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Neoliberalism's Dark Path to Fascism

Selective Pressure:

The question for me looking forward is when the combination of the disenfranchised and the disassociated together will, at some point, overcome the financial power of the disparity of concentrated wealth. By 'disenfranchised' I mean those groups of people who have been discriminated against and left out of the process for any number of reasons. 'Disassociated' means those who are motivated by conscious rather than wealth. There has been a melding of these two factions happening slowly over the years. As the population continues to grow these faction grow along with it while, due to the reletively small number of the wealthy theirs remain more or less stagnant.

As religion continues to decline (many of the religious rank and file being part of the 'disassociated') I'd expect that group to become part of the overall production of this newer group.

There is little doubt in my mind these numbers are going to swell to an insurmountable degree. I see it today. It's just a matter of when it will have a hugely significant impact. This last election has given me more hope as the diversity of the elected has grown and a bit of a larger commitment to progressive ideas are valued more.

The species is going to go about its business based on numbers motivated by the selection process, and since the financial wealthy are isolating themselves more, there isn't much to select from there. Add to it their strict dedication to tradition and bigotry, it becomes a losing proposition to my mind.
 
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I think we should be motivated to convert to renewable energy ASAP, but the problem is that the money isn't there yet.
Where would it eventually come from? Money mines? Grow on rich people?

The US Federal Govt already has all the dollars it needs. It issues them with keystrokes (as does the UK govt with pounds, the Australian govt with Australian dollars, etc..). There are serious economic debates to be had about the effects of govt spending but the idea that there just isn't enough money is bollocks. Think about it...

Or at least that all the money that can be possibly wrung out of fossils fuel hasn't been made yet. That's a really, really bad aspect of capitalism, but it isn't a necessary result of it.
More like it. Hence oil interests spend a lot of money scaremongering about public spending. As do private "healthcare insurers" and money lenders of one sort or another.
 
Have you been reading the thread?? This thread has digressed to progressive vs Marxism. Under Marxism, all businesses are universal or you go to the gulag! The amount of Americans who favor Marxism takeover are pretty small.

There are no gulags with Marxism.

That was Stalinism which was just a brutal dictatorship despite the names it called itself.

Marx had nothing to do with it and could not be found in it.

Well, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm continually told that a Marxist system couldn't exist within a capitalist system. If true, how will it get started? Will people with different beliefs be tolerated?
 
Have you been reading the thread?? This thread has digressed to progressive vs Marxism. Under Marxism, all businesses are universal or you go to the gulag! The amount of Americans who favor Marxism takeover are pretty small.

There are no gulags with Marxism.

That was Stalinism which was just a brutal dictatorship despite the names it called itself.

Marx had nothing to do with it and could not be found in it.

Well, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm continually told that a Marxist system couldn't exist within a capitalist system. If true, how will it get started? Will people with different beliefs be tolerated?

If you're interested in understanding Marxism, then read up on it. Otherwise, you appear to be arguing just to argue.
 
Well, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm continually told that a Marxist system couldn't exist within a capitalist system. If true, how will it get started? Will people with different beliefs be tolerated?

If you're interested in understanding Marxism, then read up on it. Otherwise, you appear to be arguing just to argue.

I actually have read "up on it". I think that it's a failed concept. Marx believed that developed countries with industrialization and capitalism, would have the greatest economic inequalities and would evolve into Marxist societies on their own. Yes, Marx was against gulags and secret police. But Marx underestimated the power of mixed systems to create excess wealth that could be taxed to increase safety net and lift up people. There's no chance that western Europe, the US, and Canada will go Marxist. Zero.
 
Well, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm continually told that a Marxist system couldn't exist within a capitalist system. If true, how will it get started? Will people with different beliefs be tolerated?

If you're interested in understanding Marxism, then read up on it. Otherwise, you appear to be arguing just to argue.

I actually have read "up on it". I think that it's a failed concept. Marx believed that developed countries with industrialization and capitalism, would have the greatest economic inequalities and would evolve into Marxist societies on their own. Yes, Marx was against gulags and secret police. But Marx underestimated the power of mixed systems to create excess wealth that could be taxed to increase safety net and lift up people.
Yes, I think he did underestimate it.

There's no chance that western Europe, the US, and Canada will go Marxist. Zero.
There's zero chance of "going Marxist" in that sense, because there's no such "Marxism" to go to.

But the idea that automation will eventually make advanced economies based on wage-labour with for-profit production unsustainable still looks like a fair bet. It's happening now.
 
Have you been reading the thread?? This thread has digressed to progressive vs Marxism. Under Marxism, all businesses are universal or you go to the gulag! The amount of Americans who favor Marxism takeover are pretty small.

