Nudism vs Islam

[steve_bank]

Something I read in a book on Islam.

Mohammed's wife was seen bating in a pond naked. In response to criticism Mohamed replied the sin is in the observer not in nudity itself.

Way back in the early 70s when I had coed roommate's after the novelty wore off nudity was not a big deal. We didn't walk around naked but going to take a shower sans clothes in the hallway was nothing.

In one place there war three couples. Take away the mastery and childish naughtiness and nudity becomes plain as day.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Nudism is on the rise in France and in many other western nations: https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...-naturists-ffn-events-explained-a8461366.html

Nudism is Freedom

Islam is also on the rise, and many other people with such conservative ideology have been flowing into the west, ironically ushered in by well meaning liberals. There are also plenty of Muslims who don't carry much of the conservative baggage tied up into what most think of "Islam" but they get the stereotypes attached to them. Nudists also have a lot of stereotypes about them that don't apply to many of them.

I once witnessed a debate between a Muslim and Nudist, and it was amazing how much each had wrongly presumed about the other.

Do you think these two forces will eventually clash? Or will they oddly ally, both arguing that clothing choice, be that a burka or being naked, should be up to the person wearing or not wearing it?

I don't buy it. Nudism has been big in France for over a hundred years now. The trend has fluctuated up and down all the time. I don't think Islam has anything to do with it. It has more to do with the fashion industry. We're nowhere near the numbers of the 1920'ies or 1960'ies.

No, I don't think they will ever clash because Muslims who move to Europe tend to liberalise and embrace the western ways. The only Muslims who will have a problem with it is ugly Muslims who struggle with getting laid. But nobody cares about them anyway

Move along. Nothing to see here.

 

[jonatha]

Nudism.

(Oh. I thought this was a poll...)

 

[steve_bank]

conservative women's swimwear. Full body.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...argid=kwd-310764831486&ref=pd_sl_5i4ibqhyvx_b

More stylish. Women still are to be covered rater than exposed.

http://www.eastessence.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6omTicGX3QIVm7jACh3y7A-8EAAYASAAEgKp-_D_BwE

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't buy it. Nudism has been big in France for over a hundred years now. The trend has fluctuated up and down all the time. I don't think Islam has anything to do with it. It has more to do with the fashion industry. We're nowhere near the numbers of the 1920'ies or 1960'ies.

I did not write that Islam and Nudism have any causal relationship.

No, I don't think they will ever clash because Muslims who move to Europe tend to liberalise and embrace the western ways. The only Muslims who will have a problem with it is ugly Muslims who struggle with getting laid. But nobody cares about them anyway

I agree that most Muslims who move to the west tend to liberalize, and especially their 2nd generation does, but that isn't all of them. I have seen it in Canada, where we bring in immigrants in high numbers, that yes, we do get some of the overly conservative ones too (even in liberal Canada) and sometimes their kids are the same. When you import people you do import their culture, even if it gets reduced in transit. Ultimately, Nudism and Islam are as diametrically opposed as you can really get on the clothing modesty index. But that being the case, it means that both clash with the mainstream and demand to wear what they want to wear, so maybe they oddly have an ally in each other, at least to a point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As a resident of the sub-tropics, I find it hard to understand why someone in France or Germany would want to walk around nude.

In my part of the world, it makes no sense to wear clothes for about nine months of the year, unless you plan to leave the house - at which point skin cancer becomes a concern.

As far as I can tell, being nude outdoors is either going to risk melanoma, (or at the very least, an uncomfortable sunburn); Or is going to risk hypothermia. There are very few climates where it makes sense to be nude outdoors for any significant fraction of the year.

Yeah, clothing generally serves a very useful protective function. No matter what the law I would expect outdoor nudity to be limited. The melanoma risk can basically be negated by sunscreen, though.

That doesn't mean nudity should be prohibited, though. At home I generally wear very little, it's not unusual to spend more time making myself acceptable to go outside to do something like harvest or run out the trash than the actual task takes.

There are also swimming pools. Swimming attire provides virtually zero protective benefit but does have detriment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As a resident of the sub-tropics, I find it hard to understand why someone in France or Germany would want to walk around nude.

