns him for it and maybe you just can't bring yourself to agree with anything the right says.

If I'm going to base my opinion on Farrakhan on the information you just gave me in your post, then yes he's a bad man. Is your information accurate?

I believe I have read he called Hitler a great man, not sure why, but I can't get behind that statement on any level. As a jew, I am culturally biased against Hitler. There may be things that he did in his life that were positive, maybe he donated to an orphanage, IDK, but I don't think there is any benefit in elevating Hitler for any reason.

This is a weird derail.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Farrakhan praised Hitler because of the attempt to eradicate the Jews. Surely you don't have enough self-loathing to not condemn Farrakhan for preaching such shit. But then the right condemns him for it and maybe you just can't bring yourself to agree with anything the right says.

If I'm going to base my opinion on Farrakhan on the information you just gave me in your post, then yes he's a bad man. Is your information accurate?

I believe I have read he called Hitler a great man, not sure why, but I can't get behind that statement on any level. As a jew, I am culturally biased against Hitler. There may be things that he did in his life that were positive, maybe he donated to an orphanage, IDK, but I don't think there is any benefit in elevating Hitler for any reason.

This is a weird derail.

It gets worse. Nation of Islam has merged with the Church of Scientology. Iron Sky has become reality. Space Nazis!

 

[Mumbles]

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Farrakhan praised Hitler because of the attempt to eradicate the Jews. Surely you don't have enough self-loathing to not condemn Farrakhan for preaching such shit. But then the right condemns him for it and maybe you just can't bring yourself to agree with anything the right says.

Well, the real problem is that the "right", by and large, does not denounce him, despite the fact that he's obviously deeply conservative himself (staunchly capitalist, believes men should head households, deeply anti-LGBT [to the point of claiming that the Jews are behind the existence of black gay men), strongly distrustful of government interference [mostly because he sees it as controlled by white people...which, I mean...], strongly religious [granted, a goofball black nationalist religion, but still]), but rather use him as a bludgeon against black Americans.

Meanwhile, the generation of people who used to use the word "woke" to mean aware of anti-black racism are generally unconcerned with him, and many believe that he died years ago.

It's not much, but he is a useful example to show the complete misunderstanding that white conservatives and centrists have over the very meaning of the term woke", who used it before it became a sneer term for republicans to scare and rally voters, and so forth.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Farrakhan praised Hitler because of the attempt to eradicate the Jews. Surely you don't have enough self-loathing to not condemn Farrakhan for preaching such shit. But then the right condemns him for it and maybe you just can't bring yourself to agree with anything the right says.

Well, the real problem is that the "right", by and large, does not denounce him, despite the fact that he's obviously deeply conservative himself (staunchly capitalist, believes men should head households, deeply anti-LGBT [to the point of claiming that the Jews are behind the existence of black gay men), strongly distrustful of government interference [mostly because he sees it as controlled by white people...which, I mean...], strongly religious [granted, a goofball black nationalist religion, but still]), but rather use him as a bludgeon against black Americans.

Meanwhile, the generation of people who used to use the word "woke" to mean aware of anti-black racism are generally unconcerned with him, and many believe that he died years ago.

It's not much, but he is a useful example to show the complete misunderstanding that white conservatives and centrists have over the very meaning of the term woke", who used it before it became a sneer term for republicans to scare and rally voters, and so forth.

I think Conservatives usually like belligerent minorities. Because it allows them to point to them and say "look, right here, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not paranoid". Conservatives, by and large, always see ethnic conflicts, no matter if they are there or not. Anything that validates it is embraced, even if they, on paper, are sworn enemies.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I think many on the right see the idea of a monoculture (as long as it's the one they know) as the ideal.



I don't see anyone praising Farrakhan. Are you looking for a written statement from the head of the Left?

I didn't expect praise. What I would expect is for someone, anyone, woke to criticize him like they would and do anyone not in what they identify as the 'good' group who would praise Hitler. You didn't answer why no one has.

Maybe you could be the first to condemn him like you do your strawman version of those you decided are your enemy. Be a trailblazer... but then it may get you canceled, so maybe you shouldn't.

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Google Farrakhan, anti-Semitism for particulars.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/nation-of-islam-farrakhan-in-his-own-words

Farrakhan is an idiot who peddles hate. Rank anti-semitism

 

[DrZoidberg]

Haha! Who's going to cancel me? The mob? Oh No!

but seriously....I don't know alot about Farrakhan but I know he was a polarizing figure. I am a Jew and I know he spoke against Israel. I have myself. Bibi is a dik.

Google Farrakhan, anti-Semitism for particulars.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/nation-of-islam-farrakhan-in-his-own-words

Farrakhan is an idiot who peddles hate. Rank anti-semitism

He's just a run-of-the-mill fascist. The only reason anybody takes him seriously in polite society is because he's black. It's racism of low expectations.

The fact that he's not vocally condemned by the left on par with Trump or Hitler is because the woke left is racist as fuck. They can't deal with black people who refuse being victims and who don't want their sympathy and help.