More non-religious non-conflict in moderate Muslim nation

[untermensche]

That's not the latest instance, it's a previous instance to the latest instance. Prior to which there was a steady buildup of persecution.

I'd take you more seriously in these sorts of threads if you demonstrated some sense of consistency. Name three causes that you think excuse this barbarism. One handwave for each unjust death that you're so keen to excuse.

Three causes that violence is used as a tool in Indonesia?

Are you joking?

 

[untermensche]

And what about influences beyond Islam?

In Indonesia what about the genocide in 1965 and 66? What effect does that have on the society, even today?

In the Middle East, what about the US invasion of Iraq which quickly turned into a regime of torture?

Of course religion is in the mix, but it is only one element. It can act as a fuel if fires are lit by massive terror.

When group A tells group B to convert to group A's religion or be exiled, it is nothing short of ludicrous to imagine that the conflict isn't fuelled by and about religion.

You combine religion with other factors, like a history of incredible violence and oppression, and you can many times end up with outbursts of violence.

To say it is only religion is to be as ignorant as could be.

 

[Deepak]

That's not the latest instance, it's a previous instance to the latest instance. Prior to which there was a steady buildup of persecution.

I'd take you more seriously in these sorts of threads if you demonstrated some sense of consistency. Name three causes that you think excuse this barbarism. One handwave for each unjust death that you're so keen to excuse.

Three causes that violence is used as a tool in Indonesia?

Are you joking?

So no argument.

 

[untermensche]

Three causes that violence is used as a tool in Indonesia?

Are you joking?

So no argument.

To a joke question?

When a nation has a history of massive terror the causes of violence at any time can never be reduced to one factor.

To think so is to show extreme simplicity.

 

[Deepak]

So no argument.

To a joke question?

When a nation has a history of massive terror the causes of violence at any time can never be reduced to one factor.

To think so is to show extreme simplicity.

Is there any violence your nonsensical utterance can't justify? For one who claims to be so concerned about violence you seem to have a peculiar desire to provide apologia.

 

[untermensche]

To a joke question?

When a nation has a history of massive terror the causes of violence at any time can never be reduced to one factor.

To think so is to show extreme simplicity.

Is there any violence your nonsensical utterance can't justify? For one who claims to be so concerned about violence you seem to have a peculiar desire to provide apologia.

To say it can't be reduced to one factor, that there are many societal factors beyond religion, is only an apology to one incapable of thought.

 

[Deepak]

For anyone at home who wants to keep score https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

 

[barbos]

I wonder what Reza Aslan has to say about that.

 

[untermensche]

You deliberately rigged against the possibility of substantiating my characterisation by suggesting I furnish a written statement of yours to the effect that you think Islamic violence never has to do with religion, when you know my characterisation is an inference formed not from any single statement you've made but over dozens of posts over months and years.

You don't get to frame the terms of the debate or decide the rules of evidence and then call me out for not playing along.

Nonetheless, it's not my position that Islam has "nothing to do" with this or other conflicts like it, that's not been the focus of my arguments at FRDB and if you think it is you should try fucking reading more carefully before you attempt to put words in other peoples' mouths.

I put no words into your mouth; indeed, the only statement I made specifically about you is my belief about your belief. That is:

I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam.

untermensche effectively did come out and say it; you did not. Evidently, I was mistaken about what position you would take.

Being mistaken is not putting words in your mouth.

You are full of shit.

The simple minded position is that this is due to ONE thing.

The intelligent position is that this is a complex issue with many societal factors in play.

 

[Bomb#20]

From SMH

Jakarta: A minority Muslim group has been ordered to convert to Sunni Islam or be expelled from Bangka island, off the coast of Sumatra, in the latest religious crackdown in Indonesia.
...
In a letter seen by Fairfax Media, Bangka Island's most senior bureaucrat, Fery Insani, says: "The Ahmadiyah congregation are not allowed to spread their religion. Ahmadiyah followers in Srimenanti village must immediately repent in accordance with Islamic sharia that there is no prophet after the prophet Muhammad." He said if they did not abide by this a meeting had decided they must immediately leave Bangka and return to their place of origin.
...
Asro Matnur, an Ahmadiyah from Bangka island, said tensions began when the Ahmadiyah community distributed beef to their neighbours during Idul Adha, a religious holiday celebrated by Muslims worldwide.
...
In 2008 the former Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono government announced a decree restricting Ahmadiyah activities outside of Ahmadi communities.
Following the decree, three Ahmadiyah were killed by a frenzied group of Islamists in Cikeusik in 2011, while hundreds of onlookers cheered.
...

Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. ...

