my solution to the confederate flag nonsense

[Crazy Eddie]

nope - the colors of africa are those of the flag of ethiopia:

View attachment 3349



you're talking about the UNIA flag:



which obviously will not work for a number of reasons, the most obvious being that very, very few africans are actually black - they're brown or, more to point, dirt colored like all humans. also, it represents Africa, which includes all kinds of people. and finally, it's meant to unify southerners of all 'colors' in deference to our african heritage. also, Marcus Garvey was a loon.

I've only heard of the black, green and red. Seems like an American flag attempting to include AAs should be representative of AAs….

Two things:

1) "African American" is a bullshit term implying that the thing that makes black people distinct from white people is that all black people honor a heritage that is distinctly African. In addition to being not actually true (a large and growing number of black people are, in fact, hispanic) the cultural background of American blacks is ENTIRELY distinct from the cultural background of actual immigrants who deliberately moved to America FROM Africa; that is three distinct cultural groupings that have essentially nothing in common WHATSOEVER except for their skin color; if you want to come up with a single flag that represents them all, it's this:

the thought that Ethiopa's colors are somehow more representative of all than the pan-African colors takes more mental flexibility than I can summon at this moment.

Why? Ethiopia is an actual country in Africa with a huge amount of political influence and is in many ways the fulcrum of the Pan-African movement. Does it take that much imagination to believe that actual living Africans are capable of doing things without American help?

 

[Horatio Parker]

I've only heard of the black, green and red. Seems like an American flag attempting to include AAs should be representative of AAs….

Two things:

1) "African American" is a bullshit term implying that the thing that makes black people distinct from white people is that all black people honor a heritage that is distinctly African. In addition to being not actually true (a large and growing number of black people are, in fact, hispanic) the cultural background of American blacks is ENTIRELY distinct from the cultural background of actual immigrants who deliberately moved to America FROM Africa; that is three distinct cultural groupings that have essentially nothing in common WHATSOEVER except for their skin color; if you want to come up with a single flag that represents them all, it's this:

the thought that Ethiopa's colors are somehow more representative of all than the pan-African colors takes more mental flexibility than I can summon at this moment.

Why? Ethiopia is an actual country in Africa with a huge amount of political influence and is in many ways the fulcrum of the Pan-African movement. Does it take that much imagination to believe that actual living Africans are capable of doing things without American help?

I don't understand why an American flag should be more relevant to Ethiopia or Africa than African Americans. Why should a flag be based on a country instead of an American black liberation movement?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sountherners should be allowed to be southerners just like Germans are allowed to be Germans.

OKAY!

Then we can treat Southerners who fly the Confederate flag just like we treat Germans who fly swastica flags.

Fun fact I didn't know until yesterday. The swastika flag is banned by many places in the EU, so when the Neonazi's demonstrate they can't use that flag. Their preferred substitute? Try and guess...

I thought they had a modified three fork Swastika.

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Someone on another board suggested a different compromise: having South Carolina fly the final flag of the Confederate Army, the white one, on the grounds of their State capitol. That way they could honor their southern heritage while avoiding the appearance of upholding the worst aspects of it.

Or maybe the French flag in that case.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't understand why an American flag should be more relevant to Ethiopia or Africa than African Americans.

How about the fact that a significant number of black people in America are actually FROM Africa?

Why should a flag be based on a country instead of an American black liberation movement?

Why should a flag be based on anything at all?

 

[Horatio Parker]

How about the fact that a significant number of black people in America are actually FROM Africa?

Why should a flag be based on a country instead of an American black liberation movement?

Why should a flag be based on anything at all?

So, because AAs originally came from African, African flag colors are more representative of AAs than their own American traditions.

Your other statement isn't worth addressing. Why have flags at all? Why discuss it?



Two non-answers.

 

[arkirk]

How about the fact that a significant number of black people in America are actually FROM Africa?



Why should a flag be based on anything at all?

So, because AAs originally came from African, African flag colors are more representative of AAs than their own American traditions.

