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More evidence the Shroud of Turin is Medieval

NobleSavage said:
Just looking at the domain and directory, "foxnews.com/science/", I can't be bothered to click. :)
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That's the link that came up on my phone, but rest assured it's actually an aggregated story and not a first-party piece :)
 
It's a sheet with an image of a man with a beard, with some stains that might be blood. Even if it came from the right time period, having a beard is hardly unique, and everyone has blood. So these things are hardly conclusive proof that it must be the shroud that once wrapped Jesus.
 
Does any person with sufficient intellect need any proof at all that this isn't the burial cloth of a man-god that flew away into the sky?

This thing was invented for people who give money to see things like this. It belongs with other freak show artifacts and attractants.

Put it there with the three headed chicken, the 200 year old mummy with the hair still growing, the yeti poop and fur, the unicorn horn - invisible - of course, Mohammed's missing foreskin, a chunk of a Jesus cross with some blood warm and still red, and Amelia Earhart's bones and I'll pay a few bucks just to observe the idiots gasping in disbelief. Worth every penny.
 
Well, is it stained in human blood or not? Can it be determined?

If so, I'd hate to imagine the perverted process to make such a thing.
 
What always bothers me about this thing is how, even if it were shown to come from the same time as Jesus' supposed life and death, it doesn't mean it was his burial cloth. Lots of people were buried around that time, and most of the men probably had beards. A cloth with the imprint of a bearded guy from the first century CE doesn't seem that rare of a thing to find.
 
PyramidHead said:
What always bothers me about this thing is how, even if it were shown to come from the same time as Jesus' supposed life and death, it doesn't mean it was his burial cloth. Lots of people were buried around that time, and most of the men probably had beards. A cloth with the imprint of a bearded guy from the first century CE doesn't seem that rare of a thing to find.
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You never were a Catholic, right? The correct answer is: "Tradition has...". God speaks clearly!
 
On the Jurassic Park side of things -- what if Jesus' DNA could be obtained from the shroud? I guess I'm asking if Michelle Obama could deliver the New Redeemer? Is that so far-fetched? Could it be sneaked past the GOP as a rider on a weapons system bill?
Prayerfully,
Etc., etc.
cc: Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Ann Coulter, Franklin Graham
 
JC burial cloths

The Jews of the first century did not bury their dead in a shroud or linen cloths.

That custom did not originate until the early second century c 120CE.
Until then Jews were buried in their best apparel.
It was a prominent Jewish leader, Rabban Gamaliel [the latter of 2 such], who popularized the custom of being buried in a simple humble linen cloth in the early second century and the custom become widespread and established after that.

Thus describing JC's burial cloths as is done in the gospels is an anachronism and strongly indicative early 2nd C as an appropriate date for the earliest possible time for the writing of both g"John" and g"Mark" [which also referes to a linen shroud].

The online Jewish Encyclopedia has reference to all this for those who wish to check.
See 'Gamaliel" and "shroud".
 
The shroud of Turin is a linen cloth (approx. 4.36 m x 1.1 m) which was first shown in 1357 at Lirey, a very small village in Champagne, near Troyes, east of Paris, France. Then, Pierre d’Arcis, the bishop of Troyes, published a text of his predecessor, Henri de Poitiers, in which it was described how the shroud had been painted. The painter had confessed the whole story to bishop Henri de Poitiers. In 1453 Marguerite de Charny deeded the Shroud to the House of Savoy. In 1578 the shroud was transferred in Turin. The tissue was analysed in 1988 by Walter Mac Crone. Radiocarbon datation showed that the tissue should have been made between 1260 and 1390.
 
History of the Shroud of Turin

The archives of the french département (district) Aube, in the town Troyes, (series 9 G) preserve the first written traces mentioning the existence of the shroud of the collegiate church of Lirey. The collegiate church of Lirey was not dependent of the bishop of Troyes.

Around 1350, the shroud appeared in Lirey and was shown for the first time in 1357. The chevalier (knight) Geoffroy de Charny who was the lord of the village, obtained in 1353 a pension from the king of France John II the Good to build the collegiate church of Lirey. The church was built and the shroud preserved inside it. To help pigrimages, Pope Innocent IV (1243-1254) granted indulgences to the pilgrims. In 1356 Geoffroy de Charny was killed at the battle of Poitiers. His son Geoffroy II de Charny succeeded him and died in 1398.

In the archives, one can find a papal bull edicted by Pope of Avignon Clement VII (1378-1394). This bull tries to put an end to a conflict between Geoffroy II (plus the collegial church canons) and the bishop of Troyes, Pierre d’Arcis. Many times had Pierre d’Arcis forbidden the exposition of the shroud, which he considered to be a recent forgery. In 1389, the Pope had authorized the exposition. Then Pierre d’Arcis wrote a report to the Pope to prove that the shroud is the work of a forger. In january 1390, Clement VII published an arbitration, promulgating four similar acts, one for the bishop of Troyes, one for Geoffroy II de Charny, and the other two for two neighbouring bishops. Two of these documents are preserved in the archives of Aube.

After having reminded that the exposition of the shroud is legitimate, and reminded the stages of the conflict, the Pope compels the person responsible for the exposition to say clearly and intelligibly in loud voice "this figure or representation is not the true shroud of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but only a painting or a picture which represents him". The pope’s decision forbids also that the ceremonies be too sumptuous, as this could incite the fidels to believe in the authenticity of the relic.

The shroud of Turin is an image (an icon), not a relic.

In 1453 Marguerite de Charny deeded the Shroud to the House of Savoy. In 1578 the shroud was transferred in Turin.
 
Huon said:
The Jews of the first century did not bury their dead in a shroud or linen cloths.

That custom did not originate until the early second century c 120CE.
Until then Jews were buried in their best apparel.
It was a prominent Jewish leader, Rabban Gamaliel [the latter of 2 such], who popularized the custom of being buried in a simple humble linen cloth in the early second century and the custom become widespread and established after that.

Thus describing JC's burial cloths as is done in the gospels is an anachronism and strongly indicative early 2nd C as an appropriate date for the earliest possible time for the writing of both g"John" and g"Mark" [which also referes to a linen shroud].

The online Jewish Encyclopedia has reference to all this for those who wish to check.
See 'Gamaliel" and "shroud".
Click to expand...

Gamaliel might have popularized the custom, but that only means it was already in existence, but just not widely done. Which does nothing to aid in the dating of the gospels.
 
What the shroud is, effectively, is a litmus test of the observer. How does your mind work when you hear about it? I have crazy-ass relatives who are gung-ho on the miraculous shroud. It's no less baffling to me than all the signs and portents that tell the true believers that they have found the Ultimate Reality. My relatives, specifically, can balance their checkbooks, discuss current events (well, most current events) cogently, they have bachelor degrees from accredited colleges, and yet -- anything their church leaders propound is the way it is. Unfucking real. Total disengagement of the function of critical thinking.
 
ideologyhunter said:
What the shroud is, effectively, is a litmus test of the observer. How does your mind work when you hear about it?
Click to expand...
Wonderful image.

It brought to mind the Simpson's episode where Bart's looking at the ads in the back of a comic. He dismisses several "Bogus," "Scam," "Rip-off," then finds one he HAS to have, buying that hype completely and at face value. I always thought of that as the magic part of humanity, the piece of childlike hope in each and every one of us that keeps scam artists, state lotteries and casinos in operation.
 
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