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Music question

Rhea

Rhea

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I know next to nothing about music, so speak to me in elementary concepts, please.

Why is is so easy to change a song by one octave when your voice doesn't match the original, but so hard to do it by a half an octave?

I'm listening to my son sing to his ipod and his voice is deeper than the original, but not quite deep enough to drop an entire octave for the whole song; certain portions require him to jump back up.

So why is it so hard to pick your own range and sing along with it?
 
Because one octave down or up is in the same key. Half an octave is a different key.

In other words if you step up an octave from the A key, you get a higher version of A. It's the same tone.
 
But... but... what's a "key" and why does it matter? Isn't a hertz a hertz? I mean, I know basically what a key signature is Key of G key of C etc, tell you when to sharp and flat. Which I assume it to make it sound normal in terms of what's a full step and what's a half step and to keep those correlated for the western ear.

But what is magical about going down the exact number of hertzes for one octave (what is that, 6 full steps or something?) for every note and not half that many hertzes. What happens if you change the key? What is is about the A key that always sounds A-key-ey?

(this may be really dissonant, this question, sorry if I'm completely destroying music here)
 
Follow up, is it mathematical or just pleasing to the ear?
 
I managed to quiz my son as he took a break from singing to load the dishwasher. He discloses that he does not know music theory but supposed that it would sound fine to go down several keys and not an entire octave AS LONG AS you're not trying to sing along with the original, because then the two keys simultaneously would be discordant if you didn't do a clean octave.


Yes you can drop each individual note by one step or 2 or 5, he thinks, but the new key won't be something you're used to hearing together with the original key at the same time. You might by accident wind up with a combination that sounds asian or middle eastern, but it might also just sound like grunge.

So does that make any sense and is it close to a musical answer, or is he off base? It seems like it makes sense to me mathematically...
 
Rhea said:
But... but... what's a "key" and why does it matter? Isn't a hertz a hertz? I mean, I know basically what a key signature is Key of G key of C etc, tell you when to sharp and flat. Which I assume it to make it sound normal in terms of what's a full step and what's a half step and to keep those correlated for the western ear.

But what is magical about going down the exact number of hertzes for one octave (what is that, 6 full steps or something?) for every note and not half that many hertzes. What happens if you change the key? What is is about the A key that always sounds A-key-ey?

(this may be really dissonant, this question, sorry if I'm completely destroying music here)
Click to expand...

You've reached the limit of my musical knowledge, unfortunately.

As to your other post, though, yea you can play different notes together as long as they're in the same scale.

For any given octave there is a defined set of (half or whole) steps that represent the scale, or passage from one note to a higher or lower similar note. To my understanding the series of steps never changes.
 
My understanding is based almost solely on what I see on the piano and what I've picked up attending my children's piano lessons. So take it with a huge pile of salt... I'm okay with typing out what I think I know, expecting it's mostly wrong and asking for corrections or confirmations. They say, the fastest way to get an answer on the internet is not to write a question, but to write something wrong and people will leap to correct you.

An octave that sounds good to western ears (i'm told) is what you get when you march up the white keys on a piano. And every time there are two white keys together, that's when our culture teaches us to expect a half-step instead of a whole step. The basic one (is it the key of "G" I think?) is using all white notes and the piano does the whole and half steps for you by the way it's laid out.

If you go up to the next key (whatever that is, A?) you have to start using the black notes so that you can maintain the western sound: whole-step,whole-step, half-step, whole whole whole half. So you have to "sharp" or "flat" the ones that need a half step in a place where the piano doesn't automatically give you a half step.

Which is fine, you just change keys to maintain the original music's writing of whether it was a whole or a half... I thought. And so how is that so hard?

My son's explanation suggests that it is not, in fact, hard to do. But it'll sound like crap if you play it side by side with the original, unless it happens to land on something that already sounds like a pleasing chord.

And again, I'm seeking correction on this if it's wrong, which is likely, because I never studied music outside of sitting in on my kids' lessons.


Corollary - the kids were trying to change some piece of music so that the one with the saxophone could play something that was written for the other's trumpet. They said it was this hard thing to do to arrange the music for the new key. It seems like computers are your friend here because it's just a vertical translation function really, right? Go up the requisite number of steps and keep track of whether that new step is now a sharp or flat instead of a natural?

Of course, old mom didn't understand why this was even necessary, a hertz is a hertz and why is not a certain frequency ALWAYS a certain note no matter what instrument you are on? But for reasons I do not comprehend, they aren't. A "b-flat" on the trumpet is not the same frequency sound as a "B-flat" on the saxophone. This is mysterious to me.

