New "Affirmative Action" nonsense

[Trausti]

Well it looks like her efforts for admission to UM based on race rather than merit is doomed to fail: http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-upholds-mich-affirmative-action-ban-141424582--politics.html

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well it looks like her efforts for admission to UM based on race rather than merit is doomed to fail: http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-upholds-mich-affirmative-action-ban-141424582--politics.html

Well, all she needs to do is get a bunch of people to hang around U of M with guns and the law will be ignored because of the love of freedom and America.

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[fromderinside]

Time to start suing on the basis that indices used by universities for admissions are not valid.

Why should one index ones standing in HS class be dismissed while other indexes relating to existing workforce success be deemed valid. The first applies to all classes of persons while the latter applies to those who have parents just like them.

A shitty way to choose future leaders don't you think?

 

[Trausti]

Time to start suing on the basis that indices used by universities for admissions are not valid.

Why should one index ones standing in HS class be dismissed while other indexes relating to existing workforce success be deemed valid. The first applies to all classes of persons while the latter applies to those who have parents just like them.

A shitty way to choose future leaders don't you think?

Well, if you're serious about that, it is not a matter for the courts. That is a policy decision for the legislature. It is not the place for judges to be writing university admission standards.

 

[doubtingt]

how many Hispanic students do you think apply for higher education in a given year?
How indicative of their stories is your story?

In terms of getting special treatment and admissions just because of his ethnicity, resulting in unjust mistreatment of other students who worked harder and overcame more obstacles? His story is quite common and a inherent aspect of AA admission policies. Even worse, many of those other stories end in the student failing out of college because they got into one via AA that they were not intellectually equipt to handle. This is a major cause for the college drop out rate for hispanics being 20% higher than the drop out rate for whites, despite getting many forms of extra aid, assistance, and support to help them graduate that whites do not receive.

Most Hispanic applicants are not born with a "silver spoon in their mouth", but neither are most white applicants. Hispanics are, on average, more likely to have suffered economic hardships on their way to college, but many many white applicants suffer such hardships and many of them worse than the average Hispanic applicant. About 35% of White kids in the US are from homes with household incomes below the median Hispanic household income. Thus, pick a random Hispanic applicant and a random white applicant and 1 in 3 times the white kids will have come from family with lower income. Yet, a white kid born into a lower income family but who works his ass off to get into a school of his choice will sometimes not get in because a kid with less hardships and who didn't work as hard and has worse credentials takes his seat based upon skin color. Based upon the statistics, we can be sure this is happening every year at every school that uses AA to influence its admissions decisions in any significant way. Are there Hispanic and Black kids not getting in somewhere despite being more qualified, just because someone else got in due to white skin? Yes, and every halfway decent person says this is immoral bigotry that should not be tolerated, which is how they also feel about AA.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, if you're serious about that, it is not a matter for the courts. That is a policy decision for the legislature. It is not the place for judges to be writing university admission standards.

I don't think it's the place of the legislature either. It's the job of the university administration to write the admission standards to their institution. Those standards, however, need to be in line with the law.

 

[Trausti]

I don't think it's the place of the legislature either. It's the job of the university administration to write the admission standards to their institution. Those standards, however, need to be in line with the law.

Well, agreed. Not the courts. If people felt strongly enough they could contact their state representative. Otherwise, leave it to the university so long it is in line with the law (like a voter-approved constitutional amendment eschewing race).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As far as I can tell race had absolutely no basis for her denial.

According to the first link I posted, she has 3.5 GPA where 3.82 is the average GPA for UM freshmen.

You said she had mediocre grades in the OP. She has a 3.5 GPA? That doesn't seem mediocre. That is an average B+. Not perfect but far from mediocre, unless it can be shown her classes were easy, something you did not do. You seemed to be quite judgemental against her, but you don't seem to have the facts. A mediocre ACT score isn't necessarily the end of the world for a college application. Being in National Honor Society isn't exactly a slackers accomplishment (though can be helped with grade inflation in schools).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, agreed. Not the courts. If people felt strongly enough they could contact their state representative. Otherwise, leave it to the university so long it is in line with the law (like a voter-approved constitutional amendment eschewing race).

Ya, if the jurisdiction they're in wants to apply rules for how businesses within that jurisdiction need to operate, then any internal policies of those businesses need to comply with those rules. For the most part, however, who does or does not get into a university is a matter for the university to decide.

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As far as I can tell race had absolutely no basis for her denial.
You said she had mediocre grades in the OP. She has a 3.5 GPA? That doesn't seem mediocre. That is an average B+. Not perfect but far from mediocre, unless it can be shown her classes were easy, something you did not do. You seemed to be quite judgemental against her, but you don't seem to have the facts. A mediocre ACT score isn't necessarily the end of the world for a college application. Being in National Honor Society isn't exactly a slackers accomplishment (though can be helped with grade inflation in schools).

For admission to one of the top universities on the planet, a B+ average is actually pretty fucking mediocre.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For admission to one of the top universities on the planet, a B+ average is actually pretty fucking mediocre.

I thought we were talking about Michigan.

