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Looks like the mysterious protective effect of alcohol is poor research

https://theconversation.com/maybe-moderate-drinking-isnt-so-good-for-you-after-all-72266

Looks like it's wealth, combined with some non-drinkers that don't drink because of poor health caused by alcohol.

It's not true. We've known since the 19'th century that drinking alcohol was mostly bad for us. Now and again there pops up a study that shows that there is some aspect of drinking alcohol that is positive. But that positive aspect in no way displaces the negative aspects. The sum total of badness has always been greater than the goodness.

The problem has only been that the public likes remembering the positive aspects and only focusing them. But modern medical science has never had any illusions about alcohol.
 
https://theconversation.com/maybe-moderate-drinking-isnt-so-good-for-you-after-all-72266

Looks like it's wealth, combined with some non-drinkers that don't drink because of poor health caused by alcohol.

It's not true. We've known since the 19'th century that drinking alcohol was mostly bad for us. Now and again there pops up a study that shows that there is some aspect of drinking alcohol that is positive. But that positive aspect in no way displaces the negative aspects. The sum total of badness has always been greater than the goodness.

The problem has only been that the public likes remembering the positive aspects and only focusing them. But modern medical science has never had any illusions about alcohol.
You don't understand, there is no good aspect in drinking - none, previous studies were complete and utter bullshit.
 
Meh, this study may be the "poor research".

Both their "drinking" and "health" variables are poorly measured. Rather than just measure number of drinks per day, they grouped people into just a couple of categories based on ranges. That reduces the strength of the relationships the measure would have with other variables like health. Also, they didn't measure actual health but rather self-reported health. That will mean tons of measurement error that makes the observed correlation between health and drinking even more of an under-estimate.

Also, adding SES to an analysis does not automatically make the results more rigorous or a better test of causality. SES doesn't actually cause hardly anything except maybe what tax bracket one is in. SES is related to all kinds of variables that are the real causes, but often SES is measured more precisely so that it pulls out the shared variance with the real causes, leaving nothing left for those variables to account for, even when they are the actual causal factors. For example, you could through SES into a analyses of the relationship between smoking tobacco and lung cancer, and the smoking-cancer relationship might "disappear". Controlling for SES can never tell us that the other factors are not causally important, it can only tell us whether or not alternative explanations tied to SES can be ruled out. It seems unlikely that some of the other studies would not have also controlled for SES, so its likely that the only thing this study says is that the relationship between drinking and health as they specifically measured them overlaps almost entirely with SES.
 
https://theconversation.com/maybe-moderate-drinking-isnt-so-good-for-you-after-all-72266

Looks like it's wealth, combined with some non-drinkers that don't drink because of poor health caused by alcohol.

It's not true. We've known since the 19'th century that drinking alcohol was mostly bad for us. Now and again there pops up a study that shows that there is some aspect of drinking alcohol that is positive. But that positive aspect in no way displaces the negative aspects. The sum total of badness has always been greater than the goodness.

The problem has only been that the public likes remembering the positive aspects and only focusing them. But modern medical science has never had any illusions about alcohol.

I was talking about the various studies that show light drinking being better than none. There's no question heavy drinking is bad.
 
It's not true. We've known since the 19'th century that drinking alcohol was mostly bad for us. Now and again there pops up a study that shows that there is some aspect of drinking alcohol that is positive. But that positive aspect in no way displaces the negative aspects. The sum total of badness has always been greater than the goodness.

The problem has only been that the public likes remembering the positive aspects and only focusing them. But modern medical science has never had any illusions about alcohol.

I was talking about the various studies that show light drinking being better than none. There's no question heavy drinking is bad.

As was I. Even when they were published medical science knew that the minor positive effects were cancelled out by the much greater negative effects. Reports of any great positive effect was the result of overly enthusiastic science journalists. A field of journalism which can be counted on to twist critical information and take quotes out of context.
 
I was talking about the various studies that show light drinking being better than none. There's no question heavy drinking is bad.

