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Obama - As the world burns, the President fiddles.

maxparrish

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Libertarian-Conservative, Agnostic.
Presidents often leave a specific imprint on foreign policy - the Truman Doctrine, Nixon Doctrine, Good Neighbor Policy, and the New World Order among them. Of recent, critics and more than a few supporters, have been increasingly distressed that Obama's doctrine seems to be that of a 'no world order'; a policy that is incoherent, capricious, and inexplicably indifferent to events beyond American borders. However, what critics think of as indifference or boredom is actually one of three underpinnings of an evolving Obama Doctrine of left wing isolationism.

Isolationism has different motivations. Right-wing isolationism believes that American participation in the international community exposes the Republic to being tainted by venal foreign ideologies and interests. Obama, a left wing isolationist, believes that the rest of the world has been victimized by American pursuit of its own interests. Both brands of isolationism seek a national withdrawal from foreign entanglements and leadership, but for different reasons; the first to protect America from the world, the second to protect the world from America.

If the benign neglect of isolationism is the Obama Doctrine's first underpinning, the second underpinning is that whatever actions are taken in the international arena must be hostile or indifferent to American interests. In fact the very presence of self-interest, in Obama's eyes, discredits and stains any American effort. And while humanitarian intervention does justify intervention, Obama is less willing to use American power in its defense.

And finally there is Obama's peculiar left wing passive-aggressive hostility to American allies, precisely because they supported American interests - in other words, on some level Obama is actually an enemy of his own country.

Consider his pattern:

He "lead from the back" in Libya, ostensibly for (dubious) humanitarian concerns but also because Qaddafi was, if not an ally, at least no longer an enemy of the US who complied with nuclear disarmament. Naturally, Obama thought it appropriate to get rid of one of the few Axis of Evil states that complied with US demands. Qaddafi's sin? Helping American interests. Result? Libya is a violent warring mess.

He pushed an overt American ally, Mubarak's Egypt, toward's the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood (not unlike Kennedy's blunder in giving to Okay to get rid of Diem). Egypt's sin? It was not a liberal democracy and was a close ally. Naturally, Mubarak had to go. The result? A near disaster with the installation of fanatical Islamists hostile to the US, only to be avoided by a recent military coup.

In Syria, an actual enemy of the United States, he dodged any intervention - especially critical in the early stages when their were potential democratic liberal forces to support. Of course, given that Syria was an enemy of Israel and the US, it is not surprising that he did not wish to intervene, even for far more compelling "humanitarian" reasons (far more have died in Syria than in Libya).

In Israel's Gaza war, we had the spectacle of the Arab States and Israel agreeing on a ceasefire plan, and Obamas Secretary of State John Kerry flying off to Paris to work with HAMAS lawyers on a joint HAMAS-US ceasefire proposal, undermining our relationships with BOTH Israel and friendly Arab States (that will teach em). Ironically, the current cease fire is nearly identical to the original Egyptian plan.

Most recently, ISIS has been advancing for two months. Sweeping Iraq cities, taking Mosul and the Mosul Dam. Now ISIS is moving on Lebanon, and have taken four Kurd cities and threatening the Kurd capital Erbil. While both Iraq and the Kurds have been begging for aid for two months, Obama has been nearly deaf. When not golfing and fund raising, he has spent most of this time with obsessive fetish over the composition of Iraqi government, rather than concerning himself with Kurds (a long-time ally and once under US protection) and real American interests in keeping Iraq from falling to terrorists.

His 'barely minimal' aid, announced tonight, is as parsimonious as it is indifferent - some air drops to 40,000 Christian refugees in a mountain enclave, and a willingness to use some air power on behalf of US personnel in Erbil.

Finally we have the Ukraine. Russia is rebuilding the former Soviet Empire, while Obama lectures Putin that "you are not on the side of history". He has refused to ship military aide to the Ukraine, and we await the Ukraine's fall to Russian forces. This is, of course, not in US interests to see the Ukraine fall so Obama's has far less reason to oppose Russian designs.

At this point, in the international arena, Obama is America's worst enemy.


Obama-Nero-fiddle-Rome-burns.jpg
 
You almost had me until you mentioned Ukraine.