Your other statement isn't worth addressing. Why have flags at all? Why discuss it?



Two non-answers.

Whatever flag design you want, it can come to represent about anything at all. The south should not have a special flag because it fomented a war to maintain slavery. The best situation is just seeing that flag gone. Now for new ones including our glorious national flag which actually is older...haven't we already had too much killing and dying in the name of that damned thing too? When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

I think they'll say that it was because of our silly decision to live on a planet that can't dodge giant meteors.

 

[arkirk]

When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

I think they'll say that it was because of our silly decision to live on a planet that can't dodge giant meteors.

The real problem here: We can't bet on this because there is no way to collect on the bet regardless of who is right.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think they'll say that it was because of our silly decision to live on a planet that can't dodge giant meteors.

The real problem here: We can't bet on this because there is no way to collect on the bet regardless of who is right.

Well, just assume that I'm right and get me my $50 by the end of the day or I'll start adding points.

 

[Horatio Parker]

So, because AAs originally came from African, African flag colors are more representative of AAs than their own American traditions.

Your other statement isn't worth addressing. Why have flags at all? Why discuss it?



Two non-answers.

Whatever flag design you want, it can come to represent about anything at all. The south should not have a special flag because it fomented a war to maintain slavery. The best situation is just seeing that flag gone. Now for new ones including our glorious national flag which actually is older...haven't we already had too much killing and dying in the name of that damned thing too? When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

I'm curious about the resistance to the traditional red, green and black. Sure, it could be anything, who am I to say, but, still, what makes an African national flag more relevant to African Americans than colors from AA tradition? I'm not getting any answers to that, and I find that curious.

 

[ksen]

Guys, Africa isn't a nation.

hth

 

[EricK]

Whatever flag design you want, it can come to represent about anything at all. The south should not have a special flag because it fomented a war to maintain slavery. The best situation is just seeing that flag gone. Now for new ones including our glorious national flag which actually is older...haven't we already had too much killing and dying in the name of that damned thing too? When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

I'm curious about the resistance to the traditional red, green and black. Sure, it could be anything, who am I to say, but, still, what makes an African national flag more relevant to African Americans than colors from AA tradition? I'm not getting any answers to that, and I find that curious.

Didn't the guy who did the shooting have a couple of African flags on his top in some of the pictures of him. Southern African ones if I recall. So I don't think African flags are necessarily the answer here either.

 

[arkirk]

The real problem here: We can't bet on this because there is no way to collect on the bet regardless of who is right.

Well, just assume that I'm right and get me my $50 by the end of the day or I'll start adding points.

Fat chance! You do really play a mean game of pinball. Admit it! We've got a whole flock of narcissistic politicians who mainly want to be significant for good or ill...just to be significant. Last week on PBS we had a special on Hitler's Mega Weapons. No sane person would pursue what whole countries spent their blood and ytreasure on in things like the Atlantic Wall. It was amazing that things as silly as white (aryan) supremacy could be taken to such extremes, but that is what we saw happening. I will accept a $25 prepayment on your $50 debt any time now. I am kinder than you and will not add points, but I would like you to start paying now.

 

[Rhea]

look, y'all - the nusouth is done with that crap. it's history. still, i'd like to see MLK's face on the other side of Stone Mountain, but that would cost a lot. instead we get a street car that goes to the terminally boring king center. my southern heritages includes the Trail of Tears, Gone with the Wind, Roots, the Civil War, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, colllard greens and corn bread, a place where the dirt is red clay, cross burnings and church bombings and freedom marches, the dirty south and OutKast, sweet tea and fried okra, the buford highway farmers market, etc etc.

when i was a kid, my family was openly racist. now my 81 yr old dad's best friend is a country black man - mr. willie (it would take hours to explain how we use honorifics) gives me dad barbeque, my dad gives him collards and watermelons. yes, watermelons, goddammit - the best you'll ever taste, i sell them on the side of the road for $3. wanna see my card?