In my part of the world, it makes no sense to wear clothes for about nine months of the year, unless you plan to leave the house - at which point skin cancer becomes a concern.

As far as I can tell, being nude outdoors is either going to risk melanoma, (or at the very least, an uncomfortable sunburn); Or is going to risk hypothermia. There are very few climates where it makes sense to be nude outdoors for any significant fraction of the year.

A lot of nudists don't want to be nude ALL the time. They just want the freedom to be nude when they want to be nude. Having been to a nudist resort, I can tell you personally that is is an incredible sense of freedom, and the sun actually feels amazing on your naked body, so long as you limit the time of exposure to it.

The biggest myth about nudism is that it is inherently sexual. It isn't.

Strange, I've never had any enjoyment of sun on my skin unless I was a bit on the chilly side and liked the warmth. While I've never been to a nudist resort I've traveled with a group that was for the most part quite casual about nudity--things like when we found a place that was safe to swim most of the group went in naked. I will definitely second the non-sexual nature of it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Strange, I've never had any enjoyment of sun on my skin unless I was a bit on the chilly side and liked the warmth.

Have you felt the sun on that particular part where it normally isn't? I found that to feel very different than on my arms and legs etc.

 

[Cycad]

Also, having been to nude beaches, the vast majority of people who want to be nude in public are the type of people who really should put some clothes on. I'm not trying to body shame here, but their bodies are kind of shameful and they should look into covering them in embarrassment.

Hi Tom

Bit curious here.
Do you believe woman who underwent mastectomy should stay away from nude beaches ? Or maybe from beaches altogether ?

Or fat people, cellulitis, psoriasis maybe ?

In Europe we have huge family sauna with sauna, swimming pool spas etc etc. Clothes are banned. Should people with a less than perfect body stay out of there ?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also, having been to nude beaches, the vast majority of people who want to be nude in public are the type of people who really should put some clothes on. I'm not trying to body shame here, but their bodies are kind of shameful and they should look into covering them in embarrassment.

Hi Tom

Bit curious here.
Do you believe woman who underwent mastectomy should stay away from nude beaches ? Or maybe from beaches altogether ?

Or fat people, cellulitis, psoriasis maybe ?

In Europe we have huge family sauna with sauna, swimming pool spas etc etc. Clothes are banned. Should people with a less than perfect body stay out of there ?

I think it's good that people with less than perfect bodies feel relaxed about showing it off. It's good for people's body image in general. If only perfect bodies are visible that twists everybody's self image.

That's one thing I love about Denmark. A lot less body shame here than Sweden. People just get naked and shake what they got. Lovely

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Agreed. Learn to live and let live.

You may not want to see his rolls of fat and stubby schlong, and you may not want to to see a bag over her head, but if neither of them are being forced, it really isnt your right to stop them. And you can stop staring now.

 

[Cycad]

Agreed. Learn to live and let live.

You may not want to see his rolls of fat and stubby schlong, and you may not want to to see a bag over her head, but if neither of them are being forced, it really isnt your right to stop them. And you can stop staring now.

As long as you observe and analyze fellow nudists, you dont belong there. You remain a voyeur till it feels natural.
Like an abstract painting.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Agreed. Learn to live and let live.

You may not want to see his rolls of fat and stubby schlong, and you may not want to to see a bag over her head, but if neither of them are being forced, it really isnt your right to stop them. And you can stop staring now.

As long as you observe and analyze fellow nudists, you dont belong there. You remain a voyeur till it feels natural.
Like an abstract painting.

Yup.

 

[ronburgundy]

Agreed. Learn to live and let live.

You may not want to see his rolls of fat and stubby schlong, and you may not want to to see a bag over her head, but if neither of them are being forced, it really isnt your right to stop them.

