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[Merged] So much for states rights/Pot-2 steps forward ten steps back

As has been patiently explained time and time again in all the threads about the US Civil War, the only States' Right that the right wing has ever been interested in is the right to own slaves.

Except for the Fugitive Slave Act part.
Good point. The Southern states were citing state sovereignty in their right to own slaves, but were happy to cite the federal sovereignty of the Fugitive Slave Act when it suited their agenda.
 
As has been patiently explained time and time again in all the threads about the US Civil War, the only States' Right that the right wing has ever been interested in is the right to own slaves.
Good to know "the right wing" means "antebellum southern Democrats" and there's no longer any right wing around to lurk under the left wing's beds.

Except for the Fugitive Slave Act part.
Good point. The Southern states were citing state sovereignty in their right to own slaves, but were happy to cite the federal sovereignty of the Fugitive Slave Act when it suited their agenda.
The Southern states were of course just as guilty of hypocrisy as TJ and every other slaver who ever claimed to be in favor of liberty; but this isn't an example of it. "States' Rights" was never supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, full stop". It was supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, except when the power in question was relinquished to the Feds by the States." In this case, it was relinquished. Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 reads "No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due." Until the 13th Amendment overruled that clause, Northern states had no legal right to protect escaped slaves.
 
Good to know "the right wing" means "antebellum southern Democrats" and there's no longer any right wing around to lurk under the left wing's beds.
Odd how it isn't the Democrats who are the ones defending the statues celebrating the rebellion "war heroes". It is almost as if you tried to go with a political zinger, knowing full well how full of shit the comment was.

Good point. The Southern states were citing state sovereignty in their right to own slaves, but were happy to cite the federal sovereignty of the Fugitive Slave Act when it suited their agenda.
The Southern states were of course just as guilty of hypocrisy as TJ...
You are referring to the author of the Declaration of Independence by their initials? Gosh, how far the partisan conservative has fallen. Also, Thomas Jefferson didn't wage a rebellion against the US after losing the election in 1796.

"States' Rights" was never supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, full stop". It was supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, except when the power in question was relinquished to the Feds by the States."
"State's Rights" mean nothing more than 'We can't pass federal legislation for this, so we will try at the state level instead.'
In this case, it was relinquished. Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 reads "No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due." Until the 13th Amendment overruled that clause, Northern states had no legal right to protect escaped slaves.
Of course, the North didn't pass laws discharging the services. This is the early/mid 1800s. How would you even be able to know that one was an escaped slave? And why should Northern states have to be involved with costs of apprehending and shipping slaves back? Didn't want to lose slaves, don't let them run away.
 
Pot-two steps forward ten steps backwards

Here we go again. Justice dept threatens action over state legalization.

In COTUS rights not detailed for fed govt are with the states.

Ok conservatives, as you say let's stop interpreting COTUS and go by the intent of the founders.
 
Odd how it isn't the Democrats who are the ones defending the statues celebrating the rebellion "war heroes". It is almost as if you tried to go with a political zinger, knowing full well how full of...
Oh for the love of god. I was sarcastically ridiculing TS's statement, which surely even you can recognize was a prime example of what you labeled my rejoinder. The right wing has been interested in a lot of "States' Rights" over the last 150 years, and that's painfully obvious.

The Southern states were of course just as guilty of hypocrisy as TJ...
You are referring to the author of the Declaration of Independence by their initials? Gosh, how far the partisan conservative has fallen. Also, Thomas Jefferson didn't wage a rebellion against the US after losing the election in 1796.
I'm sorry, was I insufficiently respectful toward Mr. T. Unalienable-Right-To-Liberty-I'm-Keeping-My-Slaves J. for your taste, JH? What have you got against initials anyway? And what planet are you from if you imagine I'm a partisan conservative? Or is that just your go-to label for everybody you encounter who doesn't think like you?

Incidentally, TJ was a big fan of "States' Rights". He wrote the Kentucky Resolution, which declared a state has the right to find federal laws unconstitutional and declare them "unauthoritative, void, and of no force".

"States' Rights" was never supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, full stop". It was supposed to mean "States win and Feds lose, except when the power in question was relinquished to the Feds by the States."
"State's Rights" mean nothing more than 'We can't pass federal legislation for this, so we will try at the state level instead.'
It was a garbage concept from the get-go. The Constitution reserves powers to the states, rights to the people. As far as I can see from the plain text, the only constitutional right a state has is the right to a jury trial in suits at common law where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars.

In this case, it was relinquished. Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 reads "No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due." Until the 13th Amendment overruled that clause, Northern states had no legal right to protect escaped slaves.
Of course, the North didn't pass laws discharging the services. This is the early/mid 1800s.
Actually, some northern states did.