 

[J842P]

how many Hispanic students do you think apply for higher education in a given year?
How indicative of their stories is your story?

In terms of getting special treatment and admissions just because of his ethnicity, resulting in unjust mistreatment of other students who worked harder and overcame more obstacles? His story is quite common and a inherent aspect of AA admission policies. Even worse, many of those other stories end in the student failing out of college because they got into one via AA that they were not intellectually equipt to handle. This is a major cause for the college drop out rate for hispanics being 20% higher than the drop out rate for whites, despite getting many forms of extra aid, assistance, and support to help them graduate that whites do not receive.

Most Hispanic applicants are not born with a "silver spoon in their mouth", but neither are most white applicants. Hispanics are, on average, more likely to have suffered economic hardships on their way to college, but many many white applicants suffer such hardships and many of them worse than the average Hispanic applicant. About 35% of White kids in the US are from homes with household incomes below the median Hispanic household income. Thus, pick a random Hispanic applicant and a random white applicant and 1 in 3 times the white kids will have come from family with lower income. Yet, a white kid born into a lower income family but who works his ass off to get into a school of his choice will sometimes not get in because a kid with less hardships and who didn't work as hard and has worse credentials takes his seat based upon skin color. Based upon the statistics, we can be sure this is happening every year at every school that uses AA to influence its admissions decisions in any significant way. Are there Hispanic and Black kids not getting in somewhere despite being more qualified, just because someone else got in due to white skin? Yes, and every halfway decent person says this is immoral bigotry that should not be tolerated, which is how they also feel about AA.

Hint: don't frame it as whites suffering discrimination. Frame it around other minorities, like Asians. Apparently, no one cares about whites. Because, you know, they are evil.

 

[Derec]

Well it looks like her efforts for admission to UM based on race rather than merit is doomed to fail: http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-upholds-mich-affirmative-action-ban-141424582--politics.html

Good news! The appeals court decision was a farce anyway as the "burden" placed on AA supporters to repeal the ban is no more "extraordinary" than the burden the AA opponents had in enacting it.

This is good especially since it is a 6-2 decision and not partisan 5-4 and not only the swing vote Kennedy but also liberal Breyer joined with the majority.
However, Sonia Sotomayor proved to be just as big a misstep for Obama as I feared after her handling of the New Haven firefighter promotion case. She is a racial preferences zealot, writing 58 pages in her dissent! Also disappointed by Ginsburg, whom I have held in much better regard than Sotomayor.

 

[Derec]

As far as I can tell race had absolutely no basis for her denial.

You would be right.

You said she had mediocre grades in the OP. She has a 3.5 GPA? That doesn't seem mediocre. That is an average B+.

I am not talking of high school population in general but by UM standards. UM is a very selective school that rejects almost two thirds of its applicants and has an average GPA of 3.8.

Not perfect but far from mediocre, unless it can be shown her classes were easy, something you did not do.

I do not know if her classes were easy but her university of choice is hard.

You seemed to be quite judgemental against her, but you don't seem to have the facts.

I explained all the facts in several posts. I

A mediocre ACT score isn't necessarily the end of the world for a college application.

Well her score is mediocre overall, but outright abysmal when compared to UM standards. Sure, even that could be overcome with say a 4.0 GPA but both her score and grades were subpar. Again, by UM standards. That is not to say she is not college material but there are plenty of other universities in Michigan she is welcome to apply to (and I hope she did because it's past application deadline now).

Being in National Honor Society isn't exactly a slackers accomplishment (though can be helped with grade inflation in schools).

Aren't these honor societies vastly overrated anyway?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You would be right.

You said she had mediocre grades in the OP. She has a 3.5 GPA? That doesn't seem mediocre. That is an average B+.

I am not talking of high school population in general but by UM standards.

No you didn't. You used very loose language and were trying to paint her as being entirely unfit for admission to the University of Michigan and that her even wanting to go there was a joke. The reality appears that she was above average at her school and in National Honor Society.

UM is a very selective school that rejects almost two thirds of its applicants and has an average GPA of 3.8.

That may very well be true. I suggest you think a bit more before posting if you are forming your claims in a much tighter scope that your lazy language was suggesting.

Not perfect but far from mediocre, unless it can be shown her classes were easy, something you did not do.

I do not know if her classes were easy but her university of choice is hard.

I thought we were talking about Michigan.

A mediocre ACT score isn't necessarily the end of the world for a college application.

Well her score is mediocre overall, but outright abysmal when compared to UM standards.

Abysmal? No, not true. She may not make the cut, but they are not abysmal. You do realize what hyperbole is, right? To help reinforce the definition, your classification of her grades for getting into Michigan as being abysmal is a good example of hyperbole.

Sure, even that could be overcome with say a 4.0 GPA but both her score and grades were subpar. Again, by UM standards.

He grades were not good enough for admissions to UofM should be enough. Terms that like subpar, abysmal are really doing nothing but trying to exaggerate her lack of qualifications to make this very black and white, when it seems to be more of a shade of gray.