Did you know that before Ukraine US had another "Lets piss off Russia" project called Georgia?
McCain&Saakashvili and all that shit, remember that?
Here is an update for you, Saakashvili is under criminal investigation in Georgia for the whole set of actual misdeeds and has not been in Georgia since he had left the office. He is widely hated in Georgia for starting 2008 War with South Ossetia and widely disliked for pissing off Russia.
Funny thing is, new people in power are not that pro-russian, they still want into NATO and EU. But they are not rabid assholes like Saakashvili and new government in Ukraine.
So chances are, you will have another professor with a last name Poroshenko in the future who does not want to visit Ukraine.

Obama has been hugely underwhelming on international arena to say the least, but not for the reasons you mentioned.
 
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None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

It's almost like you are suggesting there are things the government can't or shouldn't do...

When did you start channeling Ron Paul?
 
I agree with Max, Obama does nothing when he should be doing nothing and we should get drawn into wars there is no way to win because leftist Muslim terrorist Benghazi birth certificate tyrant umbrella.
 
Good one Nice Squirrel. :) Personally I think we should have stayed out of Iraq in the first place. As to the current problems, let the Iraqis or the Arab League deal with it.
 
Oh goody... right-wing contemporary revisionist history.
He pushed an overt American ally, Mubarak's Egypt, toward's the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood (not unlike Kennedy's blunder in giving to Okay to get rid of Diem).
Is that how you remember it? Because I remember a US that was rather quiet on the whole issue for quite a while. It wasn't until there were the larger crackdowns on the protest that Sec of State Clinton started speaking about Mubarak. The US clearly didn't want Mubarak to leave power.
In Syria, an actual enemy of the United States, he dodged any intervention - especially critical in the early stages when their were potential democratic liberal forces to support.
This is the same Syria that the US (W Admin) teamed with for terror suspect renditions?
Of course, given that Syria was an enemy of Israel and the US, it is not surprising that he did not wish to intervene, even for far more compelling "humanitarian" reasons (far more have died in Syria than in Libya).
And replace Bashir with who exactly? One of the larger problems with Syria was exactly what we are seeing now. Bashir is still in charge, yet he has lost portions of the nation. You think Obama going in to support loosely affiliated nationalist groups would have led to ISIS not forming, overwhelming a fledgling democracy in Syria and taking over? You'd just be whining that Obama got us involved in yet another failed Middle East occupation.

In Israel's Gaza war, we had the spectacle of the Arab States and Israel agreeing on a ceasefire plan, and Obamas Secretary of State John Kerry flying off to Paris to work with HAMAS lawyers on a joint HAMAS-US ceasefire proposal, undermining our relationships with BOTH Israel and friendly Arab States (that will teach em). Ironically, the current cease fire is nearly identical to the original Egyptian plan.
So when we get involved, Obama is wrong. When we don't get involved, Obama is wrong.

Most recently, ISIS has been advancing for two months.
You misspelled 24 to 26 months.
Sweeping Iraq cities, taking Mosul and the Mosul Dam. Now ISIS is moving on Lebanon, and have taken four Kurd cities and threatening the Kurd capital Erbil.
ISIS has typically only taken Sunni controlled areas with little resistance.
While both Iraq and the Kurds have been begging for aid for two months, Obama has been nearly deaf. When not golfing and fund raising, he has spent most of this time with obsessive fetish over the composition of Iraqi government,
How the Shia government has been dealing with Sunnis is a major reason why Sunnis are letting ISIS waltz into their cities. You are aware of this, right?
...rather than concerning himself with Kurds (a long-time ally and once under US protection) and real American interests in keeping Iraq from falling to terrorists.
Iraq hasn't fallen to terrorists. As you can tell with oil prices, there is no fear of Iraq falling to the terrorists. Obama has been doing this odd thing called "thinking" before acting. Just dropping bombs and killing Iraqi civilians isn't going to help win the peace back in Iraq.

Finally we have the Ukraine. Russia is rebuilding the former Soviet Empire, while Obama lectures Putin that "you are not on the side of history". He has refused to ship military aide to the Ukraine, and we await the Ukraine's fall to Russian forces. This is, of course, not in US interests to see the Ukraine fall so Obama's has far less reason to oppose Russian designs.
What do you want Obama to do? They have launched sanctions over Russian involvement. Are we supposed to start dropping bombs in Russia?