As was I. Even when they were published medical science knew that the minor positive effects were cancelled out by the much greater negative effects. Reports of any great positive effect was the result of overly enthusiastic science journalists. A field of journalism which can be counted on to twist critical information and take quotes out of context.

That isn't true. There is minimal evidence of major negative effects of moderate alcohol use.

And the OP study does little to undermine the evidence of the positive effects. That is partly due to the reasons I already described, plus there are many dozens of studies are not merely correlational, but randomized double-blind experiments showing the modest daily doses of alcohol can have significant casual impact on positive biological markers related to heart disease.

Here is a meta-analysis of about 75 randomized experiments whose results are not at all undermined by the rather weak correlational design of the OP study.
 
Meh, this study may be the "poor research".

Both their "drinking" and "health" variables are poorly measured. Rather than just measure number of drinks per day, they grouped people into just a couple of categories based on ranges. That reduces the strength of the relationships the measure would have with other variables like health. Also, they didn't measure actual health but rather self-reported health. That will mean tons of measurement error that makes the observed correlation between health and drinking even more of an under-estimate.

Also, adding SES to an analysis does not automatically make the results more rigorous or a better test of causality. SES doesn't actually cause hardly anything except maybe what tax bracket one is in. SES is related to all kinds of variables that are the real causes, but often SES is measured more precisely so that it pulls out the shared variance with the real causes, leaving nothing left for those variables to account for, even when they are the actual causal factors. For example, you could through SES into a analyses of the relationship between smoking tobacco and lung cancer, and the smoking-cancer relationship might "disappear". Controlling for SES can never tell us that the other factors are not causally important, it can only tell us whether or not alternative explanations tied to SES can be ruled out. It seems unlikely that some of the other studies would not have also controlled for SES, so its likely that the only thing this study says is that the relationship between drinking and health as they specifically measured them overlaps almost entirely with SES.

Yeah. From what I understand when most studies say we "control for variable X" they mean "we added X to a regression model, and in the new model, the coefficient for variable Z increased/decreased, and the estimate was no longer statistically significant." Or something like that, which if fraught with pitfalls.
 
Meh, this study may be the "poor research".

Both their "drinking" and "health" variables are poorly measured. Rather than just measure number of drinks per day, they grouped people into just a couple of categories based on ranges. That reduces the strength of the relationships the measure would have with other variables like health. Also, they didn't measure actual health but rather self-reported health. That will mean tons of measurement error that makes the observed correlation between health and drinking even more of an under-estimate.

Also, adding SES to an analysis does not automatically make the results more rigorous or a better test of causality. SES doesn't actually cause hardly anything except maybe what tax bracket one is in. SES is related to all kinds of variables that are the real causes, but often SES is measured more precisely so that it pulls out the shared variance with the real causes, leaving nothing left for those variables to account for, even when they are the actual causal factors. For example, you could through SES into a analyses of the relationship between smoking tobacco and lung cancer, and the smoking-cancer relationship might "disappear". Controlling for SES can never tell us that the other factors are not causally important, it can only tell us whether or not alternative explanations tied to SES can be ruled out. It seems unlikely that some of the other studies would not have also controlled for SES, so its likely that the only thing this study says is that the relationship between drinking and health as they specifically measured them overlaps almost entirely with SES.

Yeah. From what I understand when most studies say we "control for variable X" they mean "we added X to a regression model, and in the new model, the coefficient for variable Z increased/decreased, and the estimate was no longer statistically significant." Or something like that, which if fraught with pitfalls.
There are always pitfalls. If the original study did not include relevant variables from the model, then certainly the results are suspect.

Peez
 
Meh, this study may be the "poor research".

Both their "drinking" and "health" variables are poorly measured.

They did orders of magnitude better than original studies where they put quitters with never-drinkers together. The point is, some of the previous studies were utter crap. some were just crap, and he rest had very low confidence in their conclusions.
 
Meh, this study may be the "poor research".