How would you even be able to know that one was an escaped slave? And why should Northern states have to be involved with costs of apprehending and shipping slaves back? Didn't want to lose slaves, don't let them run away.
Right you are.
 
As has been patiently explained time and time again in all the threads about the US Civil War, the only States' Right that the right wing has ever been interested in is the right to own slaves.

And the right to restrict abortion access.
.

Not exactly. They really want to restrict abortion access at the Fed level and impose this on all states. The consistency in the GOP is it's support for violating people's civil and human rights. If they think they can get away with Fed laws that do this, then they go that route. Only if they know that such a Fed law would be so clearly against Constitutional principles do they whine about State's rights, so they can violate people's rights without interference from the pesky Constitution.
 
Oh for the love of god. I was sarcastically ridiculing TS's statement, which surely even you can recognize was a prime example of what you labeled my rejoinder. The right wing has been interested in a lot of "States' Rights" over the last 150 years, and that's painfully obvious.

I'm sorry, but that's completely inappropriate. If there's one form of expression that I want absolutely nothing to do with, it's sarcastic ridicule. :mad:
 
It's all a question of what's more important in the minds of conservatives

1) Respecting the Constitution and the intent of the Founders (PBUT)

or

2) Doing something that will probably really annoy the hippies

It's not much of a competition which is more valuable.
 
Well, fortunately we can always count on leftists to advocate holding the federal government to its few enumerated powers.

Like forcing people to buy health insurance.
 

It doesn't help that "leftists" want to get rid of the insurance model of health care entirely, and simply have the government provide "medicare for all".

(I'm fully convinced that single payer is the way to go, but I'm not entirely certain that this is the best model. It may be less disruptive to utilize current insurance companies as administrators, but still allow the gov't provide payment, negotiate prices, and so forth.)

But elections have consequences, as they say. The fact that the same people who voted for Dolt45, or stayed home, because of how awful Hillary was supposed to be, are suddenly horrified that the thin-skinned narcissistic conman is who we thought he was.
 
Well, fortunately we can always count on leftists to advocate holding the federal government to its few enumerated powers.

Like forcing people to buy health insurance.

The rightists use whatever level of government force is best suited to harm people or prohibit actions that impact only oneself. While the leftists do sometimes overreach, they generally seek to use Federal power to protect people from harm by others, which includes abusing one's fair share of "the commons". Forced health insurance is an example of the latter. Leftists recognize the fact that people without ability to pay their own health care costs lead to one of two possibilities: Either they are left to bleed out and die in the streets, or their costs must be paid for by common funds. Unlike conservatives, liberals have enough basic human empathy that rules out option 1. But option 2 amounts to the uninsured harming others by using more than their fair share of the commons. The two solutions to this are either public health care where everyone's bills are paid by the common fund or requiring each person to have proof they can cover their neccessary expenses (aka, health insurance) and supplying that insurance only to those who cannot afford it.

Contrast this well intentioned use of the Fed with conservative malicious use of federal force to cause harm to people by prohibiting them from getting the most scientifically sound medical treatments, such as abortions, often motivated by trying to profit from this harm, such as by prohibiting pot use to profit makers of far more dangerous and less effective drugs.

Also, liberals don't buy the idiocy that use of Fed power is a greater threat to individual rights than state power. In fact, most justifiable restrictions that don't needlessly violate personal liberties are equally justified for all states. Often the left supports the Fed increasing personal liberty by preventing oppressive unjust laws at the State level, as happened with the civil war, the forcible end to Jim Crow laws, the Civil rights act, the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), and Roe v Wade, etc.. All these and more were use of Fed power to protect the rights of individuals against state level oppressive of basic human and civil rights that apply equally to all states, no matter what a bigoted fascistic majority in any particular state may feel. "State rights" is just a mantra of those who want to use the power of the state against human rights.
 
COTUS is clear, limited fed power.

I am seeing commercials for vapor nicotine delivery systems. Nicotine is a poison and I heard from someone who dealt with addictions nicotine is harder to deal with than narcotics.
 
Here we go again. Justice dept threatens action over state legalization.

In COTUS rights not detailed for fed govt are with the states.

Ok conservatives, as you say let's stop interpreting COTUS and go by the intent of the founders.
Both sides are guilty as sin. It was Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer and Scalia that perpetrated this travesty; it was O'Connor, Thomas and Rehnquist who tried to let states legalize medical care. Politics makes strange bedfellows.
 

It doesn't help that "leftists" want to get rid of the insurance model of health care entirely, and simply have the government provide "medicare for all".

(I'm fully convinced that single payer is the way to go, but I'm not entirely certain that this is the best model. It may be less disruptive to utilize current insurance companies as administrators, but still allow the gov't provide payment, negotiate prices, and so forth.)

