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Obama drags his feet on Keystone XL, again

I have been reading about climate change, and as I understand it 2 degrees is actually incredibly dangerous - arguably we are already at the CO2 limit and should be rapidly going into reverse and reducing CO2 now.

That means leaving the oil sands alone as a starter.

I understand probably all the required tech already exists for a renewable future, we just need to be getting on with it. That requires saying boo to nine out of the ten largest companies on the planet - seven are fossil fuel, two car companies.
 
Derek, you responded to everyone else and I take it you know a lot about pipeline transport and refining. So I will ask my question again: why is it not possible to expand existing pipeline to the current port facilities and refineries in Superior, WI?

The way it works in the US and Canada is pipeline companies propose routes, the government reviews them and approves them if there are no material issues.

Thousands of miles of pipelines have been approved in the past, thousands of miles of pipelines have been proposed and completed during this Keystone debate. Some of these pipelines are in fact alternatives to Keystone XL.

The unique thing about Keystone Xl is not it's environmental impact (thousands of miles of pipeline already exist in the area) but that it became a pet cause of the enviromental movement so there is a political cost to Obama to approve it. Otherwise it's really not a particularly unusual case that would have been routinely approved long ago. People who have been conviced that this particular pipeline is some looming envirnomental calamity as compared to all the other pipelines crisscrossing the US and Canada are what Lenin used to call "useful" idiots.

Since the envirnonmental movement lacks the attention span or energy to fight alternative similar pipelines they are indeed getting built.
 
The way it works in the US and Canada is pipeline companies propose routes, the government reviews them and approves them if there are no material issues.

Thousands of miles of pipelines have been approved in the past, thousands of miles of pipelines have been proposed and completed during this Keystone debate. Some of these pipelines are in fact alternatives to Keystone XL.

The unique thing about Keystone Xl is not it's environmental impact (thousands of miles of pipeline already exist in the area) but that it became a pet cause of the enviromental movement so there is a political cost to Obama to approve it. Otherwise it's really not a particularly unusual case that would have been routinely approved long ago. People who have been conviced that this particular pipeline is some looming envirnomental calamity as compared to all the other pipelines crisscrossing the US and Canada are what Lenin used to call "useful" idiots.

Since the envirnonmental movement lacks the attention span or energy to fight alternative similar pipelines they are indeed getting built.

That doesn't answer my question. You only repeated talking points I already know. I am not asking about the approval process. I am asking why they aren't upgrading an existing petroleum pipeline.
 
The way it works in the US and Canada is pipeline companies propose routes, the government reviews them and approves them if there are no material issues.

Thousands of miles of pipelines have been approved in the past, thousands of miles of pipelines have been proposed and completed during this Keystone debate. Some of these pipelines are in fact alternatives to Keystone XL.
So why add a new pipeline when an alternative route exists?
The unique thing about Keystone Xl is not it's environmental impact (thousands of miles of pipeline already exist in the area) but that it became a pet cause of the enviromental movement so there is a political cost to Obama to approve it.
We keep hearing that there 1000s of pipeline already in the area as if that is not a big deal. It is the additional (or marginal) pipeline that is important - as anyone who has passed ECON 101 knows.
 
That doesn't answer my question. You only repeated talking points I already know. I am not asking about the approval process. I am asking why they aren't upgrading an existing petroleum pipeline.

I don't know what existing line you are talking about. There are hundreds of them. Several have been upgraded and repurposed of late. Due to the shifting landscape of where oil is produced and consumed there is always some project or another getting done.
 
Derec: This pipeline is a matter of trying to impose a regimen of economic profit on a reality that will not support it without harm to human beings, the environment of living things on the surface of the planet, and indeed the very economic system it would support. We are talking here about creating conditions that destroy infrastructure and ecosystems that currently support billions of people, and you glibly carry on with your econotalk, as if it were all there was to living in this world.

The tar sands need to stay where they are. What is so hard to understand about that? You are advocating dosing the world with drought, famine, shrinking forests, polluted waters, and shrinking landmasses. Perhaps you have not considered these things. Perhaps you had better start.
 
I don't know what existing line you are talking about. There are hundreds of them. Several have been upgraded and repurposed of late. Due to the shifting landscape of where oil is produced and consumed there is always some project or another getting done.

Maybe you should read the posts you are responding to? Then you might be able to answer my question instead of giving non-answers like the one above.
 
Maybe you should read the posts you are responding to? Then you might be able to answer my question instead of giving non-answers like the one above.

Well, OK then. Good luck finding someone else to answer your question.
 
There's also the question of how many of those existing pipelines carry tar sands (or whatever intermediate product it is they carry), rather than (possibly) less toxic materials...
 
Also, all of this oil is currently being sent to market right now but it's just being transported by train and blows up a small town every now and again. It's not a question of it not getting shipped if the various proposed pipelines aren't built, it's a question of how safely and cheaply it's getting shipped.
 