Both their "drinking" and "health" variables are poorly measured. Rather than just measure number of drinks per day, they grouped people into just a couple of categories based on ranges. That reduces the strength of the relationships the measure would have with other variables like health. Also, they didn't measure actual health but rather self-reported health. That will mean tons of measurement error that makes the observed correlation between health and drinking even more of an under-estimate.

The more categories the fewer people per category. If your research budget isn't infinite sometimes you are better off with broader categories.

Likewise, a detailed health exam would be better--but that's expensive and you'll pretty much have to pay people given the time involved. Lacking an infinite research budget a self-reported health status might very well be the best answer.

Also, adding SES to an analysis does not automatically make the results more rigorous or a better test of causality. SES doesn't actually cause hardly anything except maybe what tax bracket one is in. SES is related to all kinds of variables that are the real causes, but often SES is measured more precisely so that it pulls out the shared variance with the real causes, leaving nothing left for those variables to account for, even when they are the actual causal factors. For example, you could through SES into a analyses of the relationship between smoking tobacco and lung cancer, and the smoking-cancer relationship might "disappear". Controlling for SES can never tell us that the other factors are not causally important, it can only tell us whether or not alternative explanations tied to SES can be ruled out. It seems unlikely that some of the other studies would not have also controlled for SES, so its likely that the only thing this study says is that the relationship between drinking and health as they specifically measured them overlaps almost entirely with SES.

True, SES is a proxy for many things but that doesn't mean it has no value. In this case they realized SES was both a proxy for alcohol consumption and healthcare spending.
 
I thought the benefits of drinking certain forms alcoholic beverages comes not from the alcohol itself but additional elements:

''Lowers Risk Of Heart Disease and Stroke: Red wine tannins, which are what make red wine the color red, contain procyanidins — known for protecting against heart disease. Resveratrol also helps to remove chemicals responsible for causing blood clots, which is the primary cause of coronary disease.''

Presumably, taken in moderation, these beneficial elements outweigh the potential harm caused by the alcohol content.
 
As was I. Even when they were published medical science knew that the minor positive effects were cancelled out by the much greater negative effects. Reports of any great positive effect was the result of overly enthusiastic science journalists. A field of journalism which can be counted on to twist critical information and take quotes out of context.

That isn't true. There is minimal evidence of major negative effects of moderate alcohol use.

And the OP study does little to undermine the evidence of the positive effects. That is partly due to the reasons I already described, plus there are many dozens of studies are not merely correlational, but randomized double-blind experiments showing the modest daily doses of alcohol can have significant casual impact on positive biological markers related to heart disease.

Here is a meta-analysis of about 75 randomized experiments whose results are not at all undermined by the rather weak correlational design of the OP study.

Ehe... the calory content alone should be enough to prove negative effects. Even if it's hard to draw strong conclusions about human physiology, (because it's somehow unethical to force feed humans stuff and then disect them to see what happens) we can still draw reasonable conclusions.
 
The article mentioned nothing about diet, the most important component of any study focusing on health and longevity. This appears to me to be another junk study that had to spend the money somehow.
 
The more categories the fewer people per category. If your research budget isn't infinite sometimes you are better off with broader categories.

I see the intuition about number of observations you are applying here, but its misguided.
It is never better to increase the error in your measurement, which is exactly what happens whenever you use a less precise measure that takes a naturally occurring ratio variable and measures it using non-continuous, non-interval, scale that only has ordered categories.
It means that people who objectively differ on the variable are being given an identical score. Increasing the number of people who have a given score by giving people false scores (essentially what they did) does nothing positive and only makes it harder to detect real relationships with other variables.


Likewise, a detailed health exam would be better--but that's expensive and you'll pretty much have to pay people given the time involved. Lacking an infinite research budget a self-reported health status might very well be the best answer.

I am not saying their methods weren't limited by practical considerations and they just made a dumb choice. I am saying that many of the prior studies they are discounting had objective and superior measures of the very specific types of health effects. The fact they measured both alcohol use and health poorly, in ways that fail to capture much of their real variance, guarantees that they would under-estimate whatever the true relationship between is. So, that relationship "disappearing" when SES is controlled isn't surprising, regardless of whether their is a real causal relationship there.

