Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Loren Pechtel]

So what?

What has that to do with the question of whether sex is an important characteristic in some circumstances?

It is possible that by studying other cultures, we might learn and grow and improve how we handle things.

Yes, let’s study backward Islamic cultures to see where we are going wrong with the treatment of women.

That link to the Talmud recognizing seven genders takes you to the My Jewish Learning page, but yeah, let's pretend there are only two cultures in the world - Western Christian and Islamic.

Yup. Half a billion Buddhists do not actually exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does the book include instructions on using cutting and leech to reduce fevers?
Tom

Based on a considerable misunderstanding but there are several medical conditions that are improved by bleeding. And, likewise, there are conditions that are helped by places like Lourdes. Mostly we have better answers now, but bleeding is still the standard (and only) treatment for hemochromatosis and Wilson's disease. Catch them early enough, bleed periodically, normal life expectancy. Don't bleed, you will die early.

 

[ZiprHead]

Does the book include instructions on using cutting and leech to reduce fevers?
Tom

Based on a considerable misunderstanding but there are several medical conditions that are improved by bleeding. And, likewise, there are conditions that are helped by places like Lourdes. Mostly we have better answers now, but bleeding is still the standard (and only) treatment for hemochromatosis and Wilson's disease. Catch them early enough, bleed periodically, normal life expectancy. Don't bleed, you will die early.

I seem to remember leeches are still used to provide localized anti clotting agents after limb replacement.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

Who the fuck is talking about castrating boys???

How the fuck did you get that out of anyone's post, and why the fuck are you linking it to being progressive?

That's an utterly regressive, authoritarian, slave- and chattel-owning mentality that should have finally died in Western culture when the Nazis were defeated but still persists in certain flavors of Christianity and other religions, none of which are represented or endorsed here.

What do think “gender affirming” treatments consist of?

For minors: puberty blockers. Push the decision off.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don’t believe any 25 year old belongs in juvenile detention and rapists of all sorts need to be segregated from their preferred victims.

And yet 26 year old "Hannah" Tubbs was placed in a female juvenile detention center because 1) he was 17 when he raped a 10 year old girl in a public bathroom and 2) he said he identified as a woman when he was arrested. So it does happen, and he *did* unquestionably self-identify as a woman. Does he need and deserve acceptance and support for his gender identity?

And "says he identifies as a woman" says nothing about behavior at the time of the rape. See why I have a problem with the data?

Would you like to at least consider altering your general statement, and perhaps place some boundary conditions on what constitutes transgender in the first place, and thus give some clarity to who exactly needs support and acceptance? And perhaps elaborate on what form that support and acceptance is expected to take?

I have no problem with requirements that are practical to comply with. What we had before was quite burdensome.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the founders of Free Speech TV, Jon Stout , has a video on the channel talking about spending nights on suicide hotlines trying to get help for their despondent son who was experiencing severe mental health issues. The son finally admitted to Jon and his mother he felt he was trans, not feeling compatible as a boy.

Exactly. Not fitting into society is extremely painful. And I think a lot of people don't even realize exactly why they don't fit in.

States are banning such treatment. People will die because of that.

That's the idea. Demonize the outgroups to get power.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are assuming Semenya is mistaken about her gender because the adults around her were mistaken about her sex and raised her wrong.

Also, you are arguing gender is a social construct, not an aspect of self awareness and self identity, so people don't get to tell society what their gender is, society tells them. What I find most interesting about that is the current social trend of recognizing and respecting variations in sex, sexual orientation, gender, gender identities and presentations (including non-binary) is rendering the old system of gender designation obsolete. Some people are having a difficult time adjusting to that.

And so what if that's what happened?

Consider two models:

1) Everyone is either male or female, there is no middle ground.

2) Gender is a spectrum that we bin into two categories.

Scientifically, can we pick either of these models? I do not believe we can at this point.

Thus we need to look at which model provides a better fit for the data. We have some cases where people are adamant that they are a particular gender, even when that goes against their typical behavior patterns. (Prime example, tomboys.) And we have cases like Semenya where it appears nurture defines them. The only way I see to make sense of this is that in some people the nature part is very strong, in others it is not. Note that we definitely do not have the ability to compare intensities as it is inherently self-measure with no possible comparison.

Note, also, that having a range is not something that would have any strong genetic selection against it because people would mostly play the hands they were dealt for survival.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think there is nearly nil risk in actual assault by MtF persons.