There are no gulags with Marxism.

That was Stalinism which was just a brutal dictatorship despite the names it called itself.

Marx had nothing to do with it and could not be found in it.
Oh, well, that's okay then. The next time some party asks us to put them in power so they can abolish private ownership of the means of production, we just need to remember to ask them whether they're planning to implement Marxism or Stalinism. As long as they promise us what they'll give us is Marxism we'll be fine.
 
A few months ago, before I started devouring Marxist literature like it was steak, I was more or less on the same page as you about the Swedish system and similar 'social democratic' governments. ...

Once you get the idea behind Marx's labor theory of value, even if you dispute the specific calculations or favor one latter-day refinement over another, you can't look at any economy where workers are paid wages by capitalists outside of that context anymore.
Sort of the way once you get the idea behind Christianity you can't be an atheist any more? Lots of ideologies' adherents are convinced their worldview is so obviously correct that anyone who hasn't accepted it hasn't understood it. But that's simply failure to put themselves in unbelievers' shoes. What makes your ideology any different from all those other "obviously true" ones, apart from the circumstance that it's yours?

What reason do you have to think the Labor Theory of Value is correct? Which of its claims are empirically falsifiable? What evidence do you have that the quantities it posits actually exist?
 
What if they threw a Neoliberal Fascist Takeover Party and no one showed up?

What kind of strange political philosophy is this?

• Everyone condemns it as the ultimate fascist tyranny.

• Virtually no one anywhere admits to believing in it or being a member of it, nor can anyone be named as a member of it or quoted as a proponent of this political school.

• Yet millions of critics hysterically squawk that it has single-handedly led the world economy to destruction for 50 years or more.

How could such a political group be in power and be running the world, yet which no one belongs to, and which is condemned by almost everyone? What's going on?

OK, granted, it's possible to search out 2 or 3 or 4 oddballs claiming to be "Neoliberal" philosophically, but they are very reluctant to admit it and have no resemblance to anything being said by the paranoids. They are complete nobodies, with no power whatever and no connection to anything of influence anywhere. How can there be so many paranoids who think this tiny half dozen or so nobodies are running the global economy and leading the U.S. and the world into a fascist takeover?
 
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A few months ago, before I started devouring Marxist literature like it was steak, I was more or less on the same page as you about the Swedish system and similar 'social democratic' governments. ...

Once you get the idea behind Marx's labor theory of value, even if you dispute the specific calculations or favor one latter-day refinement over another, you can't look at any economy where workers are paid wages by capitalists outside of that context anymore.
Sort of the way once you get the idea behind Christianity you can't be an atheist any more? Lots of ideologies' adherents are convinced their worldview is so obviously correct that anyone who hasn't accepted it hasn't understood it. But that's simply failure to put themselves in unbelievers' shoes. What makes your ideology any different from all those other "obviously true" ones, apart from the circumstance that it's yours?
I don't know. I'm just sharing my experience, not trying to convert anyone.

What reason do you have to think the Labor Theory of Value is correct? Which of its claims are empirically falsifiable? What evidence do you have that the quantities it posits actually exist?
Again, I'll just share my experience.

No theory about what is valuable is empirical, and no quantity of anything (apart from discreet instances of a thing) can be shown to exist, so that objection is a non-starter. But abstract ideas can be handy nonetheless. Ethics is one example of empirically vacuous thought.

I was impressed by the labor theory of value because it accounted for why and how things are taken as valuable in a way that seems consistent with scientific reasoning, specifically the idea that entropy always tends to decrease on large enough scales. Basically, nothing in the universe is useful to us unless we make it useful by working on it, transforming it from an arbitrary arrangement to one that suits our needs. To do that, we need to surrender bits of ourselves, literally speaking, by expending energy and time, of which our supply is finite on a biological level. Since nobody wants to waste their energy and time, it makes sense to consider labor as the currency of value. Everything valuable needs to be created by working on something with no value, and work is a measure of energy and time directed through the temporary, vulnerable bodies of organisms. As far as abstract concepts go, this one appears to be the most grounded in reality to me. The quantity that is expended (as energy and time we channel through ourselves, taking a chunk of our longevity with them) is universally valued, unlike money or property.

