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Mythology is a reality

And when you are able to demonstrate that we are all AI's programmed to act a certain way within a sandbox/universe simulation, presumably for the purposes of research and/or entertainment by some supernatural entity outside this sandbox, I will be happy to listen to you. Until that time I will continue to hold that spacetime is real and exists independently of our ability to recognize its existence.

I wasn't actually positing a simulation - I think you've missed too much of that discussion, which has more or less moved here: http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?8145-The-science-against-metaphysical-materialism&p=286169&viewfull=1#post286169
 
Do you know in what way? My understanding is that the concept of the unconscious is generally accepted.

Three things:

1) No, it's not. The unconscious is unconscious. The fact that we can figure out how we are weird still doesn't give us any power to do anything about it. So as a psychological tool it's not particularly useful.
2) Freud's claim that he understood why we are compelled to such and such isn't based on anything much. It's clever. I'll grant him that. But it is unfalsifiable.
3) It's at best a gross simplification. The more we learn about the brain the more complicated it comes across. We're not entirely sure what the consciousness does. So that makes statements about the unconscious and subconscious a bit premature.

Today we know that dreams are just noise. They mean nothing.

How do they know that though?

Um... research. We used to think there was some sort of pattern to it. The available research seems to indicate that it's completely random. Freud was probably projecting :) Today sleep and dream research is more geared toward trying to figure out why we do it rather than trying to analyse the symbolism of it.

The track record of psychoanalysis for curing mental problems is not good. It's worthless. Which was both Jung's and Freud's major focus in their practices.

I think that's debatable and depends on what one means by "cure". For example CBT (which grew more out of the Adlerian school) has shown some good clinic results in alleviating anxiety and depression but the results seem to be restricted to the short term.

CBT is not psychoanalysis.

Psychoanalysis and analytical psychology are more about coming to terms with unconscious material over the long term (often in excess of 10 years), so it's less about "curing" and more about cultivating something of a more harmonious relationship between the conscious and unconscious. Patients will often still suffer symptoms such as depression or anxiety but their relatedness to these seems to change to one where it is less of a problem. The idea is that the conscious ego attains some autonomy from unconscious influences rather than a "cure", since anxiety and depression can be in many respects normal human responses to certain situations. It's more about ego autonomy, self-acceptance and emotional relatedness than the removal of symptoms.

Complete nonsense. There is no support for that the things a person or therapist says is the reason for a behaviour is the real reason. Here's an example. People who are psychologically dysfunctional as adults and were sexually molested as children tend to blame their mental problems on the sexual molestation. But here's the kicker. People who weren't molested as children are crazy in exact the same proportions. It's actually a weak link between childhood trauma and later mental problems. Sexual fetishism is another excellent example. Back in the day we used to link various trauma to developing an interest in pervy sex. Now we've studied it. It's seems just random. Some people, for no apparent reason, get turned on by this. And since it (sexual transgressive behaviour) goes in families we suspect that it's biological somehow.

To me psychonalysis is just as much about trying to justify mental problems as it is trying to actually learn stuff. Most importantly it's all unfalsifiable. There's no way a psychoanalyst knows if they're just talking shit.

BTW, I'm very specific about what psychoanalysis is. I've tried all manner of therapeutic methods. Psychoanalysis was not impressive. Impressively expensive. I'll give them that.

I think you're being overly kind to Jung. I do think he was a New Agey type. What I take from Jung is that if we look hard enough we can see patterns and meanings in anything. The constant bane of postmodernism. On that topic, I see Jung mostly as a philosophic stepping stone of postmodernism. There's other more interesting philosophers who came after him. An interesting historical figure. But not one that is relevant any longer. His moment of glory was in the 70'ies. Today, not so much.

I think that the fact that Jung's work is internally consistent and logical is in itself a cause for caution. There's lots of theology that similarly is internally logic, yet complete bullshit. Logic = garbage in, garbage out.

Yeah, difficult to argue that I agree. I think Jung's basic theories hold water - complex theory, archetypes, synchronicity (perhaps a fore-runner to confirmation bias), typology, projection etc, but the further down he rabbit hole one goes the more of an art form and less of a science it becomes.