But elections have consequences, as they say. The fact that the same people who voted for Dolt45, or stayed home, because of how awful Hillary was supposed to be, are suddenly horrified that the thin-skinned narcissistic conman is who we thought he was.

Since this is obviously a bastion of people who are highly principled states rights/limited enumerated federal powers believers I'm sure you meant to say: 'I want CaliforniaCare for Californians, and whatever Care Texans want for Texans".

And of course that Medicare if obviously an affront to the Consitution which the Federal government has no enumerated power to operate.
 
Well, fortunately we can always count on leftists to advocate holding the federal government to its few enumerated powers.

Like forcing people to buy health insurance.

The rightists use whatever level of government force is best suited to harm people or prohibit actions that impact only oneself. While the leftists do sometimes overreach, they generally seek to use Federal power to protect people from harm by others, which includes abusing one's fair share of "the commons". Forced health insurance is an example of the latter. Leftists recognize the fact that people without ability to pay their own health care costs lead to one of two possibilities: Either they are left to bleed out and die in the streets, or their costs must be paid for by common funds. Unlike conservatives, liberals have enough basic human empathy that rules out option 1. But option 2 amounts to the uninsured harming others by using more than their fair share of the commons. The two solutions to this are either public health care where everyone's bills are paid by the common fund or requiring each person to have proof they can cover their neccessary expenses (aka, health insurance) and supplying that insurance only to those who cannot afford it.

Contrast this well intentioned use of the Fed with conservative malicious use of federal force to cause harm to people by prohibiting them from getting the most scientifically sound medical treatments, such as abortions, often motivated by trying to profit from this harm, such as by prohibiting pot use to profit makers of far more dangerous and less effective drugs.
People like being the heroes of our own narratives; pretending to ourselves that our opponents are demons and it's heroic to fight them is a temptation few of us can resist. Every ideology views itself through the filter of a self-congratulatory myth; that was progressivism's. If there were a conservative here he could tell us a symmetrical story about conservatives just doing the right thing while liberals are acting like subhuman scum. People of all ideologies usually have a part of their brains that knows perfectly well the bed-time stories they tell themselves about their enemies and about themselves aren't really true; that's what compartmentalization is for. Trying to see the world as it really is takes self-discipline; the emotional payoff for it is meager; and the consequences for in-group acceptance are potentially catastrophic. For very good evolutionary reasons, people would rather be approved of by their associates than right.

"Leftists recognize the fact that people without ability to pay their own health care costs lead to one of two possibilities: Either they are left to bleed out and die in the streets, or their costs must be paid for by common funds."​

No. There are three other well-known and frequently adopted solutions. There are the traditional two solutions: they turn to friends and family for help, or else they get a whopping big medical bill and it takes them a while to pay it off and sometimes they go bankrupt. And there's the modern solution: the majority orders some outvoted minority to cover the costs at its own expense.

" Unlike conservatives, liberals have enough basic human empathy that rules out option 1."​

No. Leftists knowingly and deliberately leave people to bleed out and die in the streets every day, and they self-deceive in order to not notice. (Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying this about you personally; I don't know you. It is of course possible that you're among the one in a million leftists who don't do it. But I wouldn't bet a nickel on that chance. (Also, don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying conservatives don't do it too.))

"But option 2 amounts to the uninsured harming others by using more than their fair share of the commons."​

No. You might as well claim, like the Soviets did, that since refuseniks were educated at state expense and emigration deprives the collective of a return on its investment, it's fair for the government to hold its people prisoner to keep them from "harming others" by climbing over the wall and sticking others with the bill. The Soviets deliberately ignored the fact that the refuseniks weren't given a choice about participation in state schooling and the fact that the state had systematically dismantled all competing sources of education. When a guy won't buy insurance because it's unreasonably expensive because the government jacked up the price of health care to ten times the market rate, and then he gets sick and asks for help and the government gives it to him even though he wouldn't buy insurance, that's not him harming others by using more than his fair share of the commons. That's the government harming everyone by overloading the commons.

So first permit us to buy cheap drugs from Canada, permit us to get our Pakistani doctors out of their taxicabs and into our hospitals, and permit us to open new hospitals without a "Certificate of Need"; then tell us why we have a duty to buy insurance if we can.

The two solutions to this are either public health care where everyone's bills are paid by the common fund or requiring each person to have proof they can cover their neccessary expenses (aka, health insurance) and supplying that insurance only to those who cannot afford it.

Contrast this well intentioned use of the Fed..."
That's not a well-intentioned use of the Fed. That's hunter-gatherers imposing hunter-gatherer morality on farmers. It's "well-intentioned" only if hunter-gatherer morality is correct and farmer morality is evil. Which of course is what hunter-gatherers customarily assume. Hunter-gatherers don't grok how farming works, they don't grok why it works, and they don't grok how farmer morality contributes to it working. So they just take for granted that any aspect of farmer society that doesn't follow the dictates of hunter-gatherer morality ought to be deleted from farmer societies.

