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Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer

Jason Harvestdancer

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Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

...

Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

...

Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?

This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."
 
Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

...

Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

...

Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?

This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."

Well, if you cherry pick and quote mine, you can make it sound like Josef Stalin was a tender-hearted humanitarian and Jonas Salk endorsed genocide. It isn't even hard.

But if you want to accurately assess a person's beliefs and values you have to look beyond their occasional moment of pique or clumsy analogy. You have to try to understand what they think is important or unimportant, what's worth saving and what should be changed or discarded. And if you're trying to understand what a political party stands for, you have to look at what they do when they're in power.

You might not be able to tell the difference between Trump and Obama, but I'd bet my next paycheck most people could easily sort their proposals into the correct columns.
 
Fine.

"We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."

"We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
 
Fine.

"We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."

"We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"

The first one sounds like Trump and the second one is definitely Obama.

Trump loathes the thought of non-whites pouring into the country and he typically employs Appeals to Emotions to justify his decisions. Also, he's not a big fan of that whole "nation of laws" thing.

Obama believes in upholding the law, even laws that inconvenience him or hinder his ambitions. He made deporting undocumented criminals a priority. The explanation for that decision was pretty typical of Obama's speaking style: well reasoned and reasonable.
 
Relationship of parties and policies

An experiment we conducted with our colleagues at North Star Research in a poll for USA Today and the Bipartisan Policy Center illustrates the point (though I alone am responsible for any errors in interpretation here).

We presented respondents with two different education plans, the details of which are unimportant in this context. What is important is that half the sample was told A was the Democratic plan and B was the Republican plan, while the other half of our national sample was told A was the Republican plan and B was the Democrats’ approach.

The questions dealt with substantive policy on a subject quite important to most Americans — education — and issues that people are familiar with — class size, teacher pay and the like.

Nonetheless, when the specifics in Plan A were presented as the Democratic plan and B as the Republican plan, Democrats preferred A by 75 percent to 17 percent, and Republicans favored B by 13 percent to 78 percent. When the exact same elements of A were presented in the exact same words, but as the Republicans’ plan, and with B as the Democrats’ plan, Democrats preferred B by 80 percent to 12 percent, while Republicans preferred “their party’s plan” by 70 percent to 10 percent. Independents split fairly evenly both times. In short, support for an identical education plan shifted by more than 60 points among partisans, depending on which party was said to back it.

Other experiments elicit similar results. A study by Yale psychologist Geoffrey Cohen found that, absent partisan information, liberal students favored a welfare plan that was more generous than any existing policy, while conservatives favored a plan more stringent than any in existence. However, when told the stringent policy was the “Democratic plan,” liberals favored it and conservatives opposed it. When told the generous policy was the Republican approach, conservatives favored it and liberals opposed it. Again, partisanship is driving policy preference.
 
Fine.

"We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."
What do you fear would happen? Are you just angry because they're flouting the rules?

"We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
One method of disguising xenophobia is to label the others criminals, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, &c.
 
Fine.

"We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country."
What do you fear would happen? Are you just angry because they're flouting the rules?

"We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security,"
One method of disguising xenophobia is to label the others criminals, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, &c.

Those quotes do not represent my point of view, they are just quotes.

Obama quotes. Both of them.
 
Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!
 
Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!

Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.
 
Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!

Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.

I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*
 
The first one sounds like Trump and the second one is definitely Obama.
The first one is way too well spoken to be Trump. The second one refers to six years, and again, too well spoken to be Trump.

President Guess Who said:
Chain migration is a disaster, and very unfair to our country. The visa lottery is something that should have never been allowed in the first place. People enter a lottery to come into our country. What kind of a system is that? It is time for Congress to act and to protect Americans.
 
Ah... the good ole False Equivalence via a Vacuum Fallacy. Wait... is that even a thing? Well, if not, it is now.

Take a couple things, put them in a vacuum, and ignore everything else. SEE!!! THEY BE JUST AS BAD!

Yea, simply ignore all policy positions of each party, then claim they offer nothing. Sort of like there is no point in comparing two chefs. If you ignore all their food then the chefs offers nothing! Oh, offer a cracker from each with nothing on it to see if you can tell the difference.

I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*

Could you cite these ideology/policy similarities? And can you show your work on how there are more similarities than differences?
 
I'm going to defend Jason on this one (without necessarily defending the article or anything reason.com has to say); the point is that on ideology and/or policy, there are sometimes more similarities than differences when you peel away party affiliation as the most important variable in determining where a political figure stands. If you group by support for issues that libertarians care about, they all look like authoritarian statists and war hawks. If you group by the issues socialists care about, they all look like corporate shills and reactionaries. To say that such perspectives must be false because they don't regard whatever differences exist in your mind as important is begging the question; accordingly, to say that such perspectives are equivalent because, for different reasons, they disregard the differences you think are important is also lazy.

EDIT: Attributing the Obama quote to Trump is, in the context of this thread, just... *chef's kiss*

Could you cite these ideology/policy similarities?

For policies, I would say the items on this list have fairly broad consensus in both parties, although the people who disagree are almost always Democratic.