In capitalist production, one party is giving up something very important (most of their lives) while another party decides how it is used. Under any theory of value except labor, this can be excused; the second party has taken on financial risk, has accumulated the ability to manipulate other people through force, has persuaded consumers to value something that they can provide, has attracted investors who see an opportunity for profit, etc. But only one theory captures the shared interests of the large majority of humans, who do not like work being imposed on them and resist it every day. Meanwhile, the minority tries to impose as much work as possible, on and off the job, for as little pay as they can get away with. All explanations come to an end somewhere, as Wittgenstein said, but some do at a more plausible and coherent point than others. That's probably a matter of opinion to a large extent, but for me this dichotomy of imposed work and resistance to it describes everything that happens in capitalist production, and the labor theory of value explains why this has remained the fundamental antagonism for so long.
 
Have you been reading the thread?? This thread has digressed to progressive vs Marxism. Under Marxism, all businesses are universal or you go to the gulag! The amount of Americans who favor Marxism takeover are pretty small.

There are no gulags with Marxism.

That was Stalinism which was just a brutal dictatorship despite the names it called itself.

Marx had nothing to do with it and could not be found in it.

Well, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm continually told that a Marxist system couldn't exist within a capitalist system. If true, how will it get started? Will people with different beliefs be tolerated?

And it can't exist without the capitalist system because Marx perfectly well knew it couldn't build those means of production--it's inherently a philosophy of theft and will only work in a steady state situation, not a situation with substantial progress.
 
The Soviet Union stole nothing from capitalists.

The nation was destroyed by the Germans.

And they advanced very quickly. They were the first in space. They had great medical research and technologies. They had first rate physicists and engineers.

The US was a lot richer than the Soviet Union after WWII because so little US territory was involved. No US cities were destroyed.

The US pumped a lot of wealth into weapons and the Soviets could not keep up since WWII put them so far behind.

I'm not a supporter of the Soviet system which was just a different system of authoritarian control, like capitalism.

But the idea that it needed capitalists to create a modern society is laughable.
 
The Soviet Union stole nothing from capitalists.

The nation was destroyed by the Germans.

And they advanced very quickly. They were the first in space. They had great medical research and technologies. They had first rate physicists and engineers.

The US was a lot richer than the Soviet Union after WWII because so little US territory was involved. No US cities were destroyed.

The US pumped a lot of wealth into weapons and the Soviets could not keep up since WWII put them so far behind.

I'm not a supporter of the Soviet system which was just a different system of authoritarian control, like capitalism.

But the idea that it needed capitalists to create a modern society is laughable.

You need capitalists to build a modern society. There are far more comparisons than just the USSR and the US. Why couldn't USSR keep up with Japan after WW2? Why couldn't eastern German keep up with Western Germany? Why couldn't North Korea keep up with South Korea? It's pretty simple, if you crush incentive - economy can't keep up. I hear all the time that capitalist companies don't innovate, they just copy what the government discovers. I always get a great laugh at that! That's all that capitalist companies do. From the time I wake up in the morning until I go to bed, I'm constantly thinking of how we can innovate to get better. What can we do to get better. In my company, we practice what is called lean manufacturing. One of the central tenants is "constant improvement". I and my employees constantly think of how to get better. And they are rewarded with a share of the profits as we get better. But in a non-capitalist system, there is no incentive to innovate or get better.
 
The Soviet Union stole nothing from capitalists.

The nation was destroyed by the Germans.

And they advanced very quickly. They were the first in space. They had great medical research and technologies. They had first rate physicists and engineers.

The US was a lot richer than the Soviet Union after WWII because so little US territory was involved. No US cities were destroyed.

The US pumped a lot of wealth into weapons and the Soviets could not keep up since WWII put them so far behind.

I'm not a supporter of the Soviet system which was just a different system of authoritarian control, like capitalism.

But the idea that it needed capitalists to create a modern society is laughable.

You need capitalists to build a modern society.

Total delusion.

Capitalists do not build anything.

They merely control what others build.

Capitalism is only a system of power to ensure an unequal distribution of wealth. It is nothing else.

Capitalists are the most superfluous.
 
Great thread and article. Your point about labels and the political spectrum needs to be repeated more often. The right and the left are not just relative terms, there is an actual left that is usually not part of the conversation at all because of how far right we have moved, especially in the United States but also globally.

Fair point. But would you not agree that people who hold your beliefs are a pretty small segment of the population? IMO, nothing wrong with that. I like having differing opinions. But there is also a very large segment of voters like me who are pro business, pro jobs, fiscally conservative, socially liberal, pro environment, pro science, and who want a larger safety net. We need a place also... And it damn sure isn't on the right.
This is a kind of a weird way to say this. I am very pro business in lots of ways but I am also very pro limiting mega wealth. Those don't seem even a little bit contradictory to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, piketty is worth reading.
 
The Soviet Union stole nothing from capitalists.