There's also the question of how many of those existing pipelines carry tar sands (or whatever intermediate product it is they carry), rather than (possibly) less toxic materials...

Tar sands oil production is unique in that we have gross pollution on both ends of the pipeline. This type of strip mining has already destroyed hundrends of square miles of boreal forests and polluted many aquifers and surface waters to the tune of hundreds of more square miles. There are huge reservoirs of processing waste at the extraction site and there is also a large carbon footprint for the initial process at the site. In fact the energy this process consumes is so massive, nuclear energy (still another pollution) has been considered to provide the energy at the site. It is a marginal energy gain for the amount of pollution created. And that is just at the site. Building a big gulp pipeline for these people gives them the means to expand many times as fast as they have thusfar. The land and water devastation this process leaves behind is extreme and will be a problem for generations to come.

The tar sands need to stay where they are. No KXL pipeline...the best idea...the best response.
 
Tar sands oil production is unique in that we have gross pollution on both ends of the pipeline.
Hardly unique. Any oil production, transporting, refining and of course burning involves some pollution. When you consider full well-to-wheels picture oil sands do not put that much more carbon pollution than conventional oils. According to this, oil sands produce, on average, only 3% more carbon than US Gulf oil and 9% more than Saudi oil.

And as I said, we do not have enough conventional oil to meet global demands, so we will have to use oil sands for the foreseeable future. The only question is how to move it from A to B and where A will be (Canada or Venezuela for example).

This type of strip mining has already destroyed hundrends of square miles of boreal forests and polluted many aquifers and surface waters to the tune of hundreds of more square miles.
There is some strip mining but that is only a small fraction of total boreal forest area. Furthermore strip mining is a common technique and you don't get the same emotional overreaction when they strip mine for coal or copper etc.
Bingham_mine_5-10-03.jpg

This is a copper mine in Utah by the way. Doesn't look that much different than oil sands, but you don't hear low information liberals bitch about copper all the time.

There are huge reservoirs of processing waste at the extraction site
Waste water is a common product of most industrial processes, including conventional oil where oil injection is frequently used. Furthermore, water is reused several times before being discarded into tailing ponds. See here.

and there is also a large carbon footprint for the initial process at the site.

Most of oil's carbon footprint comes from final burning of refined products. Therefore, the carbon footprint of the initial extraction is secondary. Furthermore, moving the oil sands by rail instead of by pipeline would actually increase overall well-to-wheel emissions.

In fact the energy this process consumes is so massive, nuclear energy (still another pollution) has been considered to provide the energy at the site.
I like that idea. It would be a good way to use heat that would otherwise go to waste and could make electricity as well. It would certainly reduce overall carbon footprint of the extraction process. So what's wrong with that?
By the way, this is in reference to a different process from strip mining. Where oil sands deposits are very close to surface they get strip mined. Where they are deeper, they have to use an "in situ" technique where steam is injected into the deposits. This technique has a far smaller land footprint that strip mining of course.

It is a marginal energy gain for the amount of pollution created.
No, it's a considerable energy gain for a marginal amount of pollution produced.

And that is just at the site. Building a big gulp pipeline for these people gives them the means to expand many times as fast as they have thusfar.
And what's wrong with that? Mature conventional fields will keep declining in production which means that the only way to maintain worldwide production is to develop new fields and increase production from existing that have not been maxed out yet.
For example about half of Saudi production comes from a field (Ghawar) that is over 60 years old now. Most other supergiant fields in KSA and worldwide are old as well. Which means we increasingly need to rely on difficult and nonconventional oil. Age of sticking a pipe into desert (Texas or Arabian likewise) and getting a gusher are long gone. Now we need to go deeper, further north, we have to pump water or CO2, we have to use lower grade hydrocarbons like bitumen. That's reality of our age of transition away from the oil economy. But be not deceived, this transitional age will itself last decades.

The land and water devastation this process leaves behind is extreme and will be a problem for generations to come.
Not significantly more so than other mining operations. Remember that many of the oil sands there are very close to the surface and rivers like Athabasca actually cut their way through the raw deposits (one can see bitumen along the banks). That means that all the hydrocarbons are naturally leaching into the watershed and have done so for tens of thousands of years. Industrial production did increase pollution some, but that is inevitable, and it is not as if it introduced foreign pollutants into some sort of virginal, unspoiled landscape.
Furthermore, oil sands companies must, by law, restore the land once they are done with it. Will PDVSA be required to do that with the Orinoco Belt oil sands developments (that McKibben and other Canadian oil sands foes seemingly have no problems with)?

The tar sands need to stay where they are.
As I said, even if ecomentalists managed to kill Canadian oil sands (unlikely as it is) all they would accomplish is shift production to other players like Venezuela that don't have nearly as strict environmental regulations. I.e. ecomentalists would be, as so often, cutting off their nose to spite their face.