That's what I love about Jung and where I think Jung belongs. It's art. Just like poetry he says things that resonate within us emotionally. That is powerful and valuable. Still can't teach us much. And we should be very weary about his ideas being passed off as science or Truth.
 
Three things:

1) No, it's not. The unconscious is unconscious. The fact that we can figure out how we are weird still doesn't give us any power to do anything about it. So as a psychological tool it's not particularly useful.
2) Freud's claim that he understood why we are compelled to such and such isn't based on anything much. It's clever. I'll grant him that. But it is unfalsifiable.
3) It's at best a gross simplification. The more we learn about the brain the more complicated it comes across. We're not entirely sure what the consciousness does. So that makes statements about the unconscious and subconscious a bit premature.

Hmm...ok, see below..


Um... research. We used to think there was some sort of pattern to it. The available research seems to indicate that it's completely random. Freud was probably projecting :) Today sleep and dream research is more geared toward trying to figure out why we do it rather than trying to analyse the symbolism of it.

Dream interpretation is very esoteric I agree so I'm not sure though that modern researchers have the available "symbolic understanding" to really make that assessment. Would you be able to point to any studies perhaps?

CBT is not psychoanalysis.

Yeah I know, I was just using it as a juxtaposition. However, it did grow out of the Adlerian school (Individual Psychology) which was based on many of Freud's ideas.

Psychoanalysis and analytical psychology are more about coming to terms with unconscious material over the long term (often in excess of 10 years), so it's less about "curing" and more about cultivating something of a more harmonious relationship between the conscious and unconscious. Patients will often still suffer symptoms such as depression or anxiety but their relatedness to these seems to change to one where it is less of a problem. The idea is that the conscious ego attains some autonomy from unconscious influences rather than a "cure", since anxiety and depression can be in many respects normal human responses to certain situations. It's more about ego autonomy, self-acceptance and emotional relatedness than the removal of symptoms.

Complete nonsense. There is no support for that the things a person or therapist says is the reason for a behaviour is the real reason. Here's an example. People who are psychologically dysfunctional as adults and were sexually molested as children tend to blame their mental problems on the sexual molestation. But here's the kicker. People who weren't molested as children are crazy in exact the same proportions. It's actually a weak link between childhood trauma and later mental problems. Sexual fetishism is another excellent example. Back in the day we used to link various trauma to developing an interest in pervy sex. Now we've studied it. It's seems just random. Some people, for no apparent reason, get turned on by this. And since it (sexual transgressive behaviour) goes in families we suspect that it's biological somehow.

To me psychonalysis is just as much about trying to justify mental problems as it is trying to actually learn stuff. Most importantly it's all unfalsifiable. There's no way a psychoanalyst knows if they're just talking shit.

BTW, I'm very specific about what psychoanalysis is. I've tried all manner of therapeutic methods. Psychoanalysis was not impressive. Impressively expensive. I'll give them that.

Here I pretty much agree with you, but you have to also look at psychoanalysis within the broader context of psychodynamics. Freud was more of a pioneer - he was about excavating the unconscious more than anything. Adler, one of his students was the one who went about actually trying to cure pathologies. Jung on the other hand was more of a romantic and felt that meaning and purpose was what gave people some autonomy from their unconscious (or perhaps even just a "buy-in" to their "fate", a self-acceptance perhaps). You have to look at the whole of psychodynamics. They can be effective but they take considerable time and considerable expense. Chances are things are going to get much much worse before they get better when you're going to excavate your unconscious.

There's an interesting story about Freud. A very large percentage of his early patients eventually revealed some kind of childhood sexual molestation. The numbers were way too high and Freud was apparently very distraught about the whole thing. That's when he came up with his theories around symbolic association - so instead of being actual events of molestation Freud began to see them as symbolic fantasies describing a psychic reality. More recently researchers have inferred that the numbers were real and Freud fantasized the whole thing as an ego defense. Jung on the other hand, despite having been a student of Freud came to the conclusion that we are not born tabula rasa, that we have some kind of inheritance and disposition towards developmental events. Though he often used mystical and poetic language, through a post-Jungian lens his theories still stand up pretty well.