The nation was destroyed by the Germans.

And they advanced very quickly. They were the first in space. They had great medical research and technologies. They had first rate physicists and engineers.

The US was a lot richer than the Soviet Union after WWII because so little US territory was involved. No US cities were destroyed.

The US pumped a lot of wealth into weapons and the Soviets could not keep up since WWII put them so far behind.

I'm not a supporter of the Soviet system which was just a different system of authoritarian control, like capitalism.

But the idea that it needed capitalists to create a modern society is laughable.

And they went Marxist only at the end of WWII????

Just because much of what they stole was later destroyed doesn't mean they didn't steal it.

As for research--why is so much of their stuff stolen? KGB spies were always looking to obtain western technology. We didn't care about Russian technology other than to know what they were doing militarily.

Or consider something the CIA pulled on them: They knew the KGB was after a certain pipeline control system. The CIA made sure they got their hands on it. It was only long after that Moscow figured out the system they had stolen was booby-trapped. Big problems for them as now they don't know what else they "stole" that might have actually been booby-trapped plants.
 
The Soviet Union stole nothing from capitalists.

The nation was destroyed by the Germans.

And they advanced very quickly. They were the first in space. They had great medical research and technologies. They had first rate physicists and engineers.

The US was a lot richer than the Soviet Union after WWII because so little US territory was involved. No US cities were destroyed.

The US pumped a lot of wealth into weapons and the Soviets could not keep up since WWII put them so far behind.

I'm not a supporter of the Soviet system which was just a different system of authoritarian control, like capitalism.

But the idea that it needed capitalists to create a modern society is laughable.

And they went Marxist only at the end of WWII????

Just because much of what they stole was later destroyed doesn't mean they didn't steal it.

What did they steal?

A bunch of primitive technology?

That was all destroyed so whatever they built after that they built themselves from scratch.

And from scratch they were the first in space.
 
What reason do you have to think the Labor Theory of Value is correct? Which of its claims are empirically falsifiable? What evidence do you have that the quantities it posits actually exist?
Again, I'll just share my experience.

No theory about what is valuable is empirical, and no quantity of anything (apart from discreet instances of a thing) can be shown to exist, so that objection is a non-starter.
If your theory is unfalsifiable, why is criticizing it for being unfalsifiable a non-starter? To me it seems devastating. In any event, quantities of all sorts of things can be shown to exist -- energy, momentum, current, pressure, yada yada -- and if "what is valuable" isn't one of them, then that's a reason to stop trying to do economic reasoning by making claims about what is valuable. We've known how to do economics without value claims for about a hundred and fifty years now. The Marxists are as outdated on this point as creationists.

But abstract ideas can be handy nonetheless. Ethics is one example of empirically vacuous thought.

I was impressed by the labor theory of value because it accounted for why and how things are taken as valuable in a way that seems consistent with scientific reasoning,
That appears to contradict your statement that no theory about what is valuable is empirical.

specifically the idea that entropy always tends to decrease on large enough scales.
Entropy always tends to increase on large enough scales. (And in this case, "large enough scales" means any scale larger than dust particles being randomly buffeted by atoms in a fluid.)

Basically, nothing in the universe is useful to us unless we make it useful by working on it, transforming it from an arbitrary arrangement to one that suits our needs.
That is a wildly counterintuitive claim. Why do you believe it? The universe is filled with all manner of things that are useful to us that we didn't have to work on to make useful. The North Star is useful to us and we haven't transformed it at all. We did nothing to the air to make it breathable. (Unless you count undoing things we'd previously done to the air to make it less breathable. ;) ) Cave men took shelter in caves without first having to dig them. Fruit trees grow wild in nature, and they make fruits we can eat without first working on them.

To do that, we need to surrender bits of ourselves, literally speaking, by expending energy and time, of which our supply is finite on a biological level. Since nobody wants to waste their energy and time, it makes sense to consider labor as the currency of value.
That doesn't follow. In the first place, whose labor defines the currency unit? Some people's labor makes stuff a lot more useful than other people's labor makes it. Ever heard of Gresham's Law? "Bad money drives out good." If a highly useful and a meagerly useful currency are treated as equal, the highly useful will disappear from circulation.

And in the second place, just because labor makes things more useful and we rely on that to obtain useful stuff, that doesn't mean labor is the only thing that makes things more useful. All sorts of inputs are helpful in making bits of the universe more useful to us. If you just declare as if by divine fiat that you're only going to count one of them and you're going to define all the rest as zero contributors, it's no surprise when you're able to "prove" from that premise that somebody's "exploiting" providers of the input you defined in advance as magically special. And if you want to believe in your own deduction, it certainly helps to have an unfalsifiable theory to derive it from.