The kids talk like it's completely obvious. "Mom, no it's not a G, because it's on the trumpet and that's a B-flat instrument!" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!! Well, to me. Obviously it makes sense to people who know music. Why can't the whole band read from the same sheet music!?
 
Horatio Parker said:
Instruments are based on different fundamentals; the length of strings or pipes. That fundamental pitch is often written as C regardless of the pitch(it's easier to learn to read music that way). So a trumpet pitched in Bb will read a part where written C sounds Bb ie written a step higher.

http://mmallory.fcsd.wnyric.org/documents/concertpitchchart.pdf
Click to expand...

Oh my god, that makes so much sense and you have completely explained it in one freaking sentence. Thank you. Wow - the light just came on.

All right, now I'll go to your link to learn more, but I'm giddy with understanding.
Of course. That makes perfect sense. Whatever note the instrument makes without holding any keys down or doing anything special, that is your base. Now call your base "C" so you can read your first songs with no sharps or flat on the score.

That answers the inter-instrument issue.
Any help on the changing the song for a lower voice issue? Are my son's and my guesses close to the reason?
 
Rhea said:
Horatio Parker said:
Instruments are based on different fundamentals; the length of strings or pipes. That fundamental pitch is often written as C regardless of the pitch(it's easier to learn to read music that way). So a trumpet pitched in Bb will read a part where written C sounds Bb ie written a step higher.

http://mmallory.fcsd.wnyric.org/documents/concertpitchchart.pdf
Click to expand...

Oh my god, that makes so much sense and you have completely explained it in one freaking sentence. Thank you. Wow - the light just came on.

All right, now I'll go to your link to learn more, but I'm giddy with understanding.
Of course. That makes perfect sense. Whatever note the instrument makes without holding any keys down or doing anything special, that is your base. Now call your base "C" so you can read your first songs with no sharps or flat on the score.

That answers the inter-instrument issue.
Any help on the changing the song for a lower voice issue? Are my son's and my guesses close to the reason?
Click to expand...

Minor nitpick: A trumpet can play different notes without holding any keys down. A bugle doesn't even have any keys. Think Taps - the whole song is played without pressing the buttons. Of course, you're severely limited in the notes you can hit with that technique - and that essentially defines the C.

As for tuning - the idea is that people enjoy sounds whose frequency ratios are the ratios of small whole numbers, so an octave change would be the ratio 2/1 because the higher pitch has exactly twice the frequency. A 'fifth' would be the ratio 3/2, a fourth would be 4/3, a third 5/4, and so on. Instead of switching to half the frequency (dropping an octave) try switching to 2/3 or 3/4, etc.
 
I'm guessing from what you say that he's listening to a pop or rock song sung by either a soprano or a tenor. Most lead singers are in the higher registers.

His range is probably lower. So to sing the song comfortably, it would have to be transposed to a lower key. How far depends on the difference in range. Or, his voice may be in the same register, but without training he can't hit all of the notes.
 
beero1000 said:
Minor nitpick: A trumpet can play different notes without holding any keys down. A bugle doesn't even have any keys. Think Taps - the whole song is played without pressing the buttons. Of course, you're severely limited in the notes you can hit with that technique - and that essentially defines the C.
Click to expand...
True, good point. But the beginner will tend toward the lower note until their lip use gets stronger/better for the higher notes.
As for tuning - the idea is that people enjoy sounds whose frequency ratios are the ratios of small whole numbers, so an octave change would be the ratio 2/1 because the higher pitch has exactly twice the frequency. A 'fifth' would be the ratio 3/2, a fourth would be 4/3, a third 5/4, and so on. Instead of switching to half the frequency (dropping an octave) try switching to 2/3 or 3/4, etc.
Click to expand...

:) Thank you.
 
Horatio Parker said:
I'm guessing from what you say that he's listening to a pop or rock song sung by either a soprano or a tenor. Most lead singers are in the higher registers.

His range is probably lower. So to sing the song comfortably, it would have to be transposed to a lower key. How far depends on the difference in range. Or, his voice may be in the same register, but without training he can't hit all of the notes.
Click to expand...

Yes, he's usually needing to be lower. For example, he can sing Warren Zevon songs fine. A soprano he can usually go down an octave and be okay, I think. But those tenors are in the middle and he can't do an octave below their lowest notes.