I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRIMES OF MY ANCESTORS - bring that shit up again and i'll turn it on you and you ain't gone like it, i promise you that. germans get to be german, wtf don't i get to be southern? and, more to the point, i don't have time for that crap. i love being southern and i'm not even remotely racist. southern culture is NOT a white thing - it's a southern thang, y'all wouldn't understand.

Both of my husband's grandfathers fought in WWII.

For the Germans.

To honor their lives and German Culture (English is my husband's second language), I can fly the Swastika and everyone'll know I'm just enjoying the German heritage... right?

After all, his sister married a Jew, so it's all good, right? Swastikas from the front porch just make EVERYONE think we're honoring a rich heritage.


Ooooooooorrrrrr,

We could leave out the ONE SYMBOL that has no real meaning outside of hate and cruelty and just wear our lederhosen and drink lots of beer and be equally German.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How about the fact that a significant number of black people in America are actually FROM Africa?



Why should a flag be based on anything at all?

So, because AAs originally came from African, African flag colors are more representative of AAs than their own American traditions.

WHAT American traditions? An Ethiopian immigrant honors an Ethiopian heritage and -- wait for it -- ETHIOPIAN traditions. Why should he adopt the traditions of a country whose government is actually opposed to pan-Africanism, whose African-descended citizens are largely ambivalent to pan-Africanism, and whose most prominent black political figures are agnostic at best about the current trends in the Pan-African movement?

That would be like Communist Party of Beijing going to Albuquerque looking for advice on a new political slogan.

Your other statement isn't worth addressing. Why have flags at all?

A flag is a symbol to rally around and a simple visual cue to direct people's attention to a more sophisticated concept that need not be explained verbally every time it is brought up. It doesn't need to be BASED on anything meaningful other than the consensus of the people who are using it as their symbol.

The Anonymous logo, for example:

Doesn't have a whole lot of deeper meaning beyond being itself recognizable for the concept it visually portrays. The globe in the background and the olive branches are really just stylizations.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Whatever flag design you want, it can come to represent about anything at all. The south should not have a special flag because it fomented a war to maintain slavery. The best situation is just seeing that flag gone. Now for new ones including our glorious national flag which actually is older...haven't we already had too much killing and dying in the name of that damned thing too? When it comes time to do the post mortem on mankind, they will have to say that man's tendency to coalesce around a piece of cloth on a pole and kill under it has a lot to do with having to say bye bye to mankind.

I'm curious about the resistance to the traditional red, green and black. Sure, it could be anything, who am I to say, but, still, what makes an African national flag more relevant to African Americans than colors from AA tradition? I'm not getting any answers to that, and I find that curious.

I gave you an answer: because Pan-Africanism is a social movement that started IN AFRICA and has its political center in Ethiopia and Uganda. American blacks generally don't give a shit about Pan-Africanism, mainly because they're not actually IN Africa, do not truthfully consider themselves to be FROM Africa, and do not know or care what is happening in Africa enough internalize spiritual or political unity with actual Africans.

Let me put this more simply for you: Pan-Africanism is an AFRICAN thing, not an American thing.

Anticipating your objections, let me be clear on this: Almost the ENTIRETY of English-language material on Pan-Africanism emphasizes the importance of Afrocentric political movements during the Civil Rights movement, particularly UNIA and its splinter groups. The leaders of these organizations have been trying to claim a leadership role in the black community for decades, largely without success, and are slightly less influential in the western hemisphere -- or anywhere else for that matter -- than the Black Panthers.

The current political momentum of Pan Africanism is encompassed mostly by the African Union. For a more detailed history of Pan-Africanism and the origins of the African Union, you would find yourself reading a considerable amount of material in Arabic and/or French; to make a long story short, "The African Union" is both the primary sponsor and logical conclusion of Pan-Africanism.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I'm curious about the resistance to the traditional red, green and black. Sure, it could be anything, who am I to say, but, still, what makes an African national flag more relevant to African Americans than colors from AA tradition? I'm not getting any answers to that, and I find that curious.

