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Liberals for Rand Paul?

boneyard bill

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The breakdown of the Iraqi army has re-ignited the debate about the Iraq War, and it seems to have ignited liberals in particular, and their new hero in this debate appears to be Rand Paul. Granted the praise stops short of an all-out endorsement (although with Van Jones it's pretty close), and Paul is mostly just supporting Obama's actions so far, but he is definitely disagreeing with Dick Cheney and that is the Republican that liberals love most to hate.

Meanwhile, Hillary has had little to say about Iraq, but her past history has been very hawkish. What will these liberals do when they are presented with the choice of Hillary or Paul? Will they take the risk of supporting someone who has been strongly interventionist in the past or will they opt for a more conservative domestic policy to feel more safe about our foreign affairs?

Here are a few short clips:

Chris Matthews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaKbWJ5rFXM

Van Jones
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/crossfires-van-jones-is-loving-this-rand-paul-guy-right-now/

Cenk Uygur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIU7b-wkeWY
 
I think it's safe to say that nobody needs to worry about people voting for Paul.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?
 
Rand is much more mainstream and much less radical than his father, and has done a good job alienating parts of his father's base. Still, he is considered by the uninformed to be the epitome of a libertarian politician.

Still, on this issue, instead of complaining that Rand Paul is being mentioned, perhaps an analysis of the issue is in order. I'll start by quoting Charles Davis. His analysis of Ron Paul vs. Barack Obama fits the question of Rand Paul vs. Hillary Clinton.

I'll take the reactionary over the murderer, thanks

Ron Paul is far from perfect, but I'll say this much for the Texas congressman: He has never authorized a drone strike in Pakistan. He has never authorized the killing of dozens of women and children in Yemen. He hasn't protected torturers from prosecution and he hasn't overseen the torturous treatment of a 23-year-old young man for the “crime” of revealing the government's criminal behavior.

Can the same be said for Barack Obama?

Yet, ask a good movement liberal or progressive about the two and you'll quickly be informed that yeah, Ron Paul's good on the war stuff -- yawn -- but otherwise he's a no-good right-wing reactionary of the worst order, a guy who'd kick your Aunt Beth off Medicare and force her to turn tricks for blood-pressure meds. By contrast, Obama, war crimes and all, provokes no such visceral distaste. He's more cosmopolitan, after all; less Texas-y. He's a Democrat. And gosh, even if he's made a few mistakes, he means well.

Sure he's a murderer, in other words, but at least he's not a Republican!

Put another, even less charitable way: Democratic partisans – liberals – are willing to trade the lives of a couple thousand poor Pakistani tribesman in exchange for a few liberal catnip-filled speeches and NPR tote bags for the underprivileged. The number of party-line progressives who would vote for Ron Paul over Barack Obama wouldn't be enough to fill Conference Room B at the local Sheraton, with even harshest left-leaning critics of the president, like Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi, saying they'd prefer the mass-murdering sociopath to that kooky Constitution fetishist.

...

Let's just assume the worst about Paul: that he's a corporate libertarian in the Reason magazine/Cato Institute mold that would grant Big Business and the financial industry license to do whatever the hell it wants with little in the way of accountability (I call this scenario the “status quo”). Let's say he dines on Labradoodle puppies while using their blood to scribble notes in the margins of his dog-eared, gold-encrusted copy of Atlas Shrugged.

So. Fucking. What.

Barack Obama isn't exactly Eugene Debs, after all. Hell, he's not even Jimmy Carter. The facts are: he's pushed for the largest military budget in world history, given trillions of dollars to Wall Street in bailouts and near-zero interest loans from the Federal Reserve, protected oil companies like BP from legal liability for environmental damages they cause – from poisoning the Gulf to climate change – and mandated that all Americans purchase the U.S. health insurance industry's product. You might argue Paul's a corporatist, but there's no denying Obama's one.