Has anybody else noticed the depressing regularity with which, when some organized group of Muslims get themselves into the news by doing something nice for others, standing up for the rights of gays and women, condemning terrorism and religious violence, or otherwise generally doing their level best to make Islam look like a religion of peace, it turns out they're Ahmadi?

 

[TSwizzle]

Has anybody else noticed the depressing regularity with which, when some organized group of Muslims get themselves into the news by doing something nice for others, standing up for the rights of gays and women, condemning terrorism and religious violence, or otherwise generally doing their level best to make Islam look like a religion of peace, it turns out they're Ahmadi?

No, not really but if that is the case, it stands to reason as Ahmadi are heretics.

 

[Bomb#20]

The simple minded position is that this is due to ONE thing.

I did not say it and don't believe it.

Neither does untermensche. He consistently recognizes complexity and multifactorial cause and effect

The simple minded position is that this is due to ONE thing.

The intelligent position is that this is a complex issue with many societal factors in play.

You combine religion with other factors, like a history of incredible violence and oppression, and you can many times end up with outbursts of violence.

To say it is only religion is to be as ignorant as could be.

When a nation has a history of massive terror the causes of violence at any time can never be reduced to one factor.

To think so is to show extreme simplicity.

And what about influences beyond Islam?

In Indonesia what about the genocide in 1965 and 66? What effect does that have on the society, even today?

In the Middle East, what about the US invasion of Iraq which quickly turned into a regime of torture?

Of course religion is in the mix, but it is only one element. It can act as a fuel if fires are lit by massive terror.

One can always look at the latest violence and pretend it is the root cause of violence.

There are causes upon causes upon causes.

Human life can never be reduced to one variable.

...provided the perpetrators are non-Western.

Israel is a nation that favors Jews and tortures Muslims.

And it does this because of religious delusions.

It is a menace and the US should stop shielding it from having to answer for it's many many crimes.

And you my friend are deluded if you really believe the crap you're spewing! Muslims in Israel have more rights than any in any other Muslim majority country on earth.

Muslims in Israel were made a minority by force and are kept a minority by unending brutal force.

It is a phony democracy.

And all because of religious delusion.

Oh, sorry, was I not supposed to bring up that last exchange?

 

[untermensche]

...provided the perpetrators are non-Western.

Oh, sorry, was I not supposed to bring up that last exchange?

Bullshit.

The ignorant position on Israel is that it is all the fault of violent Palestinians, who have a violent nature due to their religion.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I just wanna jump in here now before Sam Harris is mentioned so I don't get accused of being a fanboi again. (Ah who am I kidding, it will never work. )

 

[Axulus]

As Maajid Nawaz has said with similar incidents, it is just as absurd to say this incident has everything to do with Islam as it is to say that it has nothing to do with Islam.

Is there anyone who disagrees with that?

 

[untermensche]

As Maajid Nawaz has said with similar incidents, it is just as absurd to say this incident has everything to do with Islam as it is to say that it has nothing to do with Islam.

Is there anyone who disagrees with that?

But it's like saying Christianity had something to do with the Ku Klux Klan.

The ME has been dominated by Iran and Saudi Arabia, as far as the Muslim nations.

Both are religious States. Both are religious States because of Western interference.

Then you throw in the US invasion of Iraq and the blowing up of the ME and the rise of ISIS.

The flames of religious fanaticism have been lit by forces removed from Islam.

All Islam is is a tool fanatics, once radicalized by other reasons, can use to try to achieve power.

It isn't the root cause of anything.

Just like Christianity wasn't the root cause behind the KKK.

 

[Frikki]

Assuming there is a point, what is it?

I posted a series of statements in response to the article. I would call the statements 'satire', except that they are regarded as literally true by some of the alleged freethinkers on this board. I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam. There should be no shelter from criticism for people who look at a conflict unmistakeably fuelled by religion and then blithely imagine that it isn't.

Simple explanations are for simpletons and children. Saying it is Islam or Christianity or Communism is a simple explanation.

Your nation has a history of genocide against aboriginals. What is the simple explanation for that, was it because the settlers were white, English, Christians? No, it was more complex, it was a combination of factors.

 

[Metaphor]

I posted a series of statements in response to the article. I would call the statements 'satire', except that they are regarded as literally true by some of the alleged freethinkers on this board. I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam. There should be no shelter from criticism for people who look at a conflict unmistakeably fuelled by religion and then blithely imagine that it isn't.

Simple explanations are for simpletons and children. Saying it is Islam or Christianity or Communism is a simple explanation.

Your nation has a history of genocide against aboriginals. What is the simple explanation for that, was it because the settlers were white, English, Christians? No, it was more complex, it was a combination of factors.

There are no simple explanations for complex social phenomena, and I have never said or implied there were.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?7394-Derail-from-non-religious-non-conflict