Everything valuable needs to be created by working on something with no value, and work is a measure of energy and time directed through the temporary, vulnerable bodies of organisms. As far as abstract concepts go, this one appears to be the most grounded in reality to me.
But not everything valuable needs to be created by working on something with no value, if by "valuable" we mean that real live people value it. The caveman valued his cave.

Worse, you're deceiving yourself, by shoehorning a mental zero-sum model into a phenomenon that isn't zero sum. You're treating "value" as if it were an incompressible fluid like water, if you want a cubic foot of which where you're going then you'll have to take a cubic foot with you -- as opposed to a compressible fluid like air, which people routinely take two cubic feet of with them down into the deep and then comfortably breathe two hundred cubic feet out of their scuba tanks. You're motivating your "value" theory with "make it useful" and "suits our needs". Well, usefulness and needs don't follow the accounting rules of incompressible fluids. We constantly get more usefulness and need satisfaction out of our stuff than we put in, because the same thing is more useful to one person than to another. When what I have is more useful to you than to me, and what you have is more useful to me than to you, we can swap, and thereby increase the usefulness of the stuff without transforming it.

The Labor Theory of Value is an objective value theory. But the degree to which people value stuff is subjective. Things aren't valuable full stop; they're trash to this person and treasure to that person. No objective value theory can correctly represent that phenomenon. A theory that ascribes a one-size-fits-all value to everything will inevitably imply that in every trade either somebody got short-changed or else people traded equal for equal and therefore got no more usefulness from what they received than from what they gave up. But that would imply they have no reason to trade in the first place. But actual trading makes both parties better off, which is why people do it. So Marx's Value=Labor theory makes exactly the same fatal error as Ayn Rand's Value=Gold theory.

In capitalist production, one party is giving up something very important (most of their lives) while another party decides how it is used. Under any theory of value except labor, this can be excused; ... But only one theory captures the shared interests of the large majority of humans, who do not like work being imposed on them and resist it every day.
So, based on unfalsifiable metaphysics, a metaphorical analogy to your impressions of science, and an artificial accounting procedure that inherently can't ever correspond to people's actual evaluations of usefulness, you propose to rerun an experiment -- abolition of capitalism -- that has already been run many times, and that experience teaches us always results in a police state and usually results in a famine. And you think this is in the shared interests of the large majority of humans?!?

Meanwhile, the minority tries to impose as much work as possible, on and off the job, for as little pay as they can get away with.
And at the same time, the workers are trying to impose as much pay as possible for as little work as they can get away with. Employees and employers are competitors as well as cooperators. They're competing for larger shares of the overall usefulness increase that comes from trading, while simultaneously cooperating to bring about a usefulness increase that neither could create alone.

How that synergistic product is split depends on negotiation, which means it depends on who's in the stronger negotiating position. So if owners are getting too much and employees are getting too little, the solution is to strengthen the employees' negotiating position, not to do away with the trade that's what creates a usefulness increase worth competing for in the first place. Which is to say, unionize.

There's a reason governments that collectivize the means of production always prohibit independent trade unions. If government power fell into the hands of snake oil salesmen they'd outlaw real doctors. Trade unionists who still think socialists are their friends are delusional. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
Great thread and article. Your point about labels and the political spectrum needs to be repeated more often. The right and the left are not just relative terms, there is an actual left that is usually not part of the conversation at all because of how far right we have moved, especially in the United States but also globally.

Fair point. But would you not agree that people who hold your beliefs are a pretty small segment of the population? IMO, nothing wrong with that. I like having differing opinions. But there is also a very large segment of voters like me who are pro business, pro jobs, fiscally conservative, socially liberal, pro environment, pro science, and who want a larger safety net. We need a place also... And it damn sure isn't on the right.
This is a kind of a weird way to say this. I am very pro business in lots of ways but I am also very pro limiting mega wealth. Those don't seem even a little bit contradictory to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, piketty is worth reading.

Well, the democratic party has to be a big tent if we want to win. Anyway, you and I just have a different mentality. You want to limit mega wealth. You see the mega wealthy as hurting the poor. I want to lift people up. I want to increase the safety net, incent people to climb up, economic development. The majority of Bill Gates's wealth is the value of his Microsoft stock. Stock does not equal cash. If you wanted to liquidate his stock and give it to the poor, the value would plumment immediately. But if you tax it at a reasonable rate, and then use the taxes to fund programs that increase opportunity, everyone wins. Now if that makes me a Nazi to some people - fine with me.
 
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