And at least Paul would – and this is important, I think – stop killing poor foreigners with cluster bombs and Predator drones. Unlike the Nobel Peace Prize winner-in-chief, Paul would also bring the troops home from not just Afghanistan and Iraq, but Europe, Korea and Okinawa. There'd be no need for a School of the Americas because the U.S. wouldn't be busy training foreign military personnel the finer points of human rights abuses. Israel would have to carry out its war crimes on its own dime.

Even on on the most pressing domestic issues of the day, Paul strikes me as a hell of a lot more progressive than Obama. Look at the war on drugs: Obama has continued the same failed prohibitionist policies as his predecessors, maintaining a status quo that has placed 2.3 million – or one in 100 – Americans behind bars, the vast majority African-American and Hispanic. Paul, on the other hand, has called for ending the drug war and said he would pardon non-violent offenders, which would be the single greatest reform a president could make in the domestic sphere, equivalent in magnitude to ending Jim Crow.

...

All that aside, though, it seems to me that if you're going to style yourself a progressive, liberal humanitarian, your first priority really ought to be stopping your government from killing poor people. Second on that list? Stopping your government from putting hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in cages for decades at a time over non-violent “crimes” committed by consenting adults. Seriously: what the fuck? Social Security's great and all I guess, but not exploding little children with cluster bombs – shouldn't that be at the top of the Liberal Agenda?

Unfortunately, the last several years have shown us, and the current cheering for the Hildebeest is showing us, killing poor people isn't a problem when Democrats do it. Progressive peace movement, RIP, January 20, 2009.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.

Phantom Menace, dude. Don't forget who told you first.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.

Phantom Menace, dude. Don't forget who told you first.

It's easy to make a prediction like that long after the prediction has come true.

Guess what, I predict that in 2008 Barack Obama will defeat Hillary Clinton in the primary and John McCain in the general election.

Oh wow, my prediction came true. I must be a genius.
 
Rand is much more mainstream and much less radical than his father, and has done a good job alienating parts of his father's base. Still, he is considered by the uninformed to be the epitome of a libertarian politician.

Still, on this issue, instead of complaining that Rand Paul is being mentioned, perhaps an analysis of the issue is in order. I'll start by quoting Charles Davis. His analysis of Ron Paul vs. Barack Obama fits the question of Rand Paul vs. Hillary Clinton.

I'll take the reactionary over the murderer, thanks

Ron Paul is far from perfect, but I'll say this much for the Texas congressman: He has never authorized a drone strike in Pakistan. He has never authorized the killing of dozens of women and children in Yemen. He hasn't protected torturers from prosecution and he hasn't overseen the torturous treatment of a 23-year-old young man for the “crime” of revealing the government's criminal behavior.

Can the same be said for Barack Obama?

Yet, ask a good movement liberal or progressive about the two and you'll quickly be informed that yeah, Ron Paul's good on the war stuff -- yawn -- but otherwise he's a no-good right-wing reactionary of the worst order, a guy who'd kick your Aunt Beth off Medicare and force her to turn tricks for blood-pressure meds. By contrast, Obama, war crimes and all, provokes no such visceral distaste. He's more cosmopolitan, after all; less Texas-y. He's a Democrat. And gosh, even if he's made a few mistakes, he means well.

Sure he's a murderer, in other words, but at least he's not a Republican!

Put another, even less charitable way: Democratic partisans – liberals – are willing to trade the lives of a couple thousand poor Pakistani tribesman in exchange for a few liberal catnip-filled speeches and NPR tote bags for the underprivileged. The number of party-line progressives who would vote for Ron Paul over Barack Obama wouldn't be enough to fill Conference Room B at the local Sheraton, with even harshest left-leaning critics of the president, like Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi, saying they'd prefer the mass-murdering sociopath to that kooky Constitution fetishist.

...

Let's just assume the worst about Paul: that he's a corporate libertarian in the Reason magazine/Cato Institute mold that would grant Big Business and the financial industry license to do whatever the hell it wants with little in the way of accountability (I call this scenario the “status quo”). Let's say he dines on Labradoodle puppies while using their blood to scribble notes in the margins of his dog-eared, gold-encrusted copy of Atlas Shrugged.

So. Fucking. What.