Support of Israel as a legitimate state
Hostility towards Latin American countries who elect socialist leaders
In favor of the continued existence of private health insurance
Against the abolition of for-profit prisons
Opposed to the nationalization of energy production
Against the cancellation of student debt and medical debt
Uninterested in high speed, free public transportation across the country
In favor of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, and other such trade agreements
Against nuclear energy
Against national rent control
Against reparations for blacks and indigenous people
Acceptance of corporate money for campaigns
Etc.

Ideologically, the umbrella term for the above collection of policies is something like "neoliberal", which is a position characterized by a prioritization of markets as the primary driver of innovation and economic growth, with a corresponding disdain or reluctance about welfare programs, and an emphasis on individualism and psychological factors as drivers of behavior rather than economic ones. Real class differences are subsumed under the heading of "middle class" (which according to Liz Warren literally means anyone who is not a billionaire), and false divisions within the working class are created along racial and gender lines. In Marxist terms, this is what a bourgeois republic looks like, with the institutions of power and influence channeled toward reproducing the dominance of that class over the working class.

And can you show your work on how there are more similarities than differences?
The number of differences is not what's important, it's which differences are regarded as relevant or negligible, and that depends on one's ideology.
 
The OP does point the obvious that there is a lot of just pure partisan haranguing. But the OP is based on the logical fallacy that similarities on some issues means there are no differences on all issues.
 
Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

...

Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

...

Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?

This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."

It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.

There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.
 
Mutual Hatred Is All Democrats and Republicans Have to Offer - The partisan factions aren't fighting for anything more than the power to destroy each other.

Identity established by mutual loathing is pretty much all there is to go on when partisans of the two factions so rapidly change positions, sometimes despising one another for holding fast to beliefs they themselves once supported. In their struggle for control of the government, it's all about loyalty and power, without any deeper meaning.

...

Of course, Republicans downplay moral issues at a time when the president from their party shows every sign of being morally crippled, just as Democrats deemphasized morals when their own occupant of the White House had his sleaziness on display. Then as now, tribal affiliation overcame any supposed principles.

...

Fundamentally, then, what defines Republicans and Democrats isn't programs or beliefs or ideology—it's achieving power and destroying the enemy in the process. What's done once power is achieved—beyond grinding "evil" and "immoral" enemies into dust—is secondary at best.

Since platforms and ideas don't really matter, there's no room for finding common ground or cutting deals. Opposing political factions can compromise, for good or ill, on health care bills and defense schemes. But how do you split the difference when what separates you isn't a matter of firm values or principles, but a mutual desire to seize total control and to smash all who don't wear your gang colors?

This explains why pointing out hypocrisy doesn't work anymore. If I were to post an Obama quote without attribution but a picture of Donald Trump, you'd all say "of course he believes that, he's evil orange Hitler."

It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.

It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.
 
Libertarianism castigates the current political landscape behind a shield of impractical ideology. In some charitable moments, I believe that this is the main attraction of libertarianism. That it allows the faithful to wash their hands of politics without putting themselves out there in any meaningful way.
 
It is becoming ever more axiomatic that the only thing that both parties can agree on is that libertarians are delusional.

Of course, it is about political power. It always has been and it always will be. It is delusional to believe that politics is about ideological purity. Only someone with an ideology that is so impractical, that is so alien to history and to basic human nature can believe that ideological purity can provide a viable basis for governing a country.

Some of us lived through the result of the prime example of ideological purity meeting reality when faced with actually governing a country when Marxian philosophy turned into the brutal authoritarian communism of Soviet Russia. Like libertarianism, Marx's philosophy is an anarchist one where governments would disappear to be replaced by a new spirit among men that has been suppressed forever by evil men wanting the power of government as a shortcut to enrich themselves.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

There are, of course, differences between the two. Marx's new man would believe that he is achieving his individual good by solely working for the common good while libertarianism's new man would be working solely for his individual good which would magically combine into bettering the common good. Neither is viable.

It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.

Yes, exactly. The political parties in the US are at each other's throats not because of differences between themselves but because they are so close to each other. There still is an American philosophy of government largely adhered to by both parties.

I haven't read through the thread yet, but this idea certainly has already appeared in it.
 
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

It looks like both parties agree on more than libertarians, then. It's funny how, no matter what the topic, it just so happens that the mainstream of American political thought is in the ballpark of reality, and is the closest to a neutral, apolitical stance on history and economics that we can hope for.

Yes, exactly. The political parties in the US are at each others throats not because of differences between themselves but because they are so close to each other. There still is an American philosophy of government largely adhered to by both parties.

The fact that it's American, and not just "politics" or "economics" or "history", is what escapes the notice of people who parrot American Cold War talking points about the communist movement in the 20th century. Hint hint.
 
Support of Israel as a legitimate state
Hostility towards Latin American countries who elect socialist leaders
In favor of the continued existence of private health insurance
Against the abolition of for-profit prisons
Opposed to the nationalization of energy production
Against the cancellation of student debt and medical debt
Uninterested in high speed, free public transportation across the country
In favor of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, and other such trade agreements
Against nuclear energy
Against national rent control
Against reparations for blacks and indigenous people
Acceptance of corporate money for campaigns

That's a fine list.

Some of them are wrong. Some of the suggestions are just plain stupid.

I suggest this link for all to view, Quite comprehensive.

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/
 
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