Unfortunately, there is significant risk if the individual is not actually trans but is a malevolent individual who falsely asserts they are trans in order to victimize females.

You apparently do not read my posts very well because I have repeatedly said that NO ONE should feel or be unsafe in female only spaces.

Yes, I know, but I'm looking at the bigger problem. Nobody should be unsafe going to the bathroom. Consider the three realistically possible scenarios:

1) MTF in women's, FTM in men's.
2) MTF in men's, FTM in women's.
3) MTF in men's, FTM in men's.

And the failure modes:

1) Males disguised as females slip in. But what's preventing that now?? Nothing--but it's not the normal attack scenario.

2) We've already seen what happens. Violence and arrests directed at the trans. Automatically outs all trans. And males do not need a disguise to enter the women's--congratulations, you just increased the actual threat level.

3) Automatically outs the MTFs. Probably safer for the FTMs than #2.

NO ONE should be further traumatized by being confronted by an unfamiliar apparently male body in a female only locker room. Lots of girls and women ( cis and trans) have been sexually assaulted, usually by people they believe they can trust. This kind of assault creates a long lasting trauma that can make victims hyper vigilant—which means they can go into flee or freeze mode—or fight mode.

As always, you are taking the position that benefits your group, even if it harms society overall.

Again, since you seem not to have noticed before: Trans girls and trans women should NOT be traumatized by frightened cis girls and women who see an apparent male body and react in fear. Which is very likely to happen if unexpected male appearing bodies are in female only space.

In such an instance, both the cis females and the trans females would be traumatized. I don’t want that to happen.

But what's the alternative that doesn't cause a problem? Do not compare it with perfect, compare it with the other realistic options.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does the book include instructions on using cutting and leech to reduce fevers?
Tom

Based on a considerable misunderstanding but there are several medical conditions that are improved by bleeding. And, likewise, there are conditions that are helped by places like Lourdes. Mostly we have better answers now, but bleeding is still the standard (and only) treatment for hemochromatosis and Wilson's disease. Catch them early enough, bleed periodically, normal life expectancy. Don't bleed, you will die early.

I seem to remember leeches are still used to provide localized anti clotting agents after limb replacement.

Wasn't aware of that exact use, I'm aware of them being used to drain blood after limb replacement.

 

[TomC]

Wasn't aware of that exact use, I'm aware of them being used to drain blood after limb replacement.

I was talking about the medieval times and before. Like in the Talmud, which is how this derail came to be.
Back then, fever was believed to be a result of too much blood. Reducing fever by applying leeches was what educated doctors did.
Badly evidenced and just plain wrong. But another poster brought up the Talmud as an authority on gender, I didn't bring it up at all. I don't think that the ancient authors of the Talmud had any better knowledge of gender issues than they did about medical treatments.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I don’t believe any 25 year old belongs in juvenile detention and rapists of all sorts need to be segregated from their preferred victims.

And yet 26 year old "Hannah" Tubbs was placed in a female juvenile detention center because 1) he was 17 when he raped a 10 year old girl in a public bathroom and 2) he said he identified as a woman when he was arrested. So it does happen, and he *did* unquestionably self-identify as a woman. Does he need and deserve acceptance and support for his gender identity?

And "says he identifies as a woman" says nothing about behavior at the time of the rape. See why I have a problem with the data?

No. His prior behavior is irrelevant.

Upon arrest for raping a female , he said he was a woman. He claimed he was transgender. How to distinguish between actual transgender individuals from poseurs a priori is the issue.

 

[laughing dog]

Badly evidenced and just plain wrong. But another poster brought up the Talmud as an authority on gender

Wrong. The Talmud was mentioned as evidence that people have recognized more than 2 genders for a long time.

 

[TomC]

Badly evidenced and just plain wrong. But another poster brought up the Talmud as an authority on gender

Wrong. The Talmud was mentioned as evidence that people have recognized more than 2 genders for a long time.

My point was that people have believed all sorts of things throughout the centuries. And that ancient people often believed idiocy, like relieving fever by blood letting.

Modern people have much more and better information.

Personally, I have no problem with the idea that humans are complex. The weirdest, queerest, person out there is still a human being and deserves basic human rights.

But so do ordinary female women. Dismissing their feelings and rights is dismissing the feelings and rights of half the human race.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Badly evidenced and just plain wrong. But another poster brought up the Talmud as an authority on gender

Wrong. The Talmud was mentioned as evidence that people have recognized more than 2 genders for a long time.