That's the difference that makes them non-equivalent and essentially opposites. Wearing a burka is mostly coerced and almost no women would do it naturally, without that coercion. In contrast, most people would go nude occasionally in public, if not for the coercion to not be nude. Just because Muslim women have been threatened with violent punishment since birth into accepting this unnatural, movement and perceptually impeding attire to the point where they now identiry with it as something they "want", doesn't mean it isn't a product of misogynist coercion.
If we exclude right wingers who just hate brown people and non-Christians, the opposition to Burka's is an opposition to authoritarian oppression. In contrast, the opposition to nudism is a form of authoritarian oppression.

 

[steve_bank]

The first time I saw a woman wearing a body bag it was a hot summer day. Essentially a bag with a rectangular slit for eyes. I actually felt sorry for her.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Some of these women give the reason that they don't feel comfortable with men staring at their faces/bodies (kind of ironic given how the outfit they wear draws so many eyes). They say it is about modesty.

I wouldn't demand them to take it off so I can see their face and hair for the same reason that I wouldn't demand a woman in a bikini take her top off so I can see her tits.

If on the other hand, the two of them want to take off these articles of clothing and show these body parts and feel pressured or coerced into not doing so, at least the Muslim lady's coercion doesn't include the law (in the west; outside of France) enforcing it, as the woman who wants to be topless' coercion does.

I say that we should let people wear as much or as little as they please, unless we have actual good reason (security or sanitary) not to, and the onus should be on us to establish that reason.

 

[Derec]

I wouldn't demand them to take it off so I can see their face and hair for the same reason that I wouldn't demand a woman in a bikini take her top off so I can see her tits.

Not even remotely the same. Hiding her face means you can't easily identify that person, and we use look of a face to recognize each other (there is even dedicated circuitry in the brain for that purpose, leading to "face blindness" if damaged). We do not recognize each other by the shape of our nipples (well I might be able to recognize my favorite stripper that way, but that's an exception). We also use facial expressions as cues in social interactions.

And what use is a photo id if you can't see a face? Not to mention that driving with that bag over your head seriously impairs your peripheral vision, which is a hazard.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I wouldn't demand them to take it off so I can see their face and hair for the same reason that I wouldn't demand a woman in a bikini take her top off so I can see her tits.

Not even remotely the same. Hiding her face means you can't easily identify that person, and we use look of a face to recognize each other (there is even dedicated circuitry in the brain for that purpose, leading to "face blindness" if damaged). We do not recognize each other by the shape of our nipples. We also use facial expressions as cues in social interactions.

And what use is a photo id if you can't see a face? Not to mention that driving with that bag over your head seriously impairs your vision, which is a hazard.

Ya, but if a good looking woman is wandering around naked, how are you going to know what her face looks like?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Strange, I've never had any enjoyment of sun on my skin unless I was a bit on the chilly side and liked the warmth.

Have you felt the sun on that particular part where it normally isn't? I found that to feel very different than on my arms and legs etc.

Various parts it normally isn't--and the only good feeling I got from it was warmth as the exposure has always involved water. I have no interest in nudism but I have traveled with a group that was very casual about skin. When we found safe swimming conditions the three oldsters went in in their underwear, the rest of us in nothing at all. When bathing opportunities were limited (this was overland travel across Africa) any reasonable source of water would be used--even roadside pumps that inherently meant someone else was standing right there pumping.

And what are you doing with that part out, anyway? Isn't safe exposure time in your area like a minute or two?

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. Learn to live and let live.

You may not want to see his rolls of fat and stubby schlong, and you may not want to to see a bag over her head, but if neither of them are being forced, it really isnt your right to stop them. And you can stop staring now.

Exactly. We might not like the looks but where's the big state interest that justifies an intrusion into our personal behavior?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hiding her face means you can't easily identify that person

So does driving a car etc. I don't have a problem with not being able to identify people outside of security concerns. I wouldn't allow them to go unmasked in a bank, etc. And yes, I would want some study on the ability to drive wearing those things before I signed on with them being allowed to do that. I do know that its quite fine driving with a ski mask on. I used to skidoo with them on often and had no visibility issues.

We also use facial expressions as cues in social interactions.

That's just her limiting her facial expression communication then. Not so different than a stone faced guy with a poker face who rarely emotes. I don't have a problem with this either.