Barack Obama isn't exactly Eugene Debs, after all. Hell, he's not even Jimmy Carter. The facts are: he's pushed for the largest military budget in world history, given trillions of dollars to Wall Street in bailouts and near-zero interest loans from the Federal Reserve, protected oil companies like BP from legal liability for environmental damages they cause – from poisoning the Gulf to climate change – and mandated that all Americans purchase the U.S. health insurance industry's product. You might argue Paul's a corporatist, but there's no denying Obama's one.

And at least Paul would – and this is important, I think – stop killing poor foreigners with cluster bombs and Predator drones. Unlike the Nobel Peace Prize winner-in-chief, Paul would also bring the troops home from not just Afghanistan and Iraq, but Europe, Korea and Okinawa. There'd be no need for a School of the Americas because the U.S. wouldn't be busy training foreign military personnel the finer points of human rights abuses. Israel would have to carry out its war crimes on its own dime.

Even on on the most pressing domestic issues of the day, Paul strikes me as a hell of a lot more progressive than Obama. Look at the war on drugs: Obama has continued the same failed prohibitionist policies as his predecessors, maintaining a status quo that has placed 2.3 million – or one in 100 – Americans behind bars, the vast majority African-American and Hispanic. Paul, on the other hand, has called for ending the drug war and said he would pardon non-violent offenders, which would be the single greatest reform a president could make in the domestic sphere, equivalent in magnitude to ending Jim Crow.

...

All that aside, though, it seems to me that if you're going to style yourself a progressive, liberal humanitarian, your first priority really ought to be stopping your government from killing poor people. Second on that list? Stopping your government from putting hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in cages for decades at a time over non-violent “crimes” committed by consenting adults. Seriously: what the fuck? Social Security's great and all I guess, but not exploding little children with cluster bombs – shouldn't that be at the top of the Liberal Agenda?

Unfortunately, the last several years have shown us, and the current cheering for the Hildebeest is showing us, killing poor people isn't a problem when Democrats do it. Progressive peace movement, RIP, January 20, 2009.

That's really the hardest part. It's easy enough to convince liberals that Obama the warmonger is not liberal on foreign policy, but what they can't figure out is that he is a complete corporate tool on domestic policy as well. So what is so liberal about Obama? Oh yeah, he came up with health care plan that is devastating to ordinary Americans but will really boost the health insurance industry and Big Pharma.

"He gave us health care!" Everyone bow down now.
 
It's easy to make a prediction like that long after the prediction has come true.

How else do you expect people to make predictions? You could end up being wrong if you did it another way.

Guess what, I predict that in 2008 Barack Obama will defeat Hillary Clinton in the primary and John McCain in the general election.

You're on record now, dude. I'm holding you to that one. Expect to eat a bit of crow, my friend.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?
Consider yourself lucky if it is only 3 years. Rand is a young whippersnapper compared to his pappy.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.
You make a good point. They called Clinton and Guiliani pretty accurately in '08.
 
The breakdown of the Iraqi army has re-ignited the debate about the Iraq War, and it seems to have ignited liberals in particular, and their new hero in this debate appears to be Rand Paul. Granted the praise stops short of an all-out endorsement (although with Van Jones it's pretty close), and Paul is mostly just supporting Obama's actions so far, but he is definitely disagreeing with Dick Cheney and that is the Republican that liberals love most to hate.

Meanwhile, Hillary has had little to say about Iraq, but her past history has been very hawkish. What will these liberals do when they are presented with the choice of Hillary or Paul? Will they take the risk of supporting someone who has been strongly interventionist in the past or will they opt for a more conservative domestic policy to feel more safe about our foreign affairs?

Here are a few short clips:

Chris Matthews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaKbWJ5rFXM

Van Jones
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/crossfires-van-jones-is-loving-this-rand-paul-guy-right-now/

Cenk Uygur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIU7b-wkeWY
May I laugh for a while Bill? On the count of his remarks regarding the Civil Rights Act, it is highly improbable that he will get Black votes. On the count of his stances on immigration reform, it is highly improbable he will get Hispanic votes.

http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=12

Do you foresee a presidential candidate being elected without the support of Black and Hispanic votes?