I expect with training he could widen his range and I'm thinking of offering him lessons once he's done with the school musical, if he wants them. He's not trying to be a performer, he just loves to sing and it would be nice for him to be able to sing anything, you know?
 
Rhea said:
Horatio Parker said:
Instruments are based on different fundamentals; the length of strings or pipes. That fundamental pitch is often written as C regardless of the pitch(it's easier to learn to read music that way). So a trumpet pitched in Bb will read a part where written C sounds Bb ie written a step higher.

http://mmallory.fcsd.wnyric.org/documents/concertpitchchart.pdf
Click to expand...

Oh my god, that makes so much sense and you have completely explained it in one freaking sentence. Thank you. Wow - the light just came on.

All right, now I'll go to your link to learn more, but I'm giddy with understanding.
Of course. That makes perfect sense. Whatever note the instrument makes without holding any keys down or doing anything special, that is your base. Now call your base "C" so you can read your first songs with no sharps or flat on the score.

That answers the inter-instrument issue.
Any help on the changing the song for a lower voice issue? Are my son's and my guesses close to the reason?
Click to expand...

I struggled with that as an adolescent when my voice went too low for the parts I was learning... there is no hope. :)
Seriously, octaves are doubling or halving of the Hz (frequency), causing a very regular pattern of waveform cancellation and reinforcement. Thirds (major or minor), fifths and even fourths also set up regular patterns against the key frequency, but are more spread-out. You can see these patterns in the waveform representations of modern audio software, and even on an oscilloscope.

If you want to get REALLY deep into the matter of how those relationships evoke human emotion, I recommend Hermann Helmholtz's "On the Sensations of Tone". It gets pretty far out there, bordering on mysticism, but it will definitely gitcha thinking. Great book, IMHO.
 
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Elixir said:
I struggled with that as an adolescent when my voice went too low for the parts I was learning... there is no hope. :)
Seriously, octaves are doubling or halving of the Hz (frequency), causing a very regular pattern of waveform cancellation and reinforcement. Thirds (major or minor), fifths and even fourths also set up regular patterns against the key frequency, but are more spread-out. You can see these patterns in the waveform representations of modern audio software, and even on an oscilloscope.
Click to expand...


That helps, yes I can visualize that.
If you want to get REALLY deep into the matter of how those relationships evoke human emotion, I recommend Hermann Helmholtz's "On the Sensations of Tone". It gets pretty far out there, bordering on mysticism, but it will definitely gitcha thinking. Great book, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Sounds interesting. (pun intended)
 
Rhea said:
I know next to nothing about music, so speak to me in elementary concepts, please.

Why is is so easy to change a song by one octave when your voice doesn't match the original, but so hard to do it by a half an octave?

I'm listening to my son sing to his ipod and his voice is deeper than the original, but not quite deep enough to drop an entire octave for the whole song; certain portions require him to jump back up.

So why is it so hard to pick your own range and sing along with it?
Click to expand...

Most (western) music is based on the major scale and thus has created the sense of what you think is real music. The major scale is not homogenous: all steps within the scale is not if equal size, the third and seventh steps are only half the others.

The differences in the steplenght results in a tonal center: we perceive the roles if the tones as different: when we established a scale each the last tone of the scale leads very strongly to the first while the first etc.

When we sings songs we simply sings the scale but in different order and rythm. Thus almost all songs have an implicit scale.

If you drop an octave all tones will have the same relations to the other tones as if you sung in the original octave. (The distance to where the half steps are will differ) since the scale repeats itself each octave.

but if you drop down three tones of the major scale you sooner or later will have to choose wether to select a tone within the original scale or within the melody as started from your tone.

Keepin singing the melody from your start tone, which is easiest, results in tones, and relations, that not belongs to the implicit scale and thus doesnt sound "right".

Singing the scale tones, which is harder, results in a nice sounding second part.

So the answer in short:
Because songs has implicit scales and theese scales repeat each octave.

An interesting thing is to test what happens when thr scale IS homogenous. As whole tone scales, dimscales (whole/half) etc.
But then those scales sound as if you sing wrong anyway...

(There are scales that doesnt repeat at the octave but those are very, very rare.)
 
So the answer in short:
Because songs has implicit scales and theese scales repeat each octave.

An interesting thing is to test what happens when thr scale IS homogenous. As whole tone scales, dimscales (whole/half) etc.
But then those scales sound as if you sing wrong anyway...
Click to expand...

Thank you! I will spend some time processing this. I think I see what you are saying, now I need to see how I make it wrap around the little that I do know. :)
 
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