My point was that people have believed all sorts of things throughout the centuries. And that ancient people often believed idiocy, like relieving fever by blood letting.

Modern people have much more and better information.

Since modern people recognize more than 2 genders, your point seems out of place.

Personally, I have no problem with the idea that humans are complex. The weirdest, queerest, person out there is still a human being and deserves basic human rights.

But so do ordinary female women. Dismissing their feelings and rights is dismissing the feelings and rights of half the human race.
Tom

You have no problem “dismissing the feelings and right” of the transgender community. Is it simply a matter of numbers to you?

 

[TomC]

Since modern people recognize more than 2 genders, your point seems out of place.

My point was that ancient people are not authoritative about modern people or morality or even medical science.

You have no problem “dismissing the feelings and right” of the transgender community. Is it simply a matter of numbers to you?

I have never done any such thing.
But I understand that your ideology requires you to believe that anyone who disagrees with you about anything, with nuance, must be wrong.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don’t believe any 25 year old belongs in juvenile detention and rapists of all sorts need to be segregated from their preferred victims.

And yet 26 year old "Hannah" Tubbs was placed in a female juvenile detention center because 1) he was 17 when he raped a 10 year old girl in a public bathroom and 2) he said he identified as a woman when he was arrested. So it does happen, and he *did* unquestionably self-identify as a woman. Does he need and deserve acceptance and support for his gender identity?

And "says he identifies as a woman" says nothing about behavior at the time of the rape. See why I have a problem with the data?

No. His prior behavior is irrelevant.

Upon arrest for raping a female , he said he was a woman. He claimed he was transgender. How to distinguish between actual transgender individuals from poseurs a priori is the issue.

The question isn't what he said. I'm not going to trust the word of a rapist, it means nothing. The question was how was he living at the time of the rape.

 

[laughing dog]

Since modern people recognize more than 2 genders, your point seems out of place.

My point was that ancient people are not authoritative about modern people or morality or even medical science.

No one made that claim.

You have no problem “dismissing the feelings and right” of the transgender community. Is it simply a matter of numbers to you?

I have never done any such thing.

Most of the posters in this thread with whom you disagree haven’t either, but that doesn’t stop you. So using your operational criteria, you do .

But I understand that your ideology requires you to believe that anyone who disagrees with you about anything, with nuance, must be wrong.
Tom

Your underserved confidence in your understanding is matched by the irony of your comment

 

[laughing dog]

I don’t believe any 25 year old belongs in juvenile detention and rapists of all sorts need to be segregated from their preferred victims.

And yet 26 year old "Hannah" Tubbs was placed in a female juvenile detention center because 1) he was 17 when he raped a 10 year old girl in a public bathroom and 2) he said he identified as a woman when he was arrested. So it does happen, and he *did* unquestionably self-identify as a woman. Does he need and deserve acceptance and support for his gender identity?

And "says he identifies as a woman" says nothing about behavior at the time of the rape. See why I have a problem with the data?

No. His prior behavior is irrelevant.

Upon arrest for raping a female , he said he was a woman. He claimed he was transgender. How to distinguish between actual transgender individuals from poseurs a priori is the issue.

The question isn't what he said. I'm not going to trust the word of a rapist, it means nothing. The question was how was he living at the time of the rape.

Of course that is the issue after the fact. But the issue arises before the fact. The rapist used the ruse to gain access to- that is what Emily and Toni are pointing out.

 

[TomC]

No one made that claim.

I'm confident that the Talmud and the Zuni were in fact brought up in this thread.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

As for it being mumbo jumbo, I provided a definition. I said it was portmanteau of "person" and "ethos" to indicate the beliefs, values, character, and identity of a person as it relates to their perception of self within and in relation to their society and its customs. What part of that don't you understand?

Is it that people have beliefs? That those beliefs can be held by an individual or they can be shared with others? That people have values? Is it character and identity you think is mumbo jumbo? Or that having a sense of self is nearly universal among humans, and the perception of self includes how one relates to others? Is it the very idea of personhood that people are struggling with?

What part of that is mumbo jumbo?

Or are you using "exotic mumbo jumbo" as code for "I don't agree with you but I can't articulate my reasons so I'll just handwave away your point in a mocking, dismissive manner", which is what TSwizzle appeared to be doing when he brought that phrase into this discussion.

This just woo nonsense on stilts.