Oh dear, I almost forgot women's vote. Are you aware that Paul introduced the "Life at Conception Act" in March of 2013?

http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf

which would result in criminalizing abortion.

Aware he voted against the Paycheck Fairness Act and further the silliness of equating the Act to the Soviet Politburo policing the pricing of bread?:laughing-smiley-014.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-fairness-act-soviet-politburo_n_1571789.html

I mean...really!
So what type of "liberals" would have to suffer of amnesia to dismiss all the above?
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.
You make a good point. They called Clinton and Guiliani pretty accurately in '08.

The fact remains that Rand Paul is leading in some polls and is in the top three in virtually all of them. He also runs best of all Republicans against Hillary.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.
You make a good point. They called Clinton and Guiliani pretty accurately in '08.
The fact remains that Rand Paul is leading in some polls and is in the top three in virtually all of them. He also runs best of all Republicans against Hillary.
The year is 2014. Almost all predictions at this point can be handwaved away as being worthless. Any predictions on the news is just trying to create content for broadcast.
 
Oh for god damn mother fucking sakes. We had to endure years of this with Ron Paul and nothing happened, not even a coronation, now we'll have to suffer with a three year encore dedicated to Rand Paul?

Probably until Rand's son becomes eligible. But the likes of Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur never predicted that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but they are predicting that Rand Paul will be the Republican nominee. Now, I agree that neither of these guys is Nostradamus, but they are both very well-informed politically and if they're willing to go out on limb this early, the idea that a Rand candidacy is DOA must be regarded a by far the more rash prediction.
You make a good point. They called Clinton and Guiliani pretty accurately in '08.
The fact remains that Rand Paul is leading in some polls and is in the top three in virtually all of them. He also runs best of all Republicans against Hillary.
The year is 2014. Almost all predictions at this point can be handwaved away as being worthless. Any predictions on the news is just trying to create content for broadcast.

Rand is certainly running way ahead of where his father was at this point in the campaign. Yet his father almost won Iowa and would have come close in New Hampshire if Jon Huntsman hadn't spend a small fortune to finish third.

Paulistas are very well organized and ready to go in three of the first four contests, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada. South Carolina may be a little tougher but the early campaign schedule also works in Rand's favor.

Meanwhile, I don't think Chris Matthews and Cenk Uygur are willing to risk their reputations as political commentators on what they regard as a wild guess.

Are predictions this early somewhat speculative? Yes. After all, no one, including Rand Paul, has even announced their candidacy yet. But Matthews and Uygur are looking at how Rand Paul is proceeding strategically, and it is from this that they conclude that he will win. At least, that's what they say.

Some people go to the track and look at the odds or the horses times or number of wins and then place their bets. Others look at the horses. Matthews and Yugur are looking at the horses. Matthews has also predicted that Rand will lose to Hillary so I'm hoping he's not too good.

- - - Updated - - -


Gee. That's the same reaction I got on these boards when I predicted that Rand would win the Senate seat in Kentucky.
 
The problem with your analysis, Bill, is that Rand has done a great deal to alienate a good segment of his dad's support.

He supports federal enforcement of federal marijuana laws over state legalization of marijuana. He endorsed Mitch McConnell over Mitch's primary opponent. He went out of state to endorse a mainstream Republican over a libertarian Democrat. He publicly denied being a libertarian, going so far as to accuse his opponents of trying to hang the "albatross of libertarianism" on him.

Sure, he's better than other Republicans. But that's a low bar. Actually it's so low a bar that one can simply step over it without altering ones gait. And sure he's better than Hillary, but she's ideologically indistinguishable from Dick Cheney, and looks just as awful in a dress. But don't count on him getting the same support his dad got.

The best plan for him is to combine what part of his dad's support he hasn't alienated with the more mainstream support he appears to be trying to curry favor with. That might be a winning combination, but Rand Paul is not Ron Paul.
 
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