In particular, they apply zero-sum-game economic reasoning, they imagine that a person with more possessions than he can carry to the next campsite is using more than his fair share of the commons, they infer that his extra stuff belongs in the common fund, and they conclude that since it's well-intentioned for the community to all take turns helping the injured guy limp to the new campsite, it must also be well-intentioned for the community to pick a guy who's unpopular because he used too much of "the commons" and make him be the guy's crutch.

So first enact a nondiscriminatory tax system; then tell us why making charity compulsory is well-intentioned.

"...with conservative malicious use of federal force to cause harm to people by prohibiting them from getting the most scientifically sound medical treatments, such as abortions, often motivated by trying to profit from this harm, such as by prohibiting pot use to profit makers of far more dangerous and less effective drugs."​

No. They aren't stopping abortions maliciously, but because they believe fetuses are people and because they believe reproduction is holy. They aren't prohibiting pot because they want people to take fentanyl so Johnson & Johnson will be richer, but because drugs are bad, m'kay? They're sincerely judging right and wrong and doing what what they think is right, just like you; they're judging what's right and wrong by relying on unsupported premises, just like you; and they're believing their ideology's self-congratulatory just-so-stories about how its adherents are good and its opponents are evil, just like you.
 
It doesn't help that "leftists" want to get rid of the insurance model of health care entirely, and simply have the government provide "medicare for all".

(I'm fully convinced that single payer is the way to go, but I'm not entirely certain that this is the best model. It may be less disruptive to utilize current insurance companies as administrators, but still allow the gov't provide payment, negotiate prices, and so forth.)

But elections have consequences, as they say. The fact that the same people who voted for Dolt45, or stayed home, because of how awful Hillary was supposed to be, are suddenly horrified that the thin-skinned narcissistic conman is who we thought he was.

Since this is obviously a bastion of people who are highly principled states rights/limited enumerated federal powers believers...

You are highly confused as to my political opinions.
 
Sometimes I think it's too bad the writers of our Constitution didn't go to the trouble of listing the powers they wanted the Federal government to have. And then maybe writing something else in there that all the other powers are left to the states or the people.

I think the founders that would have proposed that, "those men that fly through the air like birds in giant metal machines shall have the right to a comfortable seat" might have been laughed out of the room.

What would they have done with the guy that said, "instantaneous communication with all men across the Earth shall not be impeded by any organization".

It would be like, today, someone proposing an Amendment to the constitution stating that all sentient organisms from the planet Orbox-9 shall be considered a "person" for the purposes of establishing voting rights for emperor of Sol.

.. It's all just not on the transx-polytracker... err, I mean, "RADAR", as it's called today.
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/attorney-general-jeff-sessions-takes-aim-legalized-marijuana-article-1.3736948?utm_content=buffer853c7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

"Attorney General Jeff Sessions is taking aim at legalized marijuana, according to an Associated Press report.

Sessions on Thursday announced the repeal a 2013 Obama-era policy that's protected legalized marijuana from federal intervention.

The policy change would allow for each state's U.S. attorneys to decide whether to aggressively enforce the federal marijuana law — even if the substance has already been made legal in their state."

Elections have consequences. We have a wacko Attorney General because we elected a wacko President, in no small part because of the hubris of liberals and a candidate who forgot about the electoral college.

I don't support legalized marijuana*, especially for fun, the very last thing that we need is an additional legal intoxicant and I have serious doubts about its medical use. My only very limited experience with it was seeing military pilots who used it. The use of it seemed to affect their concentration and their reaction times, both very dangerous for a pilot.

I have also a very limited first hand experience with it. Before the Georgia legislature allowed the use of an oil from the marijuana, we could get joints of marijuana prescribed by an infectious disease doctor who infused cancer patients. Since I was getting methotrexate, a chemotherapy drug, for my rheumatoid arthritis I got a prescription for six "joints" of marijuana, the maximum allowed three day supply. This was possible simply because the legislature didn't outlaw the medical use of marijuana when they outlawed it for sale as an intoxicant. The Georgia legislature when they allowed the use of the oil closed the possibility of the medical use of marijuana that had been allowed! Anyway, the medical marijuana that I did get didn't affect me in any way, except to increase my dizziness. It didn't reduce my nerve pain, it didn't reduce any of the symptoms of my ALS or my arthritis.


* That being said, I am an angel investor for a friend's son who has developed and is marketing a marijuana sales aid, a table that analyzes the marijuana that a customer is buying to assure that it is what the literature says that it is. The friend invested in my son's business, so I was obliged to return the favor.
 
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