No KXL pipeline...the best idea...the best response.
No, the best idea and best response would be to approve KXL already.
 
We are talking here about creating conditions that destroy infrastructure and ecosystems that currently support billions of people, and you glibly carry on with your econotalk, as if it were all there was to living in this world.
The only reason we have billions of people living on the Earth is abundant energy, which includes oil. Without it, Earth's carrying capacity would be much less.

The tar sands need to stay where they are.
You keep repeating it like a mantra. No, they do not need to stay where they are and they will not stay where they are.

What is so hard to understand about that?
I understand but I reject it as fallacious.

You are advocating dosing the world with drought, famine, shrinking forests, polluted waters, and shrinking landmasses. Perhaps you have not considered these things. Perhaps you had better start.
Sounds almost Biblical. ;) I am all for protecting the environment but I am also realistic in that we need oil for the foreseeable future. And oil sands will be a significant part of the mix going forward what with shrinking easy conventional reserves shrinking. And I am under no illusions that socialist Chavista oil sands are any less polluting than Canadian ones. Quite the opposite!
 
Obama's legacy. Everyone will remember W for the failed Occupation of Iraq and Obama will be damned by historians over the XL Pipeline.
 
So why add a new pipeline when an alternative route exists?
Why build a highway to Chicago when a highway to Kansas City exists? The alternative routes serve different markets. Also all pipelines have capacity limits. KXL has a capacity of 800 kbbl/day whereas 2012 oil sands production stood at 1.8 Mbbl/day and is projected to increase to 5 Mbbl/day by 2030. Plenty of the black stuff to go around then!
We keep hearing that there 1000s of pipeline already in the area as if that is not a big deal. It is the additional (or marginal) pipeline that is important - as anyone who has passed ECON 101 knows.
Huh? That makes no sense - you are misusing the term "marginal". As far as total risk to the aquifer all the pipelines must be considered, with the caveat that newer pipelines will be safer than old ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Obama's legacy. Everyone will remember W for the failed Occupation of Iraq and Obama will be damned by historians over the XL Pipeline.
I actually agree. They will remember him dithering, afraid of ecomentalists in his base and billionaires like Steyer. Not a pretty picture!
 
Why build a highway to Chicago when a highway to Kansas City exists?......
That response is illogical.
Huh? That makes no sense - you are misusing the term "marginal".
Wrong. Marginal can also mean "additional" (which is in the sentence), especially in economics. My remark was a response to someone who claims to know economics.
As far as total risk to the aquifer all the pipelines must be considered, with the caveat that newer pipelines will be safer than old ones.
I was not talking about the total risk, but the added risk that this pipeline causes. It's called reasoning on the margin - a basic tool of economic analysis which helps to pinpoint the crucial areas of concern. You should learn how to use it.
 
Derek, you responded to everyone else and I take it you know a lot about pipeline transport and refining. So I will ask my question again: why is it not possible to expand existing pipeline to the current port facilities and refineries in Superior, WI?
I did, but let me reiterate: the pipeline to Superior serves a different market than the pipeline to the Gulf refineries. Furthermore, the pipeline to Superior is owned by Enbridge which is a competitor to Transcanada anyway. ;)
Also you can't just "expand" a pipeline. You'd have to lay another one parallel to it. As to why Transcanada is not using the same route as Keystone "classic" I am not sure, but it possibly has to do with it being a straighter route and possibly also with it touching onto the Bakken oil shale formation.
 
That response is illogical.
No. It is very logical. If you build a pipeline from A to B it is not a reason against it that you also plan one from A to C. Especially when there is enough production to serve both (and then some).

Wrong. Marginal can also mean "additional" (which is in the sentence), especially in economics. My remark was a response to someone who claims to know economics.
I was not talking about the total risk, but the added risk that this pipeline causes. It's called reasoning on the margin - a basic tool of economic analysis which helps to pinpoint the crucial areas of concern. You should learn how to use it.

I know what marginal means. I am not so sure you do. The marginal risk of one more new, advanced pipeline is small and does not increase the total risk appreciably. Reasoning on the margin would support your case if each additional unit increased total risk at an increasing rate. But that is not the case here and thus there is no good reason to reject it.
 
I actually agree. They will remember him dithering, afraid of ecomentalists in his base and billionaires like Steyer. Not a pretty picture!
Definitely. Obama will be remembered as the President where oil production increased during his Presidency and will be damned for not building a pipeline to ship non-domestic oil to Louisiana for processing and then sale outside the US.
 
I actually agree. They will remember him dithering, afraid of ecomentalists in his base and billionaires like Steyer. Not a pretty picture!

The only ones who'll remember things as you put them will be the racists who wrongfully accused him of being so ... a number that will be vanishingly small in twenty years, much less the minimum fifty years considered for something to be referenced as history.
 
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