"man brings with him at birth the ground-plan of his nature" - Collected Works Vol 4, pg 728

Overall though I would tend to agree with what you say - If you're looking for a quick alleviation of psychological symptoms, as we in this modern day have become so accustomed to taking a pill for our symptoms, then psychoanalysis is probably not the route to go. It's the difference between taking a pill for your cholesterol or working out 5 days a week and eating a decent diet. Personally psychodynamics have hugely improved my overall psychic well-being (as part of a larger process for me) and at times things became a hell of a lot worse (what Jung called "confrontation with the Shadow" which was pretty much his term for Freud's unconscious). I've worked with quite a number of people and very few seem to even fully enter into that stage never mind actually pass through it. But we've also moved on since the early days of analysis and if it still has any value in the future it will be demonstrated by the post-Jungians, Lacanians and so on.
 
Dream interpretation is very esoteric I agree so I'm not sure though that modern researchers have the available "symbolic understanding" to really make that assessment. Would you be able to point to any studies perhaps?

Sure. Heard a great interview with a sleep researcher/neurologist not that long ago. They touched on this. I'll see if I can dig it up.
 
Dream interpretation is very esoteric I agree so I'm not sure though that modern researchers have the available "symbolic understanding" to really make that assessment. Would you be able to point to any studies perhaps?

Sure. Heard a great interview with a sleep researcher/neurologist not that long ago. They touched on this. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Thanks, I would appreciate that. I "slept" on our discussion because I think you brought up some very valid points.

I don't think that neuroscience has the capability to prove or disprove Jungian or Freudian theory at this stage - granted the burden of proof would be on Freud or Jung if we are to make a strictly scientific case for their theories, but in the absence of that for the time being I think there is a strong rational and empirical case to support at least some of their theories. If we take complex theory for example, which is the entire basis of Jungian theory (originally he was going to call his psychology "complex psychology") we can find both an empirical and rational basis. If I examine my behaviours it becomes self-evident that there are distinct sub-personalities within my psychology, which I might call "father complex", "lover complex", "wounded child complex", "rebellious teenager" complex and so forth. I don't think these are arbitrary classifications although they might appear that way in my foray into complex theory. I think there is at least evidence that this kind of categorization into distinct feeling-toned sub-personalities happens at the unconscious level. Dissociative Identity Disorder is a good example of this unconscious categorization into complexes, albeit a pathological form of such.

Moreover I think there a strong utilitarian value in complex theory. As I said previously about Dawkins argument about the irrational function producing a psychic "imago" - ie: the snarling tiger that we immediately identify as a threat. We have acIf we treat parts of our own psychology as sub-personalities we are able to engage with them not just rationally and logically but also from the perspective of emotional intelligence and relatedness at the level of "imago" (as an "irrational image"). We can immediately see whether someone is irritable or happy or loving if we engage in emotional relatedness whereas if we restricted ourselves exclusively to the rational function it would be completely out of it's depth - we would have to painful analyze the features on their face, their "body language", their vocal tone and so forth to come to any sort of conclusion to approach emotional relatedness from a rational perspective. It's just not the right tool for the job. And so in dealing with one's own psyche as complexes (sub-personalities) we find exactly the same utility. I'm able to engage with say a "traumatized child complex" emotively, I'm able diaglogue with it imaginatively and attend to it's needs, show it love as I would with an external child.

Here it's a little more difficult to justify rationally, given that we have to ask whether it's merely "imaginative fantasy" or whether I am truly engaging and changing some part of my psychology and I think that is something that can only be demonstrated through the process itself by asking whether one comes to a greater sense of fulfillment through engaging with one's complexes. It has to be results based otherwise it's useless. Personally and from the people I've worked with, the answer is definitely yes. The best argument I can think of in the absence of that subjective evidence is in asking the question whether the imaginative faculty is merely "random fantasy" or whether it must necessarily somehow be structured by the individual's psychology. Well how could it not be structured by the individual's psychology? Even if the images were merely random fantasy, my response to them would be telling of my psychology just as my response to the "image" of a domineering person in my personal space is telling about my psychology. But empirically at least, and in my work with individuals it becomes clear that there is an archetypal pattern. For the most part people will almost always come to identify something of an "internal parental critic complex" and a "wounded child complex". I think merely examining your own internal dialogue and your source of suffering that becomes pretty self-evident and lends some credibility to Freud's Superego and Id.