At this point, in the international arena, Obama is America's worst enemy.
Actually 8 years of shit foreign diplomacy and policy under W has hamstrung the Obama Administration. Yeah, I know, "Blame Bush", but W's decisions have had an unbelievably huge impact on global politics and has greatly tarnished America's image and diplomatic strength.
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

Exactly.
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

It's almost like you are suggesting there are things the government can't or shouldn't do...

When did you start channeling Ron Paul?

That isn't Ron Paul who would say that, its everyone else (except for pseudo-libertarians as moronic and simple-minded as Ron Paul).
The rest of us don't think and have never said that the government can and should do everything about everything.
What Ron Paul and his followers who don't grasp what is neccessary for this thing we call "civilization" to exist would say is that "There is virtually nothing that the government can or should do about anything. The rich and powerful should be free to harm people for profits by whatever means they can short of shooting people in the streets, oh wait, even that is fine so long as they feel threatened by a black person."
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

Exactly.

Well then the important thing to remember is every time they claim to be the source of things going well in the world they are outright lying.

And Obama should probably give back that Nobel prize. Since not only did he not bring peace to the world, he is not even slightly capable of doing it.
 
Presidents often leave a specific imprint on foreign policy - the Truman Doctrine, Nixon Doctrine, Good Neighbor Policy, and the New World Order among them. Of recent, critics and more than a few supporters, have been increasingly distressed that Obama's doctrine seems to be that of a 'no world order'; a policy that is incoherent, capricious, and inexplicably indifferent to events beyond American borders. However, what critics think of as indifference or boredom is actually one of three underpinnings of an evolving Obama Doctrine of left wing isolationism.

Isolationism has different motivations. Right-wing isolationism believes that American participation in the international community exposes the Republic to being tainted by venal foreign ideologies and interests. Obama, a left wing isolationist, believes that the rest of the world has been victimized by American pursuit of its own interests. Both brands of isolationism seek a national withdrawal from foreign entanglements and leadership, but for different reasons; the first to protect America from the world, the second to protect the world from America.

If the benign neglect of isolationism is the Obama Doctrine's first underpinning, the second underpinning is that whatever actions are taken in the international arena must be hostile or indifferent to American interests. In fact the very presence of self-interest, in Obama's eyes, discredits and stains any American effort. And while humanitarian intervention does justify intervention, Obama is less willing to use American power in its defense.

And finally there is Obama's peculiar left wing passive-aggressive hostility to American allies, precisely because they supported American interests - in other words, on some level Obama is actually an enemy of his own country.

Consider his pattern:

He "lead from the back" in Libya, ostensibly for (dubious) humanitarian concerns but also because Qaddafi was, if not an ally, at least no longer an enemy of the US who complied with nuclear disarmament. Naturally, Obama thought it appropriate to get rid of one of the few Axis of Evil states that complied with US demands. Qaddafi's sin? Helping American interests. Result? Libya is a violent warring mess.

He pushed an overt American ally, Mubarak's Egypt, toward's the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood (not unlike Kennedy's blunder in giving to Okay to get rid of Diem). Egypt's sin? It was not a liberal democracy and was a close ally. Naturally, Mubarak had to go. The result? A near disaster with the installation of fanatical Islamists hostile to the US, only to be avoided by a recent military coup.

In Syria, an actual enemy of the United States, he dodged any intervention - especially critical in the early stages when their were potential democratic liberal forces to support. Of course, given that Syria was an enemy of Israel and the US, it is not surprising that he did not wish to intervene, even for far more compelling "humanitarian" reasons (far more have died in Syria than in Libya).

In Israel's Gaza war, we had the spectacle of the Arab States and Israel agreeing on a ceasefire plan, and Obamas Secretary of State John Kerry flying off to Paris to work with HAMAS lawyers on a joint HAMAS-US ceasefire proposal, undermining our relationships with BOTH Israel and friendly Arab States (that will teach em). Ironically, the current cease fire is nearly identical to the original Egyptian plan.

Most recently, ISIS has been advancing for two months. Sweeping Iraq cities, taking Mosul and the Mosul Dam. Now ISIS is moving on Lebanon, and have taken four Kurd cities and threatening the Kurd capital Erbil. While both Iraq and the Kurds have been begging for aid for two months, Obama has been nearly deaf. When not golfing and fund raising, he has spent most of this time with obsessive fetish over the composition of Iraqi government, rather than concerning himself with Kurds (a long-time ally and once under US protection) and real American interests in keeping Iraq from falling to terrorists.