That is not to say she is not college material but there are plenty of other universities in Michigan she is welcome to apply to (and I hope she did because it's past application deadline now).

Like you give a fuck about that "little punk".

Being in National Honor Society isn't exactly a slackers accomplishment (though can be helped with grade inflation in schools).

Aren't these honor societies vastly overrated anyway?

They can be. I remember my cousin graduating in a class with what appeared to be way too many people in NHS. But in my graduating class, I'd say only one member didn't belong. Of course, you have established no doubt for the veracity of her being in NHS.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

He grades were not good enough for admissions to UofM should be enough. Terms that like subpar, abysmal are really doing nothing but trying to exaggerate her lack of qualifications to make this very black and white, when it seems to be more of a shade of gray.

But this actually makes it very black and white and not at all gray. She lacked the qualifications to go to U of M and that made her a subpar candidate in relation to the candidates who got accepted. Given that her lack of qualifications is the entire reason that she didn't get in and it wasn't in any way due to any of the racial bullshit that she made up, shining a bright focus on the fact of her subpar status is the reasonable thing to do. It's saying that she's wrong about being a victim of racial discrimination and this thing right here is why she's not a student there and since it constitutes the entirety of the argument being made, let's emphasize it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

He grades were not good enough for admissions to UofM should be enough. Terms that like subpar, abysmal are really doing nothing but trying to exaggerate her lack of qualifications to make this very black and white, when it seems to be more of a shade of gray.

But this actually makes it very black and white and not at all gray. She lacked the qualifications to go to U of M and that made her a subpar candidate in relation to the candidates who got accepted. Given that her lack of qualifications is the entire reason that she didn't get in and it wasn't in any way due to any of the racial bullshit that she made up, shining a bright focus on the fact of her subpar status is the reasonable thing to do. It's saying that she's wrong about being a victim of racial discrimination and this thing right here is why she's not a student there and since it constitutes the entirety of the argument being made, let's emphasize it.

Emphasize? The OP reads like she is a fucking idiot. The reality is that she did well in high school, but not well enough for admission to Michigan. That she makes this a racial issue is absurd. Perhaps even more absurd because there were probably some blacks that were neck and neck with whites that were chosen over the whites because of an AA tiebreaker.

My big problem is with the OP. It resorts to name calling, claims the student had mediocre grades (though Derec, after the fact is trying to save face on that comment), claims the left thinks that she should be admitted (that doesn't seem to be the case with lefties here), and finishes saying that those support affirmative action are morally bankrupt (because apparently you can't be both for affirmative action and this student not being admitted).

I find both the OP and the student's positions on this repugnant.

 

[Derec]

I find both the OP and the student's positions on this repugnant.

To clarify: if my OP made her out to be an "idiot" it has more to do with her position and behavior (full on megaphone protest over a denial letter) than her grades/scores.
It's not so much "saving face" but clarifying because I am being misunderstood. I see you still have problems with some of my adjectives but so be it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I find both the OP and the student's positions on this repugnant.

To clarify: if my OP made her out to be an "idiot" it has more to do with her position and behavior (full on megaphone protest over a denial letter) than her grades/scores.

That is hard to be able to tell. You claimed her grades were mediocre, called her a "little punk", and denigrated the entire left as being just fine with such racial manipulation. You were ironically the right-wing version of her, pasting those you don't like as being morally bankrupt. Alanis Morrisette would have cried at the irony if she were alive today. What? Oh... only her career is dead?

It's not so much "saving face" but clarifying because I am being misunderstood. I see you still have problems with some of my adjectives but so be it.

Dude... feel free to buy a dictionary and bookmark "context" and "hyperbole".

 

[fromderinside]

Time to start suing on the basis that indices used by universities for admissions are not valid.

Why should one index ones standing in HS class be dismissed while other indexes relating to existing workforce success be deemed valid. The first applies to all classes of persons while the latter applies to those who have parents just like them.

A shitty way to choose future leaders don't you think?

Well, if you're serious about that, it is not a matter for the courts. That is a policy decision for the legislature. It is not the place for judges to be writing university admission standards.

Not my point. I'm talking about suing for not letting a student who very near the top of her class into a state school. The suit will be to contest the validity of criteria used by the university that discriminates against people in a given locality, those in the vicinity of the girl's high school. No race, just location, location, location.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Time to start suing on the basis that indices used by universities for admissions are not valid.

Why should one index ones standing in HS class be dismissed while other indexes relating to existing workforce success be deemed valid. The first applies to all classes of persons while the latter applies to those who have parents just like them.

A shitty way to choose future leaders don't you think?

Well, if you're serious about that, it is not a matter for the courts. That is a policy decision for the legislature. It is not the place for judges to be writing university admission standards.

Not my point. I'm talking about suing for not letting a student who very near the top of her class into a state school.

UofM and OSU are extremely hard to get in these days. The competition is quite fierce. There are other state schools... ones that are quite good.

The suit will be to contest the validity of criteria used by the university that discriminates against people in a given locality, those in the vicinity of the girl's high school. No race, just location, location, location.

The student is claiming the school rejected her for reasons other than her application.