I think in the gap that exists between hard science and psychology, the best we can do at the moment is find a reasonable cause for exploration. I don't see my psychic well-being (and that of those around me) as a worthy sacrifice for the seemingly noble task of obtaining hard objective facts.
 
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Yeah but that's a different definition and context from the context I described in the OP. Sure people can twist or alter narratives to manipulate others. That's precisely the very reason propaganda works because we believe the political reality of it even if it is a "fiction".

Do you understand what is meant by 'history is another country'? you can't go there - it's lost and done. there exists evidence of the past, traces we find, but we cannot know it. It's all a story - 'history' is the common story, or rather, some common elements we agree on. the point in understanding this is to free yourself. your history has always been different from everyone else's - the manic compulsion to make it 'true' is the problem. in my history, the Monte Verde were pygmies who came to the americas by dreamwalking and were subsequently exterminated by the bering peoples....but they are still my spiritual ancestors. here's my mythology
 
When I was studying literature, a myth was a story used to embody a truth, and I hardly doubt that our minds are so designed that they find it easier to embody reality in narratives. But, as Pilate asked, 'What is truth?' The fact that an opinion is embodied in a story no way makes it true - we are still faced with the same old struggle as ever, myths or no myths!
 
When I was studying literature, a myth was a story used to embody a truth, and I hardly doubt that our minds are so designed that they find it easier to embody reality in narratives. But, as Pilate asked, 'What is truth?' The fact that an opinion is embodied in a story no way makes it true - we are still faced with the same old struggle as ever, myths or no myths!

Agreed. I was not suggesting that myth points to the form of an actual "object" in the world (it could but generally doesn't). Rather I'm suggesting that myth is archetypal like mathematics. We don't find an actual "7" in the world and yet we all understand what "7" means and how to apply it to actual objects in the world. In the same way, mythologically speaking we don't find an actual "Baba Yaga" in the world, but we understand that we can apply the archetype or narrative to actual people or relationships.
 
When I was studying literature, a myth was a story used to embody a truth, and I hardly doubt that our minds are so designed that they find it easier to embody reality in narratives. But, as Pilate asked, 'What is truth?' The fact that an opinion is embodied in a story no way makes it true - we are still faced with the same old struggle as ever, myths or no myths!

Agreed. I was not suggesting that myth points to the form of an actual "object" in the world (it could but generally doesn't). Rather I'm suggesting that myth is archetypal like mathematics. We don't find an actual "7" in the world and yet we all understand what "7" means and how to apply it to actual objects in the world. In the same way, mythologically speaking we don't find an actual "Baba Yaga" in the world, but we understand that we can apply the archetype or narrative to actual people or relationships.

We have to learn what 7 means. It is not "built in". As is "baba yaga". These are no good examples of archetypes, if there is any at all...
 
Modernprimive2; I think the OP suffers from generality. As in there's no other perspective from where to see the world. I think you'd have been better served if you'd expressed yourself in terms of "it is possible to see mythology as reality". With the drawback of not being particularly bold, and therefore not getting much response. But the response you would get would be more sensible.
 
Modernprimive2; I think the OP suffers from generality. As in there's no other perspective from where to see the world. I think you'd have been better served if you'd expressed yourself in terms of "it is possible to see mythology as reality". With the drawback of not being particularly bold, and therefore not getting much response. But the response you would get would be more sensible.

Good point. Did you manage to find that link for me?
 
Modernprimive2; I think the OP suffers from generality. As in there's no other perspective from where to see the world. I think you'd have been better served if you'd expressed yourself in terms of "it is possible to see mythology as reality". With the drawback of not being particularly bold, and therefore not getting much response. But the response you would get would be more sensible.

Good point. Did you manage to find that link for me?

Sorry. Completely gone from my mind. I'm sorry. I will
 
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