Also, adding SES to an analysis does not automatically make the results more rigorous or a better test of causality. SES doesn't actually cause hardly anything except maybe what tax bracket one is in. SES is related to all kinds of variables that are the real causes, but often SES is measured more precisely so that it pulls out the shared variance with the real causes, leaving nothing left for those variables to account for, even when they are the actual causal factors. For example, you could through SES into a analyses of the relationship between smoking tobacco and lung cancer, and the smoking-cancer relationship might "disappear". Controlling for SES can never tell us that the other factors are not causally important, it can only tell us whether or not alternative explanations tied to SES can be ruled out. It seems unlikely that some of the other studies would not have also controlled for SES, so its likely that the only thing this study says is that the relationship between drinking and health as they specifically measured them overlaps almost entirely with SES.

True, SES is a proxy for many things but that doesn't mean it has no value. In this case they realized SES was both a proxy for alcohol consumption and healthcare spending.
,
Yeah, SES has an effect on things that have an effect of alcohol consumption, and it effects countless other things that impact health from healthcare spending to daily stress to exposure to environmental toxins, etc.., That means that alcohol consumption could still have a real causal impact on health and a more proximal relationship to health than SES, and yet controlling for SES could account for all the predictive variance of alcohol because SES has many more indirect pathways to health and because SES is measured with more precision (actual dollars rather than just categorizing people as "poor", "middle class", or "rich" like they did with their alcohol measure).
That is why their result cannot be used as evidence that alcohol doesn't actually have a casual impact. Rather the valid interpretation of their result is only that given the way they measured their variables, SES overlapped with all the measured covariance between alcohol and health for men and most of that covariance for women.

And again, there are dozens of controlled lab experiments that show causal impact of alcohol (not just correlations) on health-related markers known impact susceptibility to heart disease and stroke.
 
I thought the benefits of drinking certain forms alcoholic beverages comes not from the alcohol itself but additional elements:

''Lowers Risk Of Heart Disease and Stroke: Red wine tannins, which are what make red wine the color red, contain procyanidins — known for protecting against heart disease. Resveratrol also helps to remove chemicals responsible for causing blood clots, which is the primary cause of coronary disease.''

Presumably, taken in moderation, these beneficial elements outweigh the potential harm caused by the alcohol content.

That had been my casual impression too, but the meta-analysis I previously linked shows positive benefits even of the alcohol itself (whether consumed as beer, wine, or even when pure ethanol is administered in controlled doses). And contrary to the OP articles claim, the biological mechanisms don't seem to be that mysterious. They show strong evidence for the specific mechanisms including the increase of Apolipoprotein A1 in the blood and the High-density lipoproteins they create, which is the "good" cholosterol that binds to fats in other cells (such as in the walls of the arteries) and transports them to the liver for excretion.

They also show that moderate alcohol does slightly increase triglycerides, which by itself is negative, but that effect is smaller than the positive effects on other factors that lead to heart disease.
 
Considering alcohol consuming is time wasting at best it is difficult for me to find anything beneficial in it.

Second this. Alcohol strikes me as a negative, not a positive. I don't drink, period. Some years my wife will have a drink or two.
 
If the negative effect of alcohol is poor research, then I suggest not drinking alcohol until you finish your research work for the day.

As for wasting time, people have LOTS of ways of doing that. Time just isn't as valuable as you guys seem to imagine - I don't know anyone who spends all of their waking life engaged in productive endeavours, and I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to - it would be enough to drive me to drink.

Americans certainly seem to have some VERY strange attitudes towards alcohol - I am not sure if this is partly a hangover (in more than one sense) from Prohibition; Or whether Prohibition is just one of the symptoms of this strange relationship with drink.

You guys need to be more like the Germans or the Australians - you won't find many people in either nation who think that drinking beer is 'time wasting'.
 
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