His 'barely minimal' aid, announced tonight, is as parsimonious as it is indifferent - some air drops to 40,000 Christian refugees in a mountain enclave, and a willingness to use some air power on behalf of US personnel in Erbil.

Finally we have the Ukraine. Russia is rebuilding the former Soviet Empire, while Obama lectures Putin that "you are not on the side of history". He has refused to ship military aide to the Ukraine, and we await the Ukraine's fall to Russian forces. This is, of course, not in US interests to see the Ukraine fall so Obama's has far less reason to oppose Russian designs.

At this point, in the international arena, Obama is America's worst enemy.


Obama-Nero-fiddle-Rome-burns.jpg

I guess he's following recent tradition.
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

It's almost like you are suggesting there are things the government can't or shouldn't do...

When did you start channeling Ron Paul?
I've been saying this for a long time.

I was one of the minority who didn't go insane after 911 and begin believing we could mold the world to our desires with nothing but force.

That was mainly the right wingers.

The people who fucked up the world real good before Obama became president.

Where do you think ISIS came from? Obama leaving Iraq, or GW invading?
 
Jimmy,

As you failed to address my argument regarding the three principles behind Obama's "doctrine", I won't spend a lot of effort on correction of your fractured narrative of nano quibbling and micro carping events that are well recognized in the popular press. None the less, your most egregious "fict-facts" and "truthies" needs hauled out to your local dumpster.

First, it is widely known that Obama wanted Mubarak out, and that he invited the Muslim banned Brotherhood to participate. For example on Feb 10, 2011:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obama-rejects-mubaraks-assurances/article565907/

Pushing ever harder, Barack Obama rejected as too little and too vague the uncertain assurances in a long, rambling speech by Egyptian strongman Hosni Mubarak.

Missing was a resignation.

"It is not yet clear that this transition is immediate, meaningful or sufficient," the U.S. President said in a blunt statement issued hours after Mr. Mubarak's televised speech enraged thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators who had spent the day in anticipatory celebration expecting an unambiguous resignation from the 82-year-old dictator.

After pushing for his ouster for weeks, Mr. Obama seemed poised to watch Mr. Mubarak take the fall and then was taken aback when it didn't happen.

OR This:

http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/02/04/slapdash-obama-policy-egypt/

Israel and our Arab allies in the region, including Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, think we are making a mistake by pushing Mubarak out right away. They know their region.

And yet, in a remarkably blunt American intrusion into the internal affairs of another country, we have the president of the United States bowing to the mob in the street, trying to force Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak out of power.

The Obama administration has no consistent policy other than to take the temperature in Tahriri Square. And to throw a longtime friend to the wolves. Not that Mubarak isn’t himself the king of the wolves, but he is our ally. And to “avoid violence.” Allies, shmallies.

Here is how our policy started out Sunday. Hillary Clinton suggested Mubarak should stick around and have a “dialogue” about the future.

What we’re trying to do is to help clear the air so that those who remain in power, starting with President Mubarak, with his new vice president, with the new prime minister, will begin a process of reaching out, of creating a dialogue that will bring in peaceful activists and representatives of civil society to, you know, plan a way forward that will meet the legitimate grievances of the Egyptian people.

Monday, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said it’s not our place to figure out who should rule Egypt.

"That is not for our country or our government to determine. I don’t think that people that seek greater freedom are looking for somebody else to pick what and how that change looks like."

On Tuesday, Obama decided that, oops, it is U.S. policy to interfere, telling Mubarak to start getting the Hell out now.

"What is clear — and what I indicated tonight to President Mubarak — is my belief that an orderly transition must be meaningful, it must be peaceful, and it must begin now."


By Thursday, the message to Mubarak had evolved from start getting the Hell out now to GET THE HELL OUT NOW.

From a New York Times article this morning titled, “White House and Egypt Discuss Plan for Mubarak’s Exit.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04diplomacy.html?_r=0

And from that New York Times article: "The proposal also calls for the transitional government to invite members from a broad range of opposition groups, including the banned Muslim Brotherhood, "

Second, I think most folks know that Syria has been long considered as an enemy of the United States interests. They are a member of the Axis of Evil, they are listed by the State Department as a "state sponsor of terrorism", they were developing nuclear weapons (until Israel took action), they harbored insurgents for cross border attacks during the Iraq War of Occupation, they provided safe Haven to Iraqi officials who supported Saddam and refused extradition, and they have actively supported HAMAs and two other terrorist groups. They even assassinated Lebanon's Prime Minister and gave Scud's to Hezbollah. That they agreed, among the 54 nations (including Sweden) who also agreed, to take Al Qeada renditions after 9/11 was for individual reasons unrelated to why the CIA wanted to dump them.

Third, you completely ignore and/or miss the point regarding Libya and Syria. There is nothing inherently wrong about a failed intervention, but it is inherently wrong to intervene where no substantive US interests are at stake (or no dire humanitarian reasons). There was not a valid reason to intervene in Libya or Egypt, but Obama did. There was some VERY SERIOUS reasons to intervene in Syria but Obama did not. Why?

The only nexus I see is that Libya's (and Egypt's) sin was serving US interests, which makes Obama very uncomfortable. However, Obama knew Syria has been an enemy of both the US and Israel, so he chose to sit on his hands and not threaten their rulers. The only 'nexus' I see is Obama's hostility to America and its interests and those who advance them.

Four, as an aside, yes there was an opportunity. Al Qaeda and ISIS were not a part of the initial civil war - of course the results might have been as bad as it is now, but it was no more problematical than Obama's needless intervention in Libya and Egypt (and with a hell of a lot more justification).

Five, yes, part of the problem of the current Iraqi government has been its sectarian policy which cut off political power and benefits to Sunni Arabs - it is also irrelevant to taking action. With or without Sunni participation in the government, Sunni militias have already shown that they are unable to win against ISIS, the few that have engaged ISIS were easily defeated. And with the heads of defeated soliders being on public display, I doubt any Sunni would go against ISIS based on the promise of a cobbled unity government. That recent fetish for democratic purity by Obama is too little and too late.

You seem curiously unaware that Iraqi forces AND the Peshmerga have also been defeated in battle, including the pitched battles that took place over Iraq's oil refinery . No observer has minimized the power or resources of battle hardened ISIS, flush with millions in looted banks and now well stocked by captured artillery, and armored vehicles. And certainly no pinhead analyst would suggest we look at the stock market indexes to measure the prowess or intentions of ISIS (or of Putin's Russia) - I don't even believe you believe it.

Finally, your assurance that Obama is actually thinking might be true, but if so, his thoughts must be on ways to let ISIS win without him being blamed for it. It takes but a gram of imagination to consider actions in both the Ukraine and in Iraq that don't require combat units. Among them:

- Supplying the Ukraine with military essentials (ammunition, equipment, etc.).
- Threatening (and mean it) to deploy the canceled anti-missile system in Poland.
- Air dropping military supplies and equipment to the Kurds, and deploying military trainers to Kurdistan.
- Use American air supremacy to take out a good part of the military equipment of ISIS.

The Kurds have been the most pro-American and thriving Islamic society in the middle east. They have been a long-time ally and repeated victim of genocide. They are more than willing to do the ground fighting, and they are an essential bulwark against the establishment of an Islamic terrorist state. There is NO reason to sacrifice them to ISIS.

So what will Obama do? Most likely sacrifice them to ISIS.
 
The risk is, that after the ISIS debacle is over the Kurdish militias will turn to separatists and start fighting the Shia Iraqi army and it ends up being another civil war. But otherwise I tend to agree with you. USA should definitely make sure that they stick with the Kurdish factions on this.
 
None of this has much to do with the fact that Obama is president.

None of Obama's opponents have offered any advice beyond "bomb them".

The world is a chaotic place. To blame that on Obama is laughable.

This.

Oh goody... right-wing contemporary revisionist history.
Is that how you remember it? Because I remember a US that was rather quiet on the whole issue for quite a while. It wasn't until there were the larger crackdowns on the protest that Sec of State Clinton started speaking about Mubarak. The US clearly didn't want Mubarak to leave power.
In Syria, an actual enemy of the United States, he dodged any intervention - especially critical in the early stages when their were potential democratic liberal forces to support.
This is the same Syria that the US (W Admin) teamed with for terror suspect renditions?
Of course, given that Syria was an enemy of Israel and the US, it is not surprising that he did not wish to intervene, even for far more compelling "humanitarian" reasons (far more have died in Syria than in Libya).
And replace Bashir with who exactly? One of the larger problems with Syria was exactly what we are seeing now. Bashir is still in charge, yet he has lost portions of the nation. You think Obama going in to support loosely affiliated nationalist groups would have led to ISIS not forming, overwhelming a fledgling democracy in Syria and taking over? You'd just be whining that Obama got us involved in yet another failed Middle East occupation.

In Israel's Gaza war, we had the spectacle of the Arab States and Israel agreeing on a ceasefire plan, and Obamas Secretary of State John Kerry flying off to Paris to work with HAMAS lawyers on a joint HAMAS-US ceasefire proposal, undermining our relationships with BOTH Israel and friendly Arab States (that will teach em). Ironically, the current cease fire is nearly identical to the original Egyptian plan.
So when we get involved, Obama is wrong. When we don't get involved, Obama is wrong.

And this.

And this last is all I've been hearing from Obama's critics from day one. No matter what he does, it's wrong and frankly, I'm sick of the "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't" kneejerk reactions of Obama's critics.

We've had 5 years of it and it's old.
 

Well then the important thing to remember is every time they claim to be the source of things going well in the world they are outright lying.
your extremist
And Obama should probably give back that Nobel prize. Since not only did he not bring peace to the world, he is not even slightly capable of doing it.

How exactly is this supported to further the discussion? No rational person, is going to except your extremist example.
Seriously, half the time i can't tell if you suffer from a juvenile need to score fictitious points or if your unbelievably hobbled world view totally prevents you from connecting coherent ideas in sequence. Really.
 
Hey remember when Obama lied to America repeatedly, juxtapositioning Iraq with 9/11 at every turn and saying Iraq was a threat to America and then invaded Iraq... causing the deaths of 100,000+ Iraqis, maiming or killing 10,000 American Soldiers? And for giggles, the funny slide show he put together showing him looking for WMDs under the White House couch?

Or like, remember when the Obama Administration tried to prevent there from being a commission to study what went wrong after the worst terror strike in American history? And even when the commission was put together, refused to allow Obama to testify alone with the Commission?

Or, remember when the Obama Admin was caught wiretapping without warrants from even the FISA court?

Or how about when Obama put a fake reporter in the White House Press Corp (no not a Fox Reporter... someone even faker than that!) to lob one of the dumbest grapefruits to W?

Or when the Press Secretary of the Obama Admin told Americans they should watch what they say, in regards to Bill Maher who lose his late night television show after suggesting that people with the mindset of dying for a cause aren't necessarily cowards.

Or how about when the NSA sniffing program started getting its legs under the Obama Admin when there were reports the NSA had access to all of AT&T internet traffic?

Or when the Obama Administration leaked the identity of a NOC-List CIA agent because the husband of the agent spoke out against the Iraq propaganda?

Seriously, go fuck yourselves! All of hyper-partisans that didn't complain about these egregious violations of the law. And now you pretend to give a fuck about the Constitution, deficit spending, and the nation. Just fuck off. I've had enough!
 
The risk is, that after the ISIS debacle is over the Kurdish militias will turn to separatists and start fighting the Shia Iraqi army and it ends up being another civil war. But otherwise I tend to agree with you. USA should definitely make sure that they stick with the Kurdish factions on this.

Frankly I don't think that is a bad thing. The Kurds have deserved a homeland for a long time, and as far more western oriented Islamic nation it would be of benefit to its people, and to the West.
 
The risk is, that after the ISIS debacle is over the Kurdish militias will turn to separatists and start fighting the Shia Iraqi army and it ends up being another civil war. But otherwise I tend to agree with you. USA should definitely make sure that they stick with the Kurdish factions on this.

Frankly I don't think that is a bad thing. The Kurds have deserved a homeland for a long time, and as far more western oriented Islamic nation it would be of benefit to its people, and to the West.
The civil war that would inevitably happen to create that nation part would be the problem. If USA were to take the Kurdish side, they'd have to disown the Shia side and basically push them to Iran. Not to mention that it would piss off Turkey, a NATO member, as the new Kurdish nation would probably have aspirations to expand to Turkey.

I think US should support the Kurds in gaining more autonomy and whatnot, but Iraq should stick together for now.
 
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