I gave you an answer: because Pan-Africanism is a social movement that started IN AFRICA and has its political center in Ethiopia and Uganda. American blacks generally don't give a shit about Pan-Africanism, mainly because they're not actually IN Africa, do not truthfully consider themselves to be FROM Africa, and do not know or care what is happening in Africa enough internalize spiritual or political unity with actual Africans.

Let me put this more simply for you: Pan-Africanism is an AFRICAN thing, not an American thing.

Anticipating your objections, let me be clear on this: Almost the ENTIRETY of English-language material on Pan-Africanism emphasizes the importance of Afrocentric political movements during the Civil Rights movement, particularly UNIA and its splinter groups. The leaders of these organizations have been trying to claim a leadership role in the black community for decades, largely without success, and are slightly less influential in the western hemisphere -- or anywhere else for that matter -- than the Black Panthers.

The current political momentum of Pan Africanism is encompassed mostly by the African Union. For a more detailed history of Pan-Africanism and the origins of the African Union, you would find yourself reading a considerable amount of material in Arabic and/or French; to make a long story short, "The African Union" is both the primary sponsor and logical conclusion of Pan-Africanism.

It seemed to me the logical choice due to its age and ubiquity. Granted that American pan-Africanists had little influence during the civil rights era, and pan-Africa is ultimately about Africa, but was not their flag more successful than the movement? And could it not be said that it now stands for more than simply UNIA and pan-Africa?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It seemed to me the logical choice due to its age and ubiquity. Granted that American pan-Africanists had little influence during the civil rights era, and pan-Africa is ultimately about Africa, but was not their flag more successful than the movement?

Yes, it's fair to say their flag was a lot more successful than the movement it represents, for whatever that's worth. On the other hand, the tendency to replace the London/New York based colors is largely a reaction to Pan-Africanists' prevailing belief that westerners have way too much influence in a political movement in which they have no stake, no investment, and no meaningful commitment. That's why Ethiopia and other more stable African nations are increasingly pushing themselves into leadership positions in the African Union, which in turn comes with the subtle (and sometimes unsubtle) replacement of symbols and imagery.

And could it not be said that it now stands for more than simply UNIA and pan-Africa?

It could be, but I don't think that's true anymore, assuming that it ever was.

Put mildly, African unity movements have been heading in a different direction for quite a while. They're aiming more for formalized political agreements backed by the U.N. and depending less and less on the fickle support of the U.S. government alone. This doesn't always work, and they don't always get anything done this way, but what's happening more and more is that the AU is trying to assert its own position as the broker of progress for African nations rather than just a vessel for the collective good will of black activists around the world.

Their various attempts to change their colors is pretty much a metaphor for that: they don't want to be seen as a solidarity movement, they want to be seen as an international unity movement on par with the E.U. or NATO.

 

[Deepak]

At least it's better than the seal of Whitesboro NY

 

[Horatio Parker]

Yes, it's fair to say their flag was a lot more successful than the movement it represents, for whatever that's worth. On the other hand, the tendency to replace the London/New York based colors is largely a reaction to Pan-Africanists' prevailing belief that westerners have way too much influence in a political movement in which they have no stake, no investment, and no meaningful commitment. That's why Ethiopia and other more stable African nations are increasingly pushing themselves into leadership positions in the African Union, which in turn comes with the subtle (and sometimes unsubtle) replacement of symbols and imagery.

And could it not be said that it now stands for more than simply UNIA and pan-Africa?

It could be, but I don't think that's true anymore, assuming that it ever was.

Put mildly, African unity movements have been heading in a different direction for quite a while. They're aiming more for formalized political agreements backed by the U.N. and depending less and less on the fickle support of the U.S. government alone. This doesn't always work, and they don't always get anything done this way, but what's happening more and more is that the AU is trying to assert its own position as the broker of progress for African nations rather than just a vessel for the collective good will of black activists around the world.

Their various attempts to change their colors is pretty much a metaphor for that: they don't want to be seen as a solidarity movement, they want to be seen as an international unity movement on par with the E.U. or NATO.

So the flag is more popular than the movement, but it only